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#377706 - 03/07/08 01:44 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Translation: Made some points, they were answered.. didnt like them.. didnt fit with my feelings.. write line above instead of continuing discussion.




THAT is play ground bull.I dont want to be apart of that anymore or in discussion with you unless I have to clarify things.

Let me sum something up.
You write and book,go on forums and talk about how people dont know TKD,misinterpretit,are not doing real TKD etc et.Make a big song anddance about it.
Then you think it is ok to do exactly that,what you dont want done to TKD, to other styles.
Thats hyppocrasy.No two ways about it.And your trying to worm your way out of it.
I dont want to deal with people like that sorry.

Quote:

1. When ITFunity mentioned MMA he was refering to how TKD mixed different arts togethor (or parts of) in its formation.. not that it was the same as the current MMA (as seen on TV etc.). This has been explained, but continually ignored by certain posters.




That was cleared a while ago.So dont stir.Go and read back.
ITFUNITY was thinking in a different way to what I was.It was two people using the same phrase for different meanings.

Quote:

3. No one has said TKD is the forerunner of the current MMA scene, but many have alluded that TKD has allowed floor based stuff (including but not limited to, continuing a fight/spar if it went to the ground) and this was happening before the MMA scene came about.. again, no one is claiming this is anything to do with the development of the current MMA scene.. just that TKD was not limited to pure stand up only. Again this is ignored over and over




This started with yourclip Stuart.I said post a clip of this hardcore, original, military TKD and it would shut everyone up.
You posted yours.
Yes?
I said that is TKD with modern updates and progressin in other words influenced TKD,not how I believe it was.
Thats basiicaly it.
Iv made good points and slowly you admitted that but t hen didnot,then did etc.
ITFUNITY still seems addamant (not adam ant the singer) that is how they trained.
You,and others, keep twisting by it saying I am arguing that TKD never had some grappling or throws ort akedowns.
I am not.
I am arguing aboutthe way t hey did it andd ont agree it was in an MMA way going on and on rolling.Now yes.Not then.
I can make a good claim to thinking this and have been and will be more.

Quote:

5. When asked for conformation that this type of sparring had gone on and was "allowed" and part of TKD .. but from higher and older sources.. ITFunity offered to point to references in the Ch'ang Hon manuals and Mr Flynch actually asked a first generation pioneer of TKD.. again, ignored.. when it was exactly what was asked.





G b ackj and re read by comments on what Mr Flynch instructor said.We are waiting still.
Again your ignoring that iv adressed that and bringing itback up again.
Shat stiring.Thats two sources so far wow.There are tonns that state how it was trained that dontfit what you and ITF are saying.
The references he is just not posting.
Why cant he jusy type the quote.It might b e a while before I get to see the encyclopedia if I can.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377707 - 03/07/08 02:03 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAx466yXTD0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8dC1Pw1gyc

I was going to write a post on how eVidence points to how was it was trained yet found these to sum it up.

Now I expect ITFUnity to mention the unbrella and apples and oranges again.Not sure if he is shopping on a rainy day or what
(No offence a slight jest).

It demonstates that classic one hit approach they take.In then out.
Not the boxing type footwork movementthat WTF influenced on TKD.
Military,so Ivbeen told, style refers to grappling as defending against it with strikes and anti grappling breaks and strikes maybe.Not in the sense of a TKD guy deliberarly trying to grapple.From my understanding thats a no no.Strike to finish or stun philosophy as its a soldier with baggage and a weapon.
As I say,My understanding and what everything points towards.
It also shows there was a chance of someone filming it.Even shows some military guys watching.


Edited by matxtx (03/07/08 02:16 PM)

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#377708 - 03/07/08 02:30 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Matxtx:

With all due respect, we, as in me & you, seem to be debating 1 focal point. That is basically, did TKD in its early formative days include a more fuller range of SD, including fighting on the ground.

Now you intimate that knowlege of history is not your strong point, nor does the study of history have much to do with how you or others learn effective SD today.

Given that, you continue to deny that TKD early on, in its development in the Korean Army, included fighting on the ground. You keep asking for 21st century confirmation of it, via some type of electronic recording. This medium really did not exist. In many places people were still going to movie theaters to view the days events on news reels. TVs were rare & certainly rarer in Korea, a poor developing country ravaged by a brutal occupation & civil war. You also expect that there would be films of military training, which I think even today, many Armies would be reluctant to share.

