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#377646 - 03/04/08 06:22 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

However, I think you judge TKD on what you see & not what it is suppossed to be.



I just want to address this.I judge it on taking it very seriously in the past,hard training,research,what iv seen, what iv trained,questioning everything and trying them.
I would like to think im making properly thought out points that are unbiased to anything.

I just wonder when a line will be drawn on what TKD is and was.Did it have everything originaly any other style has and was hardcore?




I question neither your experience or sincerity. I only say that TKD is so broad. I am only offerring counterpoints from the Chang Hon or ITF standpoint, which is the smallest of the groups.

What is TKD? Who knows. It seems like it is more of an umbrella name than anything. Next comes the martial or olympic sport. The narrowest definition that I used to use, but no longer do, as it makes little sense, is that TKD was an Art founded by Ambassador Choi & his military followers.
Now I was not there in the Korean Army, but do know that is what a combination of other fighting arts of the day, including but not limited to Judo, wrestling & boxing, with the biggest influence being Japanese Karate.

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#377647 - 03/04/08 06:25 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

On that point, I once asked Mr Cho how far you can adapt and change before it isn't TKD. His reply was that, in his opinion, if you remembered where you came from you would always be TKD. I think this is where the art and philosophy comes into play over the mere physical technique.





Of course it would still be TKD, as it was an early cobination of different styles & techniques. So anything added, would just supplement its main mission, SD. Note GM Cho Hee Il, was an early military student of TKD, who later worked for the ITF to spread it worldwide. he has been on his own for decades doing same.

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#377648 - 03/04/08 06:41 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I once heard that GM Cho actually asked to grade before the General for his 7th and 8th Dan. Any ida if this is true?
_________________________
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#377649 - 03/04/08 07:32 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Video's do/did exist. For example for year GM CK Choi has been in search of a full TKD trainning video he was paid to create in the seventies for the president (could be some other term for leader) of Paraguay

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#377650 - 03/04/08 07:42 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Motobu Choki ,Okinawan Karate pioneer apparently said this.

“The techniques of kata have its limits and one must come to understand this. The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in the arena or on the battlefield. They were however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior."

Tkd roots back to Karate.So it makes sense it applies to TKD patterns and so the SD.
Tkd people,in my experience, find this hard to accept andget annoyed and try to give TKD more jazz........Man.
Maybe TKD because took from boxing, judo, etc apparently, and so feel it has more?
But put into that perspective things make sense.
Are students clearly told this?
I dont know.Not to me it seems.
If people just want that and know it.Great.


Edited by matxtx (03/04/08 07:45 PM)
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#377651 - 03/04/08 08:32 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I think it is acceptable to see it for what it is now as that is what is avalibale for many students. I can see how it may seem like we are talking about something very different. GM CK Choi knows what it has become in some circles and he would like to see what it was and should be come back (as he believes) comeback.


Edited by flynch (03/04/08 08:33 PM)

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#377652 - 03/04/08 09:38 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I agree people do that.Never said anything to do with it.I said you incorpoated and its good to progress.So was not sure why is was directed at me.If it was.



It was a general observation of how it differs if TKd does it, as opposed to other arts doing similar. it wasnt directed at you per se, just it formed part of the post which was responding to you (if that makes sense). To clarify.. general observation, not directed at you personally.. sorry for the confusion.

Quote:

Your joking right?
You write a chapter and go on about how TKD is misenterpreted then do it your self?



Not at all.. I havnt slagged off MMA, I simply stated that most of what people see of it is the sport on the TV! I've made no comment on the way clubs train.. as obviously different clubs will focus on what they feel are the important aspect, just what "others/most" will have seen and tried to clear up why many will see it as a "sport".. to clarify.. I havnt said "I" see it that way.. again, its a general view with regards to the subject matter you presented.

Quote:

Its ok for TKD to 'roll' and its not sport,but if MMA guys do it its sport?



I dont "roll" as they do in MMA.. again it was a general point about a weak link in TKD (IMO). When we go to ground, we go to finish - quickly.. its not a tactical thing (as in MMA is more tactical in their manouvers IMO).. its simply survival training.. first to finish.. wins.

Quote:

TKD has it all,hang on whats all,oh it was basic,hang it isnt its as good as judo,we roll,they rolled,no they dont,its the military,they dont go to the floor,hang they sparred on the floor,wait, erm.?



Wait indeed. In you attempts to make me look bad or something you are mixing up post to try and make a point. Lets break it down again:
1. "TKD has it all" - I didnt say that.. I said it has more than is recognised in most schools today.. I also acknowledge weak areas. the only person using the "All" description is you!
2. "Isnt as good as judo" - was in reference to the throwing section of TKD. Obviously it stands to reason that an art the practices many facets as opposed to mainly one (like throwing in judo)isnt going to be as good at it. Again, my opinion.
3. With regards to rolling - ain't got a clue what your on about TBH. I refer to "rollin" as it was relayed to me by a MMA instructor I know - as in when going to the ground, moving for position whilst looking for a submission or strike. I use the term to diffientiate from what TKD saw as ground work.
4. I never said they sparred on the floor.. I said they did take downs and followed up/finished

-- again.. dont f##king misquote me cos your points aint being made!



Quote:

Its all over the place.It changes in so many places to suit.



