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#377586 - 02/29/08 01:33 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Sir, please understand that TKD was originally developed as a modern MMA. It did in fact takes aspects of various MAs & fighting systems of the time & combine them into a system of SD that was to be for military SD.
Now of course, that is not to be confused with what many today conceive MMA as being. Now the term modern is used to then describe a period being the 50s & 6os, ending for the most part by the early 70s.




ITFUnity, I have seen you make this point a number of times, but I'd like to suggest that your insistence on calling TKD a "mixed martial art" is misleading. Not deliberately or maliciously misleading, but misleading nonetheless.




It is only misleading if one does not understand what I wrote. I don't call TKD a MMA. I simply say that it was "originally developed as a modern MMA".

This again needs the following emphasis. It was the TKD of the Oh Do kwan that did this first for the military, 10 years before virtually anyone else was even using the name TKD. Of course we know that some were just doing Karate & calling it TKD & others, primarily led by the JiDo kwan that developed their version of TKD around new tournament rules that eventually became the Olympic TKD sport.

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#377587 - 02/29/08 01:35 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EvenRats]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

You do realize MMA is more of a sport right? As in with a set of rules and high level of competition. The purpose of training Taekwon-Do is to learn how to defend yourself against aggression. If you really want to bring your Tk-D to "MMA/NHB level" then I suggest you find a school that specializes in that. As in, less historical cirriculum, more fighting.
Nobody who trains "Martial art X" crossed over with "Martial Y" magically wakes up and fights MMA. You have to train in that specific environment.




Im talking about the training.MMA/NHB,waheterver you want to call it can be applied where you like.So yes,it can be applied for sport.I get that.

Any good martial art is learning against aggression.Someone trying to knock you out is agression.It does not matter where it is.
I found a place.Like I said,its my thing to put TKD in that enviroment and see how it goes.

Your right about the rest exaclty what iv been saying.

I think my posts and my part in this discussion is becoming too negative or like I am tearing TKD apart(I suppose I am but just to get where I want).I dont mean to do that just provide honesty and perspective so if I have to be too negative to respond or make a point I dont think I will.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377588 - 02/29/08 01:52 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

The thing that does not make sense is that if the word MMA comes up,like IT haS,that method of training is degraded as sport,like it has.Agreed yes.
So it does not make sense.




First & this may sound like nit picking, but MMA is not a word. It is I think described as the abbreviation of 3 words strung together. The 3 words being:
mixed martial art

Now it doesn't mean a full or compete mix or even a balanced mix, with a specific recipe or formula.

The term modern as I use it is to denote a period of primarily the 50s & 60s. We all can agree that MAs goes back to the early days of when man started to fight. Somewhere along the way, people decided to think it through & came up with a way to systemize fighting in order to gain some advantage over opponents. Now I am not an expert on other MAs, but I would render a guess there may be some things in common today with those of the early days. It also makes sense that things have changed & evolved from those early days.

In SK in the 1950s, the Oh Do Kwan was responsible for mixing things up in those modern times, as compared to yesteryear & the early days. They did. It was respected & even feared by some. TKD in general has evolved into more of a business, sport & child rearing service. That in & of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. But it is apparent that it has changed. The same can be said for other MAs. I think this is a reason why today's MODERN MMA has evolved. Now todays MMA has taken a different shape than earlier mixes.

I make no claim that TKD is like today's MMA. I think from my limited knowledge of today's MMAs, it can be an effective method of SD. Much more so then TKD. However, if TKD went back to it's roots & was practiced with realism, the result will be a better system of SD. NOT better than MMA, but better than much of what many TKD schools presently offer.

But remember, there is nothing wrong with TKD schools offering child rearing services, if they can be effective & that is what the parent is paying for. JMHO

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#377589 - 02/29/08 01:57 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I think my posts and my part in this discussion is becoming too negative or like I am tearing TKD apart(I suppose I am but just to get where I want).I dont mean to do that just provide honesty and perspective so if I have to be too negative to respond or make a point I dont think I will.




No I apprecaite your thought out responses & input. They are valid criticisms. Negative information is good for people to be exposed too. It may help their thought process & concepts.
I just don't think you give much credit or highlight that there is more things that TKD can offer, besides an often weak SD.

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#377590 - 02/29/08 03:12 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
In this thread, I've noticed there seems to be a recurring theme that basically seems to state that TKD was a better system for fighting/SD in the "old days", before it became a sport (insert criticism of WTF here) or children's activity (insert criticism of suburban McDojang's here). I will agree that there is truth to this, but I am forced to wonder if all the so-called "watering down" of the brutal, hardcore ancestor to modern TKD is necessarily a bad thing.

The reality is that almost all of the traditional martial arts were designed to be brutal fighting systems. Traditional training was tough, painful, and required the highest dedication. Thus by design, martial arts training precluded the majority of people from participating.

I think the real question that needs to be asked is whether MA has something to offer for everyone -- man, woman, child, adult, senior citizen, etc. If the desire is to make MA an activity that everyone can enjoy and benefit from, then the traditional hardcore training is really an outdated concept that probably only applies to soldiers and law enforcement. On the other hand, if MA should remain a fighting system that only those physically capable of enduring such training can participate in, then criticisms regarding "watering down" are indeed valid.

For my part, I don't necessarily think it's so bad that TKD, or any MA, has been "watered down" to a certain degree. I don't even think calling it a sport is bad per se. "Martial art" to many people implies that what is offered is merely for the purposes of fighting or defending yourself, whereas as "sport" connotes that the activity that is recreational and can be enjoyed by those who don't particularly want to fight.

If TKD was taught as it had been in the old days, I doubt most of us reading this board would be training in it.

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#377591 - 02/29/08 03:34 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Outstanding