With respect to your points concerning history, I have refuted each of them. You not only give my counters little credence, but you are still looking for videos of the military training as aceptable proof. Now your major arguement against these historical happenings, is that it is not done that way today & your experiences has not led you to believe it ever did.

Now you & I agree that TKD is loosing face & popularity due to a widely accepted perception that many TKD schools offer soft SD, sport or baby sitting services. This is not limited to only TKD schools. Since TKD is the most popular MA in the world, this affect can be seen more readily or appear more apparent, especially since some view TKD as a martial sport that has gained Olympic status.

Now I can not speak to other styles of TKD. I speak for the ITF or Chang Hon system that started in the military gym, called the Oh Do Kwan, led by an Korean Army Major-General. They developed a modern, at the time, 50s onward, with some connection to the 40s, military system of fighting. This system was developed by dozens, if not hundreds of talented army men, who all had some previous exposure to fighting & were talented, as they were hand picked from groups of thousands. This was & remains unprecidented in the MAs.

Now when these pioneers went abroad & started to teach commercially in order to earn a living AND support family back home, the focus & methods changed, as did the student base & the purpose of teaching. Why is this so hard for you to understand & accept?

Now ITF TKD has a different history & development from the TKD of the present day KTA, the WTF & the Kukkiwon. It also has a different history from those still doing Korean Karate, but using the popular name of TKD.

Remember, because you don't think so or feel it happened that way, doesn't mean it didn't.

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#377709 - 03/07/08 02:42 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Great vintage footage of old demos for the public, but not on military training sessions. I have seen these before & see how they do support your general conception.

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#377710 - 03/07/08 03:34 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

The references he is just not posting.
Why cant he jusy type the quote.It might b e a while before I get to see the encyclopedia if I can.




You again are sadly mistaken. I have repeatedly wrote what he said, but did not include quotes, as it was not a direct queote. I did give you the exact sections in would be found in, namely HooSinSul & Sparring. I offerred to give you the exact page numbers if you gave me an edition of the Encylopedia that you would have access to. You still have not provided same. Please remember, there are several editions of his texts. Therefore the page numbers & placing will vary according to what text you use & what edition it is.

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#377711 - 03/07/08 04:56 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAx466yXTD0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8dC1Pw1gyc

I was going to write a post on how eVidence points to how was it was trained yet found these to sum it up.

Now I expect ITFUnity to mention the unbrella and apples and oranges again.Not sure if he is shopping on a rainy day or what
(No offence a slight jest).

It demonstates that classic one hit approach they take.In then out.
Not the boxing type footwork movementthat WTF influenced on TKD.
Military,so Ivbeen told, style refers to grappling as defending against it with strikes and anti grappling breaks and strikes maybe.Not in the sense of a TKD guy deliberarly trying to grapple.From my understanding thats a no no.Strike to finish or stun philosophy as its a soldier with baggage and a weapon.
As I say,My understanding and what everything points towards.
It also shows there was a chance of someone filming it.Even shows some military guys watching.





I don't know about the first vid but the second one is Tang Soo Do. If the first was the Chung Do Kwan, it too was TSD.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#377712 - 03/07/08 06:05 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

THAT is play ground bull.I dont want to be apart of that anymore or in discussion with you unless I have to clarify things.



Ah! I get it.. what I call discussion, you call playground bull. When something you feel is refuted and proved different, you call it playground bull.. now I understand. How old are you?

Quote:

You write and book



Got nothing to do with it.

Quote:

,go on forums



I was on TKD related forums many many years before I released the book

Quote:

and talk about how people dont know TKD



Not at all. I only ever bring it up when people mention "TKD aint got this etc". I dont make a point of trying to set people on the right path or anything.

Quote:

Make a big song anddance about it.



You mean like you, jumping up and down because time and time again people are refuting what you think is right.. because you are wrong!

Quote:

Then you think it is ok to do exactly that,what you dont want done to TKD, to other styles.



Sorry, but are you thick or something? I have not slagged off any other styles, I hold martial arts with very much respect, so Ill repeat it obnce more as your ears seem to be permanantly closed to anything you dont want to hear: "I WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY MANY PEOPLE WOULD SEE MMA AS A SPORT" - it wasnt my opinion of it, though I can see that side of it! Why cant you comprehend that!!!

