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#377676 - 03/06/08 09:44 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I agree with you whole heartedly because while TKD has these techniques ( ground fighting, throws, etc. ) it is hard to concentrate on these areas for an extended period since the syllubus is so large many schools are only open for a few hours a night . As you said, if you want this training, find a MMA school that concentrates on these techniques.




True Mr. Boik! But please remember that this is the ITF syllabus, which we know is the smallest group of those who use the name TKD. So it doesn't apply to the over whelming majority of those doing a different TKD. So in effect this is a defense or counter for our style of TKD. Where is the defense of the other styles of TKD?
How come it seems that the only defenders or the most vocal defenders are ITF based?

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#377677 - 03/06/08 12:26 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260


True Mr. Boik! But please remember that this is the ITF syllabus, which we know is the smallest group of those who use the name TKD. So it doesn't apply to the over whelming majority of those doing a different TKD. So in effect this is a defense or counter for our style of TKD. Where is the defense of the other styles of TKD?
How come it seems that the only defenders or the most vocal defenders are ITF based?





ITFUNITITY
All respect but....


I agree with much of what you post on this forum but feel that I must comment on your statement about why is it that ITF people are the ones that seem to always be defending TKD. What do you mean that this is the ITF syllabus? What were you referring to?

1. ITF people think they are the only organization to teach effective SD, this is a false assumption and people need to realize that many WTF schools took what they believed to be effective SD from the ITF syllabus and discarded what they did"t think was effective then incorporated more things like hapkido judo etc. This is not a bad thing it is progress in many eyes. I know I am going to get the no WTF standard syllabus argument and it is a legitimate argument. My only response is that as a whole WTF affiliated schools are still evolving which means that TKD as an art is still evolving. I believe this is the problem, old school vs new school mentality and fear of change, is it for better? time will sort things out. Me personally, I am always looking for improvement and one must be willing to break tradition to find out if new is improved.

2. ITF is much more bitter and radical and very stuck in their past, notice the word - their.

3. I have observed many ITF training videos and can honestly say that our WTF affiliated school teaches as much if not more thorough SD techniques, mostly hapkido and judo based, very effective.

4. It drives me crazy how ITF persons are constantly blaming or assuming that it is WTF affiliated organizations that are the main problem with TKD because they are exposed to the olympics. This has been the under lying tone of this forum for a long time.

5. I honestly do not believe that enough ITF people truly understand WTF training and philosophy and insist that our training does not match or even exceed the ITF syllabus.

6. Our full contact sparing does serve a good purpose and can be very painful even with all the protective gear, broken ribs, jaws, teeth, head injuries, don"t even want to here the pitty patter crap that many like to spew. I have an injury that is more than three years old and will not heal! I admit our sparing does not resemble real fighting but one needs to remember, it is not suppose to! non WTF people do not get that, therefore can not relate. I could attempt to explain it but my suggestion would be that one participate in some of our tourneys, maybe then they will have an understanding of what it is and appreciate the value. Oh and did I mention that many students never even participate in competition, so what are they training for day in and day out, nothing?

6. People keep forgetting that the sparing is a very small part of what most WTF schools train but that is most of the criticism of WTF schools, there is much more going on and no one will give credit, they keep harping on our sparing even though they never even tried it. This drives me crazy!

7. Many of our instructors are former ITF instructors! there might be some good reasons to come to the dark side but many old school will never even try to understand what it"s about. It is no more money motivated than any ITF organization.

8. Many ITF organizations do not fully train their own syllabus but still criticize WTF affiliated schools for not having a standard syllabus or fully following the ITF syllabus. So if many are not training their own syllabus can you really even call it a standard syllabus? obviously not.

Conclusion, WTF, ITF need to cooperate and come to a conclusion as to what components from each is worthy and incorporate them into one strongly defined system or this devision will never end and TKD will always be viewed as inferior. To do this ITF will need to let go of much of their past and except some of the good regarding WTF. After all if TKD becomes unpopular no one will care except those of us left behind pointing fingers. You are write about history being important and it is time to re-write it and move on, except that TKD has changed forever and unite both systems into one, only then will we have a true, whole and respected TKD.

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#377678 - 03/06/08 01:18 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

There is no compliance in our (ITF) 1 steps. None! That is why we apparently do them different from others. Reference to my long back & forths with Dereck, concerning same.
ITF HooSinSul, when learning moves requires a certain amount of compliance, as I think it would be with what you do. However, when it is all put together in free sparring or HooSinsul, there is no compliance, as that is not training under realistic conditions. Which you must remember is the mandate of the founder. Compliance in HooSinSul is also there for demo purposes, but never should it exist during SD training.




