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#377696 - 03/06/08 07:23 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

There is some tosh in those posts and some points,some twisted interpretations,some hypocrisy and finaly some admittence and realism.



Translation: Made some points, they were answered.. didnt like them.. didnt fit with my feelings.. write line above instead of continuing discussion.

Quote:

Well it has been and is like playground bull so im going to step back and not commemt on your negative points about me or fuel anymore.



I dont recall making negative points about you personally!!!

------------------- anyway, to carry on with the rest of the folk discussing things here, I think things are getting confused.

1. When ITFunity mentioned MMA he was refering to how TKD mixed different arts togethor (or parts of) in its formation.. not that it was the same as the current MMA (as seen on TV etc.). This has been explained, but continually ignored by certain posters.

2. A few disagree on whether the current definition of MMA was the original one.. based on the UFC.. though this is besides the point as all things evolve and really the only relevance it has to this discussion was that if it evolved via the early UFC it actually makes ITFunitys original definition correct! If its the later definition then its different as TKD doesnt really (IMO) work the same three areas equally as an MMA'er would (or should).

3. No one has said TKD is the forerunner of the current MMA scene, but many have alluded that TKD has allowed floor based stuff (including but not limited to, continuing a fight/spar if it went to the ground) and this was happening before the MMA scene came about.. again, no one is claiming this is anything to do with the development of the current MMA scene.. just that TKD was not limited to pure stand up only. Again this is ignored over and over.

4. I and others that have been privilidge to see and/or be involved in this stuff do not refer to it as MMA, nor do we see it as MMA (as in its current form).. just a continuation of free sparring. I and others that I know do not see the above (no. 3) as MMA, simply part of TKD and even when comparing, the ground time in this part of sparring is often limited.. in MMA its not.

5. When asked for conformation that this type of sparring had gone on and was "allowed" and part of TKD .. but from higher and older sources.. ITFunity offered to point to references in the Ch'ang Hon manuals and Mr Flynch actually asked a first generation pioneer of TKD.. again, ignored.. when it was exactly what was asked.

6. No one is disputing MMA is a decent form of fighting, some merely dispute it forms the best basis for Self Defence.. if you do not diffientiate self defence from fighting, then obviously this can be comprehended.

I think that about sums up my and, erm, I wont say any name so they dont feel oblidged to respond to anything.. discussion

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377697 - 03/06/08 07:25 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Quote:


There is some tosh in those posts and some points,some twisted interpretations,some hypocrisy and finaly some admittence and realism.

Well it has been and is like playground bull so im going to step back and not commemt on your negative points about me or fuel anymore.




Matxtx, I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to criticise you, rather there is a debate about your arguments.




Though it does seem theres one rule for the goose and another for the gander!! I could warrent much the same 1st line to his part of the discussion!!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377698 - 03/06/08 08:30 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

Von1 and Badachagi, I think Unity was just saying he didn't hear alot from your side but your posts have proven otherwise. This is what we need to hear/read. We need to hear about the schools that teach the Art, not just Olympic sparring, or TKD daycares but the complete art.




You got it Mr. Boik! I am glad someone can understand my dribble. n Thanks!




As a clarification, I wanted to say that my previous post was not responding to ITFUnity or any ITF practitioners in general (as von1's post appeared to be). Rather, I was offering some supporting points to von1's rebuttal of the general criticism "WTF schools only teach Olympic sparring."

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#377699 - 03/07/08 12:19 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Matxtx:
Quote:

Quote:

Though still cant see how he would not have heard from fellow koreans or taken up those methods.
Its like it was a big secret no one told anyone,demonstrated or photed,filmed etc yet in later on,especialy in recent times to co incide with peoples wake up to grappling,it appears tkd was doing it all.




I don't know why you can comprehend what i am writing. Others seem to, so why not you?
Remember, I am not defending TKD, the umbrella name, as it includes too many types, ways & methods. Nor am I defending TKD as a Martial or Olympic sport, as I am not versed enough. I am simply trying to relay to you, that original TKD was developed in the Korean Army as a military system of SD. It was effective. It was feared. It was a combination of techniques from various fighting methods of the time, with the main one being Karate. you point to lack of photos, films etc at a time when they just did not exist in a poor developing country that was ravaged by a brutal occupation & devasting civil war. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you think that a lack of the above equates it wasn't that way? Why do you inject people like GM Jhoon Rhee, a jr BB from the Chung Do kwan, which was basically a civilian Karate school? He came to the States in the 50s as a student. Students are young. How much experience or training do you think he did? How long was he really around seniors? Now this is not a slag against him or other Koreans that came over early on. They were not gaints in the MAs field. They became so, when they were living abroad, as they introduced an Art to novices of a different culture, with little to no exposure to this activity. GM Rhee has made great contributions & accomplishments to countless people. Even the 1st President Bush refers to him as Master Rhee. he is a very deeply spiritual person.

Quote:

What about He Ill Cho?He finished first as far as I know in the military test(?) .He in recent times has incorporated BJJ and stated grapplings importance.Would he and should of not been doing that for 50 odd years already?
I remember him specificaly commenting on MMA and and one his guys was goingto try for the UFC AFTER incorporating grappling.He said nothing of having already done it.