Quote:

Thats hyppocrasy.No two ways about it.And your trying to worm your way out of it.



Dont thin so. I beginning to think you cant read properly.. no offence, but you continually keep missing any points you dont agree with in kine and many others posts!

Quote:

I dont want to deal with people like that sorry.



I think the first thing you need to deal with is your closed mind!

Quote:

That was cleared a while ago.So dont stir.Go and read back.ITFUNITY was thinking in a different way to what I was.It was two people using the same phrase for different meanings.



Like i said in the points.. its the main points and this one is another it took an age for you to accept, when most others got it right away!

Quote:

This started with yourclip Stuart.I said post a clip of this hardcore, original, military TKD and it would shut everyone up. You posted yours. Yes?



So.. my clips not MMA.. doesnt claim to be MMA and has gott nothing to do with MMA!! Another point you cant seem to grasp!

Quote:

I said that is TKD with modern updates and progressin in other words influenced TKD,not how I believe it was. Thats basiicaly it.



And others, including pioneers have rebutted this.. bt still you refuse accept the very thing you asked for!

Quote:

Iv made good points and slowly you admitted that but t hen didnot,then did etc.



Dont think so.. so far most of your points have been incorrect or proved incorrect by others.

Quote:

ITFUNITY still seems addamant (not adam ant the singer) that is how they trained.



And ITFunity is a respected member of this forum, who I bet everyone will say has always been forthright and honest.. do you think hes lying now, just to prove you wrong!! I dont think so. Apart from that, he has trained TKD for nearly 40 years and trained with Gen Choi on numerous occassions, as well as many otehr pioneers.. but none of that is good enough for you! How long have you trained?

Quote:

You,and others, keep twisting by it saying I am arguing that TKD never had some grappling or throws ort akedowns.



The ony twisting going on is you mixing some finishing work and fighting on the floor with MMA!

Quote:

I am arguing aboutthe way t hey did it andd ont agree it was in an MMA way going on and on rolling.Now yes.Not then.[.quote]
I dont believe its an MMA way then or now... so what are you arguging about!

Quote:

I can make a good claim to thinking this and have been and will be more.



We`ll we ahve been waiting 22 pages of this thread for you to do so.. so unleash it and set us free from our misconceptions will you

Quote:

G b ackj and re read by comments on what Mr Flynch instructor said.We are waiting still.



Geesh!!!

Quote:

Again your ignoring that iv adressed that and bringing itback up again.



How can I be ignoring it if Im bringing it back up again... doh! Not that I know what you are referring to!!

Quote:

Thats two sources so far wow.There are tonns that state how it was trained that dontfit what you and ITF are saying.



Erm , Me, ITFunity, Mr Flynch, VDJ, Trevek, GM CK Choi and Gen Choi, some others on this thread.. as opposed to.................................................... .................. you!




Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377713 - 03/07/08 07:12 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Yes I do find it hard to understand and accept.
Got a problem with that guys?
Might as well endthe discussion.

Iv looked at interviews with The general,of He Ill Cho,Sihak Henry Cho,Nam Tae Hi,some others and non of them reference groundwork or doing it in the capacity you guys are claiming.All in rolling.
Even when they talk of the military sparring.Most refer to how it looks in that clip and one says its simliar to now except no pads.
One says it was basicaly Korean Karate.
Iv looked at clips of North Korean army training now and recent times and its not as you are saying.

So you can blame me for weighing everthing up and making the conclusions I do?

Is there not even any photos?Instructors I can reasearch doing it now,interviews to read?
I also know of someone via email claiming to teach military who has told me how it was.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

Top
#377714 - 03/07/08 08:26 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england


Edited by matxtx (03/07/08 08:28 PM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

Top
#377715 - 03/07/08 08:34 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
You AGAIN pick another poor example of a Korean MAists!

S. Henry Cho:
Wrote 3 books on Karate!
1- Korean Karate, 2- Better Karate for Boys & 3- Self Defense Karate

GM Cho can be described as umbrella TKD or WTF TKD, as he helped them form & help with the tournament sparring rules.

His training was at the JiDo Kwan, which was a ShotoKan deriviative or Korean Karate. The JiDo Kwan was a major influence in the WTF & the rules that helped distinguish what they were doing from the hated Japanese Karate.

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