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#377666 - 03/05/08 04:52 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:

Not sure what your getting at.
I was saying that when TKD is put into perspective, that its SD against an unskilled person, it makes sense.




Right, despite the fact that it was originally developed for use in the military?
What do you mean by putting it in perspective? Do you mean philosophy and goal?
Are you saying it took decades to establish a fighting system that only prepares it's combatants to fight against regular folks and bums?

Quote:

But do TKD people find this hard to accept or disagree with it?



Of course I acknowledge the shortcomings of my art. But if I was learning any other MA I would think the same. There are flaws in virtually EVERY art. That's why I supplement my training with all aspects of fighting. Correct me if I'm wrong but the founders of TK-D never said "don't go into the in-depth nature of groundfighting, throws and submissions or we'll cut your gum-gums off".

Quote:

Do they disagree because it was apparently influenced by fighting arts like boxing and judo.



It takes two baby.


In my view you're putting your perspective as if every street corner was filled with bloody thirsty streetfighters and MMA practitioners. MMA is NOT SD.

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#377667 - 03/05/08 08:18 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Or like one step and Hosinsul with an certain ammount of compliance?




There is no compliance in our (ITF) 1 steps. None! That is why we apparently do them different from others. Reference to my long back & forths with Dereck, concerning same.
ITF HooSinSul, when learning moves requires a certain amount of compliance, as I think it would be with what you do. However, when it is all put together in free sparring or HooSinsul, there is no compliance, as that is not training under realistic conditions. Which you must remember is the mandate of the founder. Compliance in HooSinSul is also there for demo purposes, but never should it exist during SD training.

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#377668 - 03/05/08 08:43 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

But the oppurtunity to fight freely like that was not given so it seems.Thats kind of the argument.Its not given in most places even now.
Was that permission given?Did TKD originaly allow it to go on like MMA does and as sturats clip makes out?Is there reference to the general stating this?




Look, you really sound like you are not really well versed in the TKD textbooks & syllabus of the founder. This is & was always the way it was suppossed to be. Now your experience with TKD is apparently limited to your experiences. remember, TKD is the world's most popular MA. However, many look at it simply as an umbrella name. Others as a sport. The smallest group is the ITF. So you seem to be critiquing an Art based on schools you have seen or trained at. You said you don't have the Encylopedia. Get it! Any edition! I have almost all of them. So when you get hold of a copy, I will give you specific pages, depending on the edition you come across. It is all over the system of sparring section & the hoosinsul one as well.

I can also tell you that he told me this in person & when he taught seminars. You won't believe this as you want it on tape. rest assurred, I have never posted anything false or misleading on purpose in this or any other forum. Never. In fact, when people question what I post, I clarify or when they are right, I corrected it. When I question some who have held oppossing points & asked for references, they usually never come. When I have had people question me, I asked for one instance where they think I was wrong or misleading. That challenge has still remained unanswered. Even here, posting without a name, integrity is of the utmost importance to me. I blast the ITF when deserved. It is important to me to remain honest, because if I don't, with ITF TKD being the minority, it will serve a crushing blow to my ability to help others learn what TK-D was meant to be, according to the founder.

So continue your assault on TKD. There are good points that can & should be made to highlight certain schools shortcomings & mutiple instances of students not following the ITF syllabus. However, this is not the fault of the 1st or original TKD system.


Quote:

In one step and hosinul definintly anything goes,with a certain amount of co operation finishing with a strike ,which is presumed finished the job.




Again, this shows your lack of grasp of the ITF syllabus. I can make no defense of how other schools do it, or even an ITF school that does it wrong. This is not how the founder wanted step sparring done! So I can not address your criticism, as it is unfounded in our case, according to our syllabus.

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#377669 - 03/05/08 08:52 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I was saying that when TKD is put into perspective, that its SD against an unskilled person, it makes sense.
But do TKD people find this hard to accept or disagree with it?




What are you getting at? There are of course better ways to learn SD. However, TKD is not JUST for SD. You want the best SD, find a school that will concentrate on that & use realistic conditions to insure you learn. PERIOD.

Now any MA can make someone better able to defend themselves, even a weak school or a school that emphasizes sport, as the work out will help build a person in many ways. The reason or 1 reason why MMAs have grown is because of the softness of many MAs schools, not limited to TKD.
So whats your point?

If you train in a tuff MMA or strict combat fighting school & go up against one from a weak or soft MA school, with all other things being equal, size, shape, toughness, strength etc, you win, plain & simple. I would even wager that you win when going against someone from my way of training, with all other things being equal, as your training concentrates on that aspect. However, I will pick my students for most of the other things that the ITF syllabus builds & develops.
Apples & Oranges!
I certainly am not afraid to acknowledge shortcomings my way, but I am proud of what we accomplish, as it is much more that we do then SD. What we do lasts longer & comes in more often then pure SD skills are needed. JMHO

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#377670 - 03/06/08 03:47 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

It did not come across like that to me.It looked like you just making misconceptions after seeing a bit of it and not having trained.



