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#377716 - 03/07/08 11:45 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
As far as I can determine, a big changed occurred in how KMAs were given a new face & direction. This took place in 1963. It was when the tournament rules were adapted to make sure KMAs were different from Japanese MAs. In this new rules, grabbing was prohibited, as was hitting below the waist. These changes were developed by those still training in Korean karate & calling it Tae Soo Do, among other names, like Kong Soo Do. Not the military men who founded original TKD.
It should be noted that Gen Choi Hong Hi, now Ambassador to Malyasia did not approve or accept these changes. The ITF rules were much different & developed primarily by Gen. Woo.

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#377717 - 03/08/08 04:32 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Thats an interesting point you bring up regarding the dates etc. When talking of TKD, we are talking 1940's to present day. For this specific subject we are talking 1940's to when the word MMA was used in the vein it is now (late 1990's I think). Thats a lot of years to cover.

I think its getting all messed up because "continuing on the ground" is getting sided with being the same as MMA (as it is today). Until they are accepted as different, they continue to add to the 'is it/is it' not type of argument. I say again, the focus of moderm MMA is much more advanced on the ground than any "follow ups" that were taught in TKD. As you (ITFunity) have said, if a fighter goes down and continues to resist, it stands to reason a ground fight will ensue.. the tactics, stragety and techniques of MMA were not about back then.. so how can they be the same!

Further to this, theres the instructors preference, would they allow it or would they not.. plus the instructors history and own learning and influences.

I think a certain poster here is looking for someone to say it was common practice, accepted on a wide/mainstream scale like patterns of something.. which, personally, I dont feel it was. I see it like "alternative/better" boon hae.. the main stream simply followed the normal stuff, but there were TKD instructors that wernt happy with some applications and taught their own because they were more effective in their opinion.. again, not a main stream practice, but there.. but that was the structure of TKD back then.

Most already know of Gen Chois thoughts of being on the ground within early TKD in the military, so anything more than takedown, finish.. I would bet wasnt brought in front of him or at least, the instructors wouldnt have pushed the boundries that way, except in their own schools.

Going back to the date thing at the start of this post, influences over such a massive time period must have been part of it all, so saying it wasnt there (even if there was concrete evidence) at the beginning, doesnt mean it didnt become part of it later on, doubly so with all the Judo black belts involved in TKD (remember Judo already had Ne-waza and randori, so it wouldnt be surprising if these were influences - after all the throws of judo found their way to TKD).

One cannot define TKD as how it was when it very first started, it evolvd over numerous decades and for some, it still is.

The simple point is, if some TKD instructors incorportated following on from a prone position as part of their classes, then this was continued by their students etc. it became part of TKD.. when this occured, who can say really, was it main stream, probibly not, was it accepted practice.. yes by some, probibly not by others. All this is backed up by numerous posters on here across the world who have had it as part of their training (ie. not one single source).

Going back to the "wheres the video" argument.. all the videos posted in the era's wanted (50's 60's) are of demonstration (ie. the main stream stuff), but they were filmed on TV like cameras, no one had a camcorder to take to their club... if they were more common back then and filming was allowed in schools, thats most likely where you would find the evidence sought.. sadly, I dont think it exsists, although hopefully someone will find some.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377718 - 03/08/08 06:01 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Considering the Korean army was serving alongside the British and US army during the Korean war, perhaps it might be useful to see what these guys were using and being taught for SD by the military. I think if you look at British commando training you won't find long wrestling routines but 'get 'em down and kill 'em' routines. It might be useful in accepting a military mind set.
_________________________
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#377719 - 03/08/08 09:53 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:

How come it seems that the only defenders or the most vocal defenders are ITF based?




Quote:

ITFUNITITY All respect but....I agree with much of what you post on this forum but feel that I must comment on your statement about why is it that ITF people are the ones that seem to always be defending TKD. What do you mean that this is the ITF syllabus? What were you referring to?





Wow, whoa, slow down!
Please read what I said! I never bad mouthed anyone or any style. I simple said with reference to this thread, that TKD does deserve somewhat its poor reputation in many instances for SD. This criticism was not limited to you, your school, the Kukkiwon, the WTF, the ITF, as all of these places, including mine, have weaknesses. All to some extent have been softened or corrupted over time. hence, the rise of MMAs to fill a void.
Now it seemed that the back & forth that was being exchanged, seemed to me to be myself, Mr. Anslow, Mr. Boik & other ITF type of TKD posters that were defending or explaning the present day perception of TKD with respect to loosing face/popularity.
I was merely wondering why non-ITF style students were not more vocal in the exchange.

I will not respond to the rest of your post, as it seems you have some pent up resentment to the ITF. I never have posted my way is the best way, or even better. In addition, I am a frequent critic of many things I see in the ITF. I try to refrain from commenting on things I have little experience with. Most of my entire exposure in the MAs has been to ITF TKD. It serves my purpose & I am continuing a life long pursuit of it, so I may better understand it more fully. I certainly am not a jack of all trades.





ITFUNITY


I realize that my post came across as too anti ITF for this I am sorry. To explain the tone of my posting I can only offer the following.

Most of the recognized experts and most vocal on this forum mainly consist of long time ITF people. Many times I have read things implicating or insinuating WTF organizations as a major cause of the down grading of TKD"s reputation. When one responds or wants to interject from a WTF perspective we get shunned as you did to me by refusing to even acknowledge any of my points. This is one reason you won"t get more input from WTF people, we are simply not significant enough to long time posters. I did not want to offend any one , I just wanted to post some of the frustrations that many WTF people encounter on this forum. I actually chose you because you are always willing to comment and even you wouldn"t. Again sorry if you feel I was too negative towards ITF it was more about wanting WTF participating organizations to be better understood and herd.