Ok.So you actualy hit each other in the throat?You knee each other in the balls?You break each others arms?You actualy kick each others knees?You actually elbow each other full board in the face?You go for the eyes fully?I thow eacho ther full on onto thefloor and stamp on each others heads?
ETC ETC ETC?
That is the most hardcore place I know of.

I think maybe you are missinterpretting me.
Oh well.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377679 - 03/06/08 01:34 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

What are you getting at? There are of course better ways to learn SD. However, TKD is not JUST for SD. You want the best SD, find a school that will concentrate on that & use realistic conditions to insure you learn. PERIOD.

Now any MA can make someone better able to defend themselves, even a weak school or a school that emphasizes sport, as the work out will help build a person in many ways. The reason or 1 reason why MMAs have grown is because of the softness of many MAs schools, not limited to TKD.
So whats your point?

If you train in a tuff MMA or strict combat fighting school & go up against one from a weak or soft MA school, with all other things being equal, size, shape, toughness, strength etc, you win, plain & simple. I would even wager that you win when going against someone from my way of training, with all other things being equal, as your training concentrates on that aspect. However, I will pick my students for most of the other things that the ITF syllabus builds & develops.
Apples & Oranges!
I certainly am not afraid to acknowledge shortcomings my way, but I am proud of what we accomplish, as it is much more that we do then SD. What we do lasts longer & comes in more often then pure SD skills are needed. JMHO





What am I getting at?
That TKD is a good martial art for SD against an untrained person it can be fun and have alot to offer.It has not got everything and is not best suited if you want to learn to fight at all ranges.
What is wrong with saying that?
Why is it so bad?
This is my point as to one reason why it looses face.
Most other arts seem to accept it.
Yes it gets a bad rep and has more than people realize but you guys are going to far the other way basicaly saying it was MMA type stuff and as hardcore as a mountain.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377680 - 03/06/08 01:51 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Look, you really sound like you are not really well versed in the TKD textbooks & syllabus of the founder. This is & was always the way it was suppossed to be. Now your experience with TKD is apparently limited to your experiences. remember, TKD is the world's most popular MA.
However, many look at it simply as an umbrella name. Others as a sport. The smallest group is the ITF. So you seem to be critiquing an Art based on schools you have seen or trained at. You said you don't have the Encylopedia. Get it! Any edition! I have almost all of them. So when you get hold of a copy, I will give you specific pages, depending on the edition you come across. It is all over the system of sparring section & the hoosinsul one as well.

I can also tell you that he told me this in person & when he taught seminars. You won't believe this as you want it on tape. rest assurred, I have never posted anything false or misleading on purpose in this or any other forum. Never. In fact, when people question what I post, I clarify or when they are right, I corrected it. When I question some who have held oppossing points & asked for references, they usually never come. When I have had people question me, I asked for one instance where they think I was wrong or misleading. That challenge has still remained unanswered. Even here, posting without a name, integrity is of the utmost importance to me. I blast the ITF when deserved. It is important to me to remain honest, because if I don't, with ITF TKD being the minority, it will serve a crushing blow to my ability to help others learn what TK-D was meant to be, according to the founder.

So continue your assault on TKD. There are good points that can & should be made to highlight certain schools shortcomings & mutiple instances of students not following the ITF syllabus. However, this is not the fault of the 1st or original TKD system.




Are you well versed in 20 th century martial arts?
It does not fit ,thats all ,with eveidence of other things going on.Nor can you get even photos or references tolink me to

An example.
Jhoon Rhee was with Bruce Lee at times and apparently showed him some kicks.
There are pictures and accounts yes?
So he is researching all fighting and Jhoon Rhee forgetts to mention how TKD was doing all that before?
We know Bruce lee was doing grappling near he end of his life and Dan Inosanto has said and shown what it was they were doing and clealy stated it was not rolling or going all out,it was the classicway,,guy does lock and it ends no fight back or whatever.No carry on fighting like MMA.And this was from Gene Labells influence amongst others.
There is no logical or solid thing that places TKD doing what would later be MMA atthat time.It just does not fit.Sorry.
We have footage and references and accounts to how they trained,and although hard and containing locks,sweeps,throws, etc not in the that way.

Reference me a place please because I can get to look an encylopedia.

Anyway,it seems its impossible for me to get an unbiased discussion as you are very passionate about TKD.
This getting way to negative.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377681 - 03/06/08 02:27 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
There is some tosh in those posts and some points,some twisted interpretations,some hypocrisy and finaly some admittence and realism.

Well it has been and is like playground bull so im going to step back and not commemt on your negative points about me or fuel anymore.