Actually Ive seen quite a bit of it, including how clubs and some of the top people train. Though I repeat, you brought up the TKD/MMA thing.. when "sport" was mentioned (from what it did actually develop from, no matter how it may be sued btw), you got all angsty.. I simply tried to explain why it would be seen as "sport".. but nothing is 100%.. boxing is technically a sport, but carries much merit with regards to the fighting side of SD as well.

Quote:

Similar how others see TKD in the olympics or in demo and think its just fancy kicking.



Sadly, many clubs are like that which is one reason why TKD gets its crappy, undeserved rep.

Quote:

I said post a clip how it was trained and you were rolling. You could of said this is TKD with enhancement.



I have always said that anything we do on the gound longer than a few seconds isnt really part of TKD and have always said its TKDs weak link. That said, I dont really se it as "rolling", not as "Rolling" was described to me by an MMA guy - which is manouvering about, looking for locks and positioning etc.

Quote:

Rollings rolling.



According to what you are saying, anything done in a non standing postion is called "rolling".. if thats so, then yes you are right... I beg to differ.

Quote:

Anyone in there right mind tries to finish.They do it a sports fight because it might be their best area and even then want to end it quickly.



Well yes, the difference is.. in SD you woudnt weight up the odds of finishing.. meaning you would simply go for it staright away as its imperitive to get back up, in sports or evening forms of training, you wouldnt always do this straight away in case you leave yourself vunerable.. the onus isnt the same. Not sure if Ive explained that too well!!


Quote:

It turns to tactics because the other guy is good and fightingback.



Again I agree.. and disagree. In SD fighting there is only one tactic.. to destroy your oppoenent to get back up.

Quote:

They are not purposly taking ages to stop each other.Thats just what happens when skilled people meet.



Sometimes.. othertimes they wont commit as it may leave then vunerable.

Quote:

Plus,thats still a veiw based on sports stuff.



Your saying its one and the same arnt you.. the only difference being intent (which makes a big difference btw) and may be one of the underlying things of this discussion we have not touched upon enough.

Quote:

I was making genuine points.I realy cant be arsed to go through posts nit picking qoutes and comparing so just generaly said how it looked in one sentence.



Points of not, It was not all stuff i said and if you gonna quote someone as fact.. you should get it right. If you cant be arsed.. dont do it, simply make your point without reference.

Quote:

You showed a clip.You were doing what I would call 'all' in the context of this discussion.Stand up to ground and rolling.



Yes.. we use to call it "all in" sparring, I simply differ on your definition that all ground stuff can be considered rolling.

Quote:

You said it is as good as Judo if trained properly in response to me saying if TKD has judo why does it not resemble it.



Sorry, I thought you were refering to the throws. If so, I stand by my point, if you are refering to Judo randori.. the ruleset and techniques allowed are different, so it will look different. If you are refering to Judo as a whole, TKD has other facets so would not look taht similar except when performing throws.. which takes us back to point one above. As for the Judo influence.. I think even though the throwing was taken on board, the ne-waze wasnt (not by all anyway, perhaps in some schools, I dont know).

Quote:

You never said either way about the floor or made it clear.To me anyway.Im going by the clip and what youv been saying.



Well hopefully its cleared up now.


Quote:

Well at times you sounded definite.



I definate in my opinion.. as I mention at the beginning, I have seen a fair bit... on TV Ive been watch MMA bouts since the Bushido events which actually pre-date the UFCs. I have over the years seen lots of the schools in training, along with much more up to date training methods in the clbs. I also know some MMA guys & instructors.

Quote:

I dont unsertand that fully.Oh well.Imnot a hater.Its coming across that way as I oppose some views.I would suggest.



It makes no different in your intent.. the answers remain the same.

Quote:

No.Because He would be doing it before anyone else I know of in britain.As a combined thing.Basicaly what would later be MMA.



Well, he has been training a long time, but I can only speak of when I started training with him (beginning of 1990). Whether he did similar with his instructors I dont know, what I can say is that he always encouraged the takedown and finish stuff and as we approached BB levels he encouraged fighting off the floor etc. My training partner and I often took this further as obviously, with resistence, things dont aways go to plan first time and this has been developed over the years as time went by. What I can say is that he (my instructor) is a "pure" TKD man.. having never trained in other arts (AFAIA) and a stickler to the manuals way of doing things (bit like ITFunity).

Quote:

A full contact anything goes gym in combination.



When we did the stuff I refer to above, there was contact of varying levels, but it was never full contact, though often hurt none the less.

Quote:

Good points though irrelevant.Iv not disputed any of that. I f...ing know all that.