Again, you are talking about a military man that went abroad & was teaching a commerical MA. As you may be aware of, at the time, late 60s & 70s, an explosion started in the MAs in places like the States, where GM Cho moved to. He simply taught what was the current emphasis with respect to the growing tournament scene. This of course did not include grappling, as it was against the rules.

Please stop mixing apples & oranges!

Original TKD, which eventually went from the Oh Do kwan to Chang Hon ITF TKD, started in the military. When it went overseas it natuarally morphed into another emphasis, as the student population was radically different. The reasons it slipped overyears are numerous & the decline in areas in not limited ITF TKD, TKD in general or any MA for that matter. The softening contributed to the popularity of the MMA of today. Original TKD was never a MMA as the concept that is held today. The MMA I referred to, is simply a combination of the techniques of different systems of then!

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#377700 - 03/07/08 12:24 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

And there is still confusion over the free sparring your claiming is MMA type anything goes allowing all techniques.Doing that has to be sport techniques,which is not Original TKD.
OR to do it with ALL true TKD techniques you still need the 'lack of controll',that your calling it,or compliance.And that would not resemble MMA type ,continuing sparring.




Please don't mistake free sparring with the different types of tournament rules that the TKD entities follow. I am talking about students gearing up & sparring freely. In other words they are free to use all available techniques, within reason of course, under as realistic conditions as possible. So no, we don't poke each other in the eyes, or choke them till they die, etc. So when they fight, if someone grabs a leg or effects a takedown, the fight continues on the floor & if someone wants to pin or pound, the fight continues. We are not a MMA school or using UFC rules. we simply train SD in a way that is not limited to tournament style. What is so hard to grasp about the above?

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#377701 - 03/07/08 12:26 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Thanks Mr. Anslow! Well said.

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#377702 - 03/07/08 12:31 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

As a clarification, I wanted to say that my previous post was not responding to ITFUnity or any ITF practitioners in general (as von1's post appeared to be). Rather, I was offering some supporting points to von1's rebuttal of the general criticism "WTF schools only teach Olympic sparring."




Thanks! I am glad other styles of TKD are speaking up.

The problem is not that TKD is poor with respect to SD, but that many McDojangs just want money or teach something besides SD or just babysit. Since TKD is the world's most popular MA, there is a lot of McDojangs. However, this criticism is not limited to TKD, as I have seen many McDojos as well. I however would not critique an Art, based upon a school(s) poor teachings of the Art or basic ripoff of students for money. JMHO

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#377703 - 03/07/08 03:36 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

What about He Ill Cho?He finished first as far as I know in the military test(?) .He in recent times has incorporated BJJ and stated grapplings importance.Would he and should of not been doing that for 50 odd years already?




Hee Il Cho had been working a lot with Hapkido for many years befoe UFC. He was also one of the experts BB magazine asked, following the first UFC, about how they would deal with a Gracie attack.

You seem to be overlooking the effect UFC had when it first came out. A system might have had grappling and groundwork but what UFC did was bring such techniques to the fore and make them more prominent. It also made people reconsider their needs.

Like I've said before, in areas like Scandinavia or the Balkans you were much more likely to meet a wrestler than an MAist, so MAists there needed to consider that WAAAAAAAAAAY before MMA and UFC. However, in other areas stand-and-strike arts were more common. Now the balance has shifted somewhat.

You might also ask why people like Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace et al weren't doing MMA. Both studied Judo in the 1950/60's (I believe) and most of that generation would certainly have done wrestling in school/college.


Edited by trevek (03/07/08 03:42 AM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377704 - 03/07/08 11:20 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

Quote:

And there is still confusion over the free sparring your claiming is MMA type anything goes allowing all techniques.Doing that has to be sport techniques,which is not Original TKD.
OR to do it with ALL true TKD techniques you still need the 'lack of controll',that your calling it,or compliance.And that would not resemble MMA type ,continuing sparring.




Please don't mistake free sparring with the different types of tournament rules that the TKD entities follow. I am talking about students gearing up & sparring freely. In other words they are free to use all available techniques, within reason of course, under as realistic conditions as possible. So no, we don't poke each other in the eyes, or choke them till they die, etc. So when they fight, if someone grabs a leg or effects a takedown, the fight continues on the floor & if someone wants to pin or pound, the fight continues. We are not a MMA school or using UFC rules. we simply train SD in a way that is not limited to tournament style. What is so hard to grasp about the above?




Master Barkley was interviewed in Traditional TKD and made a statement that goes along with what is being said. He said that GM( Master) Park Jong Soo taught in Toronto and many of his students were White Collar workers so he geared his workouts towards this clientel. GM (Master) Nam SuK Lee taught in Hamilton, which was more Blue collar, and geared his class towards them, more rough and tumble, so to speak.
This doesn't mean GM Park didn't have the ground teachniques or throwing techniques, He taught what he felt his students needed and geared his classes to them.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#377705 - 03/07/08 11:42 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Good point Mr. Boik!

However, one minor clarification if you may. GM Lee Nam Suk, although a very prominent & influential early Korean MAist, was not a member of the original TKD or Oh Do kwan that would become Chang Hon. He was a member (co-founder) of the Chang Moo Kwan & was one who did adopt the name early on. However he was basically ShotoKan or Japanese Karate, with some Chinese influence. He was influential inn the formation of the WTF.
So this example IMHO would be better placed with either the umbrella name or the WTF defense side.

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