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#377720 - 03/08/08 10:34 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY

I also noticed that not one other person would acknowledge even one point accept badachaig and he is WTF. This is what I am talking about. To acknowledge would mean one may have to publicly document that there is some positive contributions from WTF organizations, very frustrating.

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#377721 - 03/08/08 11:10 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Iv re-read posts and its interesting how times and dates have moved and points have changed.This is why im accusing people of twisting and just getting playgroundy.
Stuart,you accused me of bringing up MMA and sport.Re-read.I dont come in until page 13 or so.Its already being discussed.
Thats just one example of why theres no point if things are going to get twisted.It could on forever.Playgroung bull
Want examples more of you doing that?
This is just to point out and back myself up on that what I say has solid grounding.



ITFUNITY.
Quote:

Now you are correct that naming TKD does not make it TKD. What made it TKD was what he & his committee did in the military. This was different from those that where there when he named it. This committee was his team of military men, who were also martial artists. They were led by him & Col. Nam Tae Hi. They were assisted by Han Cha Kyo & Sgt Major Kim Bok Man, Gen Woo & numerous others. It was this committee or team that devised TKD. What they did was spread throughout Korea, via the military & police, where GM Lee Byung Moo was the chief instructor for the police. As these men went overseas, starting in 1959, this was the TKD they took with them. It was them & their efforts that made TKD popular




Now you say.

Quote:

Now when these pioneers went abroad & started to teach commercially in order to earn a living AND support family back home, the focus & methods changed, as did the student base & the purpose of teaching.




Can you see why its hard to accept and understand.You guys change it all or say the Koreans im referencing did not know.

You also refer to 50' 60 as its development years on about page 3 but take it back to the 1940s when I mention clips of photos.
Also you agree with Flynch that his instructor said it was Free striking sparring plus Judo.Stuart and you say they are Judo black belts.So its Judo plus military TKD(Oh Do Kwan).
Yet later TKD was an MMA as in mixing.
So hoefull you can see my thinking or you guys make up your minds.
Re read and things will become clear as to who said what ,when,where.Who brought this up or that up.

So stuart you are now saying it was a secter kept from the general?
Your saying it was Pioneered by individuals and outside training methods and influences?
Thats what iv been saying.Its developed you yourclip.
Not the other way round.
Re read the whole thread if you like.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377722 - 03/08/08 11:22 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And there is still confusion over the free sparring your claiming is MMA type anything goes allowing all techniques.Doing that has to be sport techniques,which is not Original TKD.
OR to do it with ALL true TKD techniques you still need the 'lack of controll',that your calling it,or compliance.And that would not resemble MMA type ,continuing sparring.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Please don't mistake free sparring with the different types of tournament rules that the TKD entities follow. I am talking about students gearing up & sparring freely. In other words they are free to use all available techniques, within reason of course, under as realistic conditions as possible. So no, we don't poke each other in the eyes, or choke them till they die, etc. So when they fight, if someone grabs a leg or effects a takedown, the fight continues on the floor & if someone wants to pin or pound, the fight continues. We are not a MMA school or using UFC rules. we simply train SD in a way that is not limited to tournament style. What is so hard to grasp about the above?




Its not hard to understand.Buts thats not continous MMA tryp sparring.Your claiming they were doing that originaly.
Continuous MMA sparring is carrying on and on,so a guy is on you and hits you snd you turn it round ,now your back in controll,hang on, its tuned again etc.
TKD originaly had no pads,and was not sport type sparringin this instance.So using ALL TKD non sport techniques would make it impossible to do the continuous sparring.Can you not see that?
How can it be so lethal and hardcore yet on the other hand be ableto be done continuously?Plus the idea,we know, of themilitary style was quick finish in vital areas,power power power.
So ,again,hope you can see why its hard to understand.Even if you dont agree.
Everything points points to a controlled finish.What I called compliance of the attacker to pressume he was stopped.
Its the closest you will get using TKD SD techniques.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377723 - 03/08/08 11:24 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
matxtx -

You are really coming across as a knob.

You are seeking to lump all TKD as one thing, when CLEARLY if you read the damn thread, it has been practiced in many forms over time. I don't see how you are not getting this through your skull. You are not wrong about YOUR TKD experience. StuartA is not wrong about his. ITFunity is not wrong about his, etc.........

TKD is not MMA in the UFC sense, although you will find schools that have practiced in a similar manner. You will also find terrible McDojos. One does not negate the other - they both exist. Just like in karate, kung-fu, etc.

You will do yourself a big favor when you learn to stop thinking in absolutes.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#377724 - 03/08/08 12:02 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: MattJ]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I dont think there was much call for that.
How big of you to say that over the net.
Up yours.

If thats the case they are knobs too as theyv been as persistant with their points to override mine.
If its just me then its your problem or anyone else who thinks that way.
Its was probaly said partly to get goodbye from me anyway, so goodbye.


Edited by matxtx (03/08/08 12:03 PM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377725 - 03/08/08 12:32 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
matxtx-

Quote:

Up yours.




*snork*


Anyway,

They have actually MADE points, instead of immaturely arguing semantics, as you are doing. You do not seem to know much about the history of TKD, but refuse to believe those that have deep knowledge of the subject.

You are coming across as the stereotypical hyperventilating UFC zealot. Calm down and READ what people are saying instead of just blindly trying to discredit things that no one is trying to justify.

Have a nice day.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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