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#377486 - 02/23/08 06:33 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
The original point was, TKD is losing its face, but only because there was this "evolution" of thinking when it came to realistic fighting, most notably when stuff like MMA and UFC came into the spotlight. After MMA established itself, realistic fighting to them was all about knowledge of groundfighting, submissions and brutal striking skills.
People looked for the one of the most brutal and efficient striking arts available(which came in the form of Muay Thai), and they rejected anything that they thought were parlor tricks(flashy kicks, etc). Then people saw how vunerable TKD was on the ground. These things eventually picked at the rotting image of TKD.
So what do we do to prevent further damage to our art? Do we revise our syllabus? Technique? The answer, in my opinion(and I say this because it's open for debates) is no. Everything we needed to know to become sufficient fighters was already laid down for us. Gen. Choi had many talented fighters that contributed to the style of TKD. I'm pretty sure ITFunity said this once too.

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#377487 - 02/23/08 08:30 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EvenRats]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Slow down there and back the bus up. People saw how vulnerable TKD was on the ground? So Karate or Muay Thai or any of the other arts didn't have the same problems? And do you really think that much attention was given to TKD?

Agreed, NOTHING has to be done to prevent further damage to TKD because of MMA and the UFC. What does need to happen is that people teaching need to teach ALL of TKD and not just bits and pieces. AND I don't think it has anything to do with General Choi; many were involved at that time and prior to his time.

TKD is what it is. Karate is what it is. BJJ is what it is. Judo is what it is. Every martial art is what it is and that is their identity; good or bad or indifferent. None of these have to change to save grace as long as they are being trained as they should be. They don't have to be compared to MMA because MMA is what it is. Not everybody wants to train MMA so they don't have to. Think of it like a car with MMA being a decked out power machine with all of the bells and whistles. Well guess what, not everybody wants to drive it. Some want something practical and gas efficient. Some want a smaller vehicle. Martial arts are the same way and we have options of what we want to purchase because that is what we are doing, purchasing a commodity and it is buyer beware.
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#377488 - 02/23/08 11:46 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EvenRats]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

So what do we do to prevent further damage to our art? Do we revise our syllabus? Technique? The answer, in my opinion(and I say this because it's open for debates) is no. Everything we needed to know to become sufficient fighters was already laid down for us. Gen. Choi had many talented fighters that contributed to the style of TKD. I'm pretty sure ITFunity said this once too.




EvenRats:
From watching the video you provided earlier, it is clear that you are a student of the ITF. You, thru your training have little in common with what most people consider TKD. The largest number of students who train in TKD do some form of Korean Karate or independent TKD. The next biggest group is those who follow the WTF rules of sparring. The smallest group is the ITF. So just by the raw numbers, try not to mix yourself up with the broad name of TKD. Most use it as an umbrella name, with no real connection to many others practicing only something that shares a name.

TKD is NOT losing popularity. It is the largest MA with the most students, practiced in the most countries around the world. A lot of that credit goes to the WTF, the SK govt & the fact that it is an Olympic sport.

TKD has gained a rather well earned poor reputation among forums such as this & those students who seek a real tuff MA that is SD based. I think the commericalization of the MAs in general has caused this. The plain & simple reason that TKD shares a large part of the blame, is because of the raw numbers. More commericalism, the more TKD students fit the bill, because there are simply more TKD students than any other MA. The commericalism is also a reason the MMAs have grown in popularity. There always has been & probably always will be a segment that will seek real SD training. Commerical MA schools no longer provided it, so MMA schools started to fill the void. JMHO

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#377489 - 02/23/08 11:51 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

1) AND I don't think it has anything to do with General Choi; many were involved at that time and prior to his time.

2) TKD is what it is. Karate is what it is. BJJ is what it is. Judo is what it is.




1) Sorry, there really was no TKD prior to Gen Choi. He named it in 1955.

2) This usage implies that you are using TKD as an umbrella name. Am I understanding you correctly?

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#377490 - 02/24/08 11:25 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Interesting conversation"

Is it possible that TKD is losing it's popularity mostly among it's own practitioners?
Is there really that many of us that feel we could not hold our own against an ave. MMA or grappler? because this is what it really is about for many on this forum. I personally feel that most persons with average TKD skill I train with would fair just fine against these persons in real SD, but probably not so well in one of their competitions using their rule sets, as they would not do so well in a WTF competition using our rules.
I am probably going to catch it for these comments from MMA enthusiasts but I really am sincere in this observation and train with very competent TKD people as do many of you.