Actually its probibly the most relevant thing her to your questions and funnily enough you dismiss it. You main point was about if TKD incorported some form of ground stuff and that you never saw it and this was a "fault" from the top down.. a true TKD pioneer has said it was done early on and you dismiss it.. ITFunity has also stated in other posts that Gen Choi enocouraged it and you dismiss it.. it seems no answer will be right for you as your mind is already made up.. making this who discussion mute!

Quote:

Iv disputed MMA type sparring,grappling with the idea of striking ,rolling,Ground work ,keeping going.



And you`ve been shown to be wrong in this contect, though I still dont feel its MMA type sparring myself, its sort of "include this if you go to the ground".. no one ever looks to go to the ground.. whereas in MMA they often do.

Quote:

Pick out my quotes and I will explain again if youv taken them as meaning the above.



If you cant be arsed, then neither can I!

Quote:

Is he still teaching like that though?Thats not clear or seems to be the case if he has to ask so its still iffy as to why not.Is it copping out?



Only Mr flynch can answer that.


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377671 - 03/06/08 03:52 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

It was a question.



Erm , okay.. looked like more of an observation to me as it didnt actually have a "question" part, just a question mark on the end!! Never mind.

Quote:

Because TKD has taken from fighting arts apparently boxing,juo etc ,do TKD people get annoyed if people say it works best on the unskilled?



LOL.. everything works best on the unskilled.. including every other martial arts. It doesnt cahneg the fact it acn work against skilled people as well!

Quote:

I disagree totaly.Sorry.A human being has a certain responsiblity to others.If they dont tell a young girl for example the context of the things she is being taught for SD it is an ABSOLUTE DISCRACE.Thats my passionate personal opinion.



You were talking about historical connections of the arts, not the context of techniques. I agree SD techniques and their context should be explained properly.. this is a given but different to what you first infered.

Quote:

How a person could have the balls to open a school and do that I dont know.



Do what? You mean not acknowledge their arts history or not explain things properly (technique wise)!!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377672 - 03/06/08 06:10 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Personally I don't see why it is so necessary to explain the history of an art unless that is part of the philosophy.

With TKD a percentage of the philosophy is absed around Korean nationalism/identity. The persons whom the tul are named after are there to act as inspiration to the student.

However, what is the necessity of teaching the Karate roots of TKD? Why stop there? Why not teach the (alleged/posible)Chinese roots of Karate and Korean arts.

Do boxers get taught about characters such as James Figgs? do MMA guys get taught the possible connection between Cornish wrestling and BJJ? How many contemporary wrestlers or MMA people could tell you about Hackenschmidt or Dinnie?

Also, the problemwith citing "karate roots" is that karate isbeing put unde one umbrella. There are many kinds of Karate, each with different influeces and techniques. How many might contain the elements which TKD might be said to be missing.

If a student does not know the history, does it actually affect their SD skills? Also, how useful is it to know too much about what a technique can do? Might it not stop a person using it at a vital moment?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377673 - 03/06/08 09:34 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

Quote:

TKD has it all,hang on whats all,oh it was basic,hang it isnt its as good as judo,we roll,they rolled,no they dont,its the military,they dont go to the floor,hang they sparred on the floor,wait, erm.?
Its all over the place.It changes in so many places to suit.

I believe what I know and think I have an honest down to earth veiw of what TKD is and is not.Ill continue to find out and make my own mind up.





Yes I see your point & agree somewhat. However, I think you judge TKD on what you see & not what it is suppossed to be. In the end, it is all about money for many. TKD has suffered as it became more commercialized, just like other MAs. Now MMAs I believe was born out a a real need to fill this SD void. As such, it is successful IMHO in that aspect. There is no question in my mind, that if one wants a more hard core, street tuff SD, they need to consider joining a MMA school & not a TKD school. However, a real TKD school following its original design, can offer a good & effective SD for many, plus a whole lot more. Just don't confuse which TKD school you should join, as when making a choice, one must find what best fits their individual needs with a school that is in the best position to meet those needs or requirements of the student.




I agree with you whole heartedly because while TKD has these techniques ( ground fighting, throws, etc. ) it is hard to concentrate on these areas for an extended period since the syllubus is so large many schools are only open for a few hours a night . As you said, if you want this training, find a MMA school that concentrates on these techniques.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#377674 - 03/06/08 09:34 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Similar how others see TKD in the olympics or in demo and think its just fancy kicking.



Sadly, many clubs are like that which is one reason why TKD gets its crappy, undeserved rep.





Funny I would say this is why TKD has its deserved poor reputation, as so many shools focus on so much more than SD.

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#377675 - 03/06/08 09:40 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Personally I don't see why it is so necessary to explain the history of an art.......If a student does not know the history, does it actually affect their SD skills?




Knowing the history of TKD has virtually nothing to do with the ability to defend oneself. It may offer a clue to what it was developed for, so one can guage whether present methods are approriate for the needs of the student of today.

History is important to other areas of what one can obtain from an Art of SD, just as you mentioned.

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