Actually, I think yours are, as when you hear something that doesnt fit your now "formed" opinion you get all angsty and make poss like this. You asked.. I answered, and also did more to clarify things for you.. see end of this post for some final clarification. This post (the one Im replying to) simply sounds like a kid chucking his toys out the pram cos he aint getting his own way!

Quote:

And you dont seem to know much about MMA or whatever you want to call it beyond sport or clique crap.



See above with regards to MMA/sport.. and I agree, Im no expert on MMA.. I have trained with some MMA instructors and talked to a fair few.. but only speak of what Ive seen//experienced.. I make no comments as an authority on the subject.

Quote:

Im not repectfull of that kind of behavour so dont realy care anymore or about your views.



Perhaps you should check yourself then. If you dont value my opinion.. dont ask me questions.. simple really!

Quote:

I believe what I know



As most do!!!!

Quote:

and think I have an honest down to earth veiw of what TKD is and is not.



Of what your TKd experience is it seems!

Quote:

Ill continue to find out and make my own mind up.



that you should.. as I do.

Quote:

Plus im not a TKD hater yet I cant make points without seeming to be so.



Perhaps you should reread your posts. even so.. it makes no difference as the answers are the same either way, hater or not!

Quote:

Your instructor is important in British martial arts then.



Why? He does his own thing and simply stays true to the TKD as he was taught.

Quote:

What is his name so I can pass that on and ask others who know alot if they came across him.



Whose your instructor? Mine is very very easy to find out, but I dont wish to post his name on a public forum as hes a quiet guy who just does his thing.

Quote:

And find that footage that demonstates ALL you have been saying.



This has already been reponded to.. but see following post as well.

With regards to "Traditional Sparring" and sparring related to more than competition type.. in a previous post (in a response to you) I asked Flynch to ask GM Choi (a genuine living pioneer of TKD if his parring was similar and involved more). Mr flynch kindly did do and here is his response.. (I have highlighted those points that are in direct reference to your questions/observations in this thread)
Quote:

Quote:

"I asked and here it is. " If people think TKD just uses hands and feet then it is not properly taught " GM CK Choi
Preparation for tournament sparring was completely different and usually seperate from normal sparring.
Actually in class they were allowed to spar with holding, grabbing, knees, elbows, judo throws and even foot stomp opponents on the ground
If you are in a small close quarters fight you have to fight with these things and the following."



-- many many thanks to Flynch for asking GM Choi for clarification and I believe this answers your (matxtx) points about "from the top down etc."!!

Follow on with a post by ITFunity (replied to my post, but obviously concerning this part of the discussion and TD going to the ground):
Quote:

This is what I mean by realism. If you are fighting freely (free sparring) with almost everything goes for SD, how can you not at times end up on the floor?
If this is the case, how can you not continue to fight?
So when schools do not do this, they simply are not following the founder's directions & are mistakenly, inadvertingly or otherwise, mixing SD with tournament sparring. Not a no-no for the Art, but for the teacher.




ITFunity has further responded to your post, but Ill leave you to respond to that on a seperate post. However, this quote is quote by ITFunity inline with you main points:
Quote:

Sounds like GM Choi Chang Keun has been training ay my or Mr. Anslow's school!


.. IMO this should read the other way round.. which funnily enough (though I would love to) I havent trained with GM Choi.. though it goes a long way to show my training isnt far fetched as you (matxtx) are trying to make out!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377653 - 03/04/08 09:42 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I just want to address this.I judge it on taking it very seriously in the past,hard training,research,what iv seen, what iv trained,questioning everything and trying them.



According to you... we dont know how much of that you've actually done or in what areas or what directions. I dont mean this as disrespectful.. but its simply your word, so carries as much weight as any others word on a public forum.

Quote:

I would like to think im making properly thought out points that are unbiased to anything.



Based on your experiences.

Quote:

Does it have things not in there and could be better and modernised with up to date training drills,methods and ideas borrowed from other sources ?



Any art over 50 years old can benefit with up to date training methods.. thats a given. But its not a reason to discreit an art.. just common sense IMO.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377654 - 03/04/08 09:50 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Motobu Choki ,Okinawan Karate pioneer apparently said this.

“The techniques of kata have its limits and one must come to understand this. The techniques of kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter, in the arena or on the battlefield. They were however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behavior."

Tkd roots back to Karate.So it makes sense it applies to TKD patterns and so the SD.
Tkd people,in my experience, find this hard to accept andget annoyed and try to give TKD more jazz........Man.



points:
1. I have made the same point on many thread reagrding patterns/SD.
2. Not withstanding the fact that Motobu Choki hated Funakoshi, so did what he could to discredit him and his sytem.
3. Is one of the reasons I say pattern applications are not "in fight" techniques.. and that, that is learnt in sparring (Traditional or Mixed/MMA type).


Quote:

Maybe TKD because took from boxing, judo, etc apparently, and so feel it has more?
But put into that perspective things make sense.



How so?

Quote:

Are students clearly told this?



Why should they be? allmost all arts developed as a mix of "own thoughts" based on other arts.. very few expend the efforts to explain this. Karate for example doesnt go to ends to explain its kung fu roots or even its okinawan roots.. why should TKd be any different or held more accountable!!

Personally I think if asked, yes explain.. if not, then its part of every students reasearch into their art... and if they dont research.... I doubt they are interested or care anyway.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377655 - 03/04/08 09:53 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: MattJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

LOL Stuart and matxtx =






LOL..
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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