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#377846 - 03/14/08 07:16 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I guess if you want to call super fast powerful kicks that these people could pull off before 99% of the average bullies could punch them,



No.. I would put that in the asset box..unless they dropped their guard :-/

-------------
Quote:

It's supposed to be a fight between two Wing Chun masters. I don't see much Wing Chun going on. ;-)



Actually, one jumped the other whilst he was teaching a seminar.. old news :-)

Quote:

The point was that I think you may be overestimating how much people's training will dictate their responses during a real SD situation.



I dont think so.. why do you think military etc drill over and over and over!!

Now, just to clarify.. I agreed with the sport TKD post, as it adds benefits as stated, I am also not lumping all WTF students as having no SD skills, I am simply saying the way you train is usually the way you fight.. sport fighting (WTf and others) create bad habits.. which unlike you guys, many do not realsie so cannot/ do not.. rectify.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377847 - 03/14/08 07:20 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I can't comment on Steven Lopez himself, but the dojang that his family runs does appear to include a healthy dose of SD in their regular TKD program:



From what I read its a seperate course to TKD and by your own admission.. someone else runs it (ie. not Mr Lopez).. Question: why is that?.. as in, why isnt it part of a regular class and why does it require a seperate course if its taught as standard in WTF!

Anyway, this isnt what I asked really! Perhaps the guy that runs it has experience like the other one that was posted.. all good and good to see the school has this program.. many do not (at least in the UK anyway)


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377848 - 03/14/08 07:22 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I think we may be arguing absolutes, with a bit of my father is tougher than your father.



Not at all, for me anyway, i appreciate the information everyone (Von, Badachagi etc.) is posting.


Bottom line is, we are all TKD.. just different systems.. and we can all elarn off each other.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377849 - 03/14/08 09:08 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:

I went to the Elite TKD website. Of course I was most intrested in the history section. If you check it out, it says TKD goes back 1,000+ years , that the K Taekwon-Do Assoc was formed in 1961, when that WAS the K Tae Soo Do Assoc. There were 2 K TKD Assocs before that! Then they go on to say that TKD was registered in 1962 when it was Tae Soo Do & that they held the 1st TKD championship in 1963, when it was, yes you figured it out, it was Tae Soo Do.
These are the things that drive history buffs & ITF members crazy The KTA did not become TKD till 1965/6 when Ambassador Choi returned to Korea from his diplomatic assignment & was elected 3rd president & he fought tooth & nail to change it & he was successful. This is why he & many are adamant that they, he & his followers, basically OhDo Kwan, were doing TKD, as they had a different training & others were not. Readers should understand this.




Additionally GM CK Choi actually won the first even Tae Kwon Do championship (heavy weight) in 1962 and then won the first Tae Soo Do championship in 1963.

Interestingly the TSD rules were full contact but no hitting to the face with the hands.

TSD was a name choosen to attempt to unify korean martial arts it was made up of Tae Kwon Do, Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do. The had to choose a different name because the Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do people refused to use Tae Kwon Do.

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#377850 - 03/14/08 09:18 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:


2) I see severe short comings in both methods of training but the short comings are mainly limited to the sparing rules of both.
I do not see many differences in the other aspects of training, they are pretty much the same for most of us from what people convey on this forum. Back to the sparing short comings, WTF lacks hands, ITF lacks commitment of power/ settled! Both are incomplete training methods by them selves.





I agree they both lack in the sparring I am as concerned about ITF style sparring where we stop or hold our punches. I think at some point maybe not every day you have to hit and be hit.

I do believe in the motto you fight as you train.

As far as other differnces like patterns this is of little concern as they are exercises and alot of ITF Masters teach them as simply the ART side of the Martial Art. So as such it really breaks down to individual preference and aesthetics


Edited by flynch (03/14/08 09:29 PM)

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#377851 - 03/14/08 11:12 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I still must ask the question as to where this is going to benefit us that are not yet a record of history? How is this going to benefit TKD and the various groups that make up TKD? could this harm some of these groups? How is this going to help TKD move forward? Will it vastly improve TKD"s popularity and how? If there is no answers to these questions than history is some what insignificant and I do not believe that you, or I, feel that way. I can not answer these questions because I lack historical knowledge but I am all for moving forward and improvement.
So where and how is acknowledging and/or rectifying this going to take us? How will it improve the various governing powers and organizations of TKD or is this a one sided mission to rectify a terrible wrong doing? I don"t care if it is the ladder, if it"s wrong it is wrong, and should be rectified, but I would like to know how this is going to benefit TKD as a whole.




Sorry I don't know the answer to that. I don't have a TKD crystal ball.
I can say that acknowledging the truth is an important 1st step in many healing processes, be it an addiction problem, friend with neighbor, mistake by worker etc. So apart from the all important historical reason & proper credit, that hopefully will help heal pain by many who were trashed, it may help move 2 major orgs closer. Possible cooperation can & should be better than the current harsh feelings.

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#377852 - 03/14/08 11:21 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Interestingly the TSD rules were full contact but no hitting to the face with the hands.




Yes, established mainly by the JiDo kwan.

Quote:

TSD was a name choosen to attempt to unify korean martial arts it was made up of Tae Kwon Do, Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do. The had to choose a different name because the Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do people refused to use Tae Kwon Do.




Yes, a very important point & one that maybe you can expand on. This is exactly why the original TKD pioneers feel that others were not doing TKD & later just took or used the name TKD that they made popular.

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#377853 - 03/14/08 11:33 PM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
ITFunity,
I believe that some of the Gererals earlier published materials reflected their practice of the Pinans. Can you tell me what year they discontinued using them?

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#377854 - 03/15/08 12:19 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: oldman]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes Sir, the 1st 3 Tuls were HwaRang, ChungMu & UlJi devised in the Oh Do kwan, circa 1954-56. Followed by gae baek in 1961. Now Ambassador Choi's 1st English book came out in 1965, with a new reprint now available. This book contained the 20 Chang Hon or ChonJi Tuls, that were finalized while he was assigned to his diplomatic post on Malyasia & the earlier Pihon Japanese forms. However, the ITF was formed in 1966, March 22 & these new Korean Tuls became part of the syllabus. In the 1972 text, commonly referred to as the bible of TKD, the full 24 Tuls were finally published. Some Koreans still continued to use the old forms & many still do use them today.

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#377855 - 03/15/08 05:46 AM Re: Taekwondo losing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


I do not see many differences in the other aspects of training, they are pretty much the same for most of us from what people convey on this forum. Back to the sparing short comings, WTF lacks hands, ITF lacks commitment of power/ settled!




But I honestly don't think it is settled, and I'm not just trying to be difficult. I think there is something here which is lost through lack of experience of actual ITF tournaments.

TKD rules state that tournaments should be carried out with semi-contact, however, I think that any of us who has witnessed more than a couple different tournaments, maybe organised under different groups, will know that this term "semi-contact" is not as clear-cut as you think. I have seen tournaments where refs gave warnings for the smallest signs of force; I have seen the median if you like where competitors getting hit is no problem except where techniques are wild; and I've also seen what ITFUnity has called the Bloodbaths- for instance I remember watching one black belt grading where one guy got KOd with a kick to the throat and almost every student came out with a bleeding nose.

So this is my point- in ITF competitions, people interpret the rules on contact pretty much how they see fit. Unfortunately in the WTF, there is no way of reinterpreting no hands to the head. There are parts of the ITF who are right now competing with rules that are not far from full-contact.

BTW, good debate- for a moment there I thought we were all going to agree

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