This adds to my confusion when I here some of the negatives regarding TKD and its practicality. Is there room for improvement you bet, but as a training MA I see many MMA competitors and matches that are less than deserving just as with any other competition and I am only seeing there best competitors not some ave. MMA joe.
My gut tells me that many of us have been distracted by the remarkable job MMA has done in promoting it;s self and are comparing our skills to the efficiency of competing in the octagon. Yes MMA rules allow for more realistic fighting during competition but even many of these competitors would not react the same to a SD situation as they do in the ring,( this would be the smart thing) because they possess many more effective options and techniques, just as we do!
To summarize I just feel that many of my fellow TKD people are for getting the many skills, techniques, and situations that we train for and are reducing our selves to the octagon and calling that the real deal.


Edited by von1 (02/24/08 12:02 PM)

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#377491 - 02/24/08 12:06 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I actually wonder if it wouldn't be a good think for TKD to lose its popularity, shed its commercial image and to go back to basics with a small number of people training in a 'purer' way.
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#377492 - 02/24/08 01:48 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

I actually wonder if it wouldn't be a good think for TKD to lose its popularity, shed its commercial image and to go back to basics with a small number of people training in a 'purer' way.




Trevek:


In a funny way you just answered my stated question, Is it possible that TKD is losing it"s popularity among it"s own practitioners?
TKD continues to be the number 1 MA and continues to grow but is constantly being picked apart mostly by us, the people that train in it. We on some unconscious level have begun to question our skills based on octagon competition. Not that one should not look inward but we seem to be the main ones questing our skills not others. The only way many of us will feel adequate is if we end up with some raining champ in the UFC! Personaly in my younger years would ground and pound in a fight, most people do it is almost or is instinctual. I joined MA to become more than a ground and pound kind of guy and have accomplished this and much more from TKD.

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#377493 - 02/24/08 02:06 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
von, it's not so much a matter of TKD losing popularity amongst its (sincere) practitioners, it is more a worry that the over commercialisation of our beloved art leads to both a general watering down and also to a dismissal of it as a practical MA.

I don't think as many of us are in crisis due to the Octagon. As I mentioned once, in Finland I found TKD guys training in wrestling before UFC had taken a hold (I think the first one had just happened) because of the reality of the need.

Likewise, somewhere like Eastern Europe would also be a place where wrestling was more likely to be found on the street before UFC. It's interesting that one of the biggest stars of Polish MMA is an ITF fighter who sometimes wears his dobok in the ring.

By and large, I don't think the over-commercialised McDojang has taken such a hold in Europe as it has in USA (YET!!!!) and my experiences training across Europe have always been positive. But I would hate to one day find that my training (which has never been exactly 'extreme') is one day replaced by politically-correct, Tae-Kwon-Robics, where money and spandex replaces martial spirit.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377494 - 02/24/08 02:18 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Trevek

Fair enough, just want you to know that I was not referring to you personally regarding MMA, I was responding to many posts on fighting arts forum. I see what you are talking about regarding commercialization but personally have not witnessed it to the degree as you have.

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#377495 - 02/24/08 02:21 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EvenRats]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Are you saying TKD doesn't make the cut when it comes to MMA?





Against another skilled person who is combining grappling and striking tacticaly it does not do well.Thats what Im saying.
MMA/NHB, UFC, forgett all those phrases as they bring up sport things.These just happen to be where you can safely test your stuff against the best.
There are sly digs at this all the time.''I dont want to fight in the octogan''.
''I wont meet an MMA person on 'da street''.
''Not everyone wants to ground and pound'' bla bla.

How do you know who you will meet or how good they are?You dont.Or whats going to happen in a chaotic,violent assault.So does it not make sense,and is more challenging and fun,to train with the best in mind?
So the ultimate test for a martial artist,unarmed is to face someone who tacicaly combines striking and grappling is it not?
What else is there.

My point is that TKD looses face when people make out it can hold its own in that enviroment.When people say TKD cant be done within rules because its for killing or something.Things like that.Its plain embarrasing.If you want to risk it thats fine.Want to just do TKD thats fine.But the truth has got to be there and in perspective though or TKD loses face.
Yes,technique wise they can powerfull.But you need to get position to do them and use them tacticaly,set them up,still be defensive etc etc.Theres non of this which takes into account facing a grappler who can strike.

People have been mentioned who have TKD backgrounds.Good.Lets get some footage up and see what they are doing.How are they using it?What are they using?What level of opponents are they facing?What styles are they doing good against or bad against?
Are they using TKD grappling?
Not as a negative thing,as a study.


Edited by matxtx (02/24/08 02:43 PM)
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