Edited by matxtx (03/06/08 02:35 PM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377682 - 03/06/08 02:44 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Efrain


Want to thank you for starting this thread. This topic allows coverage of most all the issues and differences of old and modern TKD. I think what this thread has done is give us the ability to vent all of our frustrations under the appropriate topic and clarifies things for many of us. Not saying that people are changing their opinions but we are getting better perspective of the old vs. new and where some of the problems originate. This is why this thread has lasted so long and is still going strong.

Thanks

von1

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#377683 - 03/06/08 03:14 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
To add to a few of von1's points:

All the schools I have trained at were with KKW certified instructors, and had successful sport TKD programs with athletes medaling in major WTF-style competitions. That being said, in our regular classes we also spent a good deal of time on things like basics, forms, one-steps/self-defense/attack-defend types of drills. One club I belonged to integrated wrestling/BJJ takedown defenses around a TKD foundation. Another I belonged to incorporatd extensive Hapkido and Kung Fu trapping/grabbing/locking techniques into a TKD foundation. At another club, for one of my dan tests, I had to spar 2-3 attackers at once. At another dan test, I was attacked with random techniques and had to respond accordingly (not one-step sparring).

Additionally, it's not as though KKW TKD schools are teaching SD solely by borrowing things from other styls. The KKW website has an online version of the KKW textbook, and of the techniques shown, I'd say more than half are not even applicable Olympic-style sparring... they are either forms or SD techniques. So KKW TKD properly taught gives a SD foundation as well.

I say all this because the common criticism made against KKW style schools is that they just focus on competition and sparring. While there is truth to this, I'd say such claims are often overstated. And in the schools/clubs/teams that do focus on sport TKD, I've never seen them claim that what they teach is for SD. More often than not, I see these types of criticism made from people outside the system with limited experience in the KKW system. I have trained in KKW style TKD since I was a child, with 20 years of experience. In that time, I have trained mainly at three different KKW TKD schools, and and cross/guest trained at several other KKW TKD clubs. All the clubs had successful sport TKD programs, but all the clubs also embraced the full KKW curriculum, incl. self-defense.

I posted this elsewhere, but will make the point again. Yes, sport TKD sparring has it's appeal. But at the end of the day, few schools can survive on offering only sport TKD sparring. People want SD, to learn how to fight, to be fit, to improve themselves, etc. So if a TKD school is going to prosper it has to offer the complete package of TKD. In addition to being true to the art, it's simply better business to do so than just offer Olympic sparring.

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#377684 - 03/06/08 03:20 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


There is some tosh in those posts and some points,some twisted interpretations,some hypocrisy and finaly some admittence and realism.

Well it has been and is like playground bull so im going to step back and not commemt on your negative points about me or fuel anymore.




Matxtx, I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to criticise you, rather there is a debate about your arguments.

Quote:


Ok.So you actualy hit each other in the throat?You knee each other in the balls?You break each others arms?You actualy kick each others knees?You actually elbow each other full board in the face?You go for the eyes fully?I thow eacho ther full on onto thefloor and stamp on each others heads?
ETC ETC ETC?
That is the most hardcore place I know of.




Well, that is certainly not what non-compliance means. Rather you are talking about lack of control. Compliance is a partner allowing you to attack attack without defending themselves, or doing what they are "supposed to do." I think ITFUnity is pointing out that one-steps are not compliant because the attack is random- it can be a hand or leg technique, a grab etc. The fact that there is some compliance after the attack has been made is purely a tool for allowing people to practice techniques once in a while, instead of being forced to do it in sparring, where you may never get an opportunity to pull many techniques off against better opponents.

For what it's worth, I actually disagree that there is no compliance in one-steps. Because the counter is done against a still target, not exactly realistic, it would be difficult to call it not compliant. Afterall, a fight rarely involves one technique. However, I can recognise it as a useful tool for some people, especially for learning to block and move away from techniques.

Quote:

That TKD is a good martial art for SD against an untrained person it can be fun and have alot to offer.It has not got everything and is not best suited if you want to learn to fight at all ranges.
What is wrong with saying that?
Why is it so bad?
This is my point as to one reason why it looses face.




There's nothing bad about it, unless you disagree of course. But that doesn't make you a bad person mate haha! You know, I have always trained TKD for one range only- stand-up striking. However, I have access to judo schools, BJJ schools etc. where I can learn other ranges. Perhaps if you do not have access to such things then having one school proficient in all ranges is more important. And ofcourse, I was able to dedicate 3-4 hours 6 days a week to going to classes, and most people simply can not do this and would prefer to find a style that incorporates the lot.

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#377685 - 03/06/08 03:53 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Von1 and Badachagi, I think Unity was just saying he didn't hear alot from your side but your posts have proven otherwise. This is what we need to hear/read. We need to hear about the schools that teach the Art, not just Olympic sparring, or TKD daycares but the complete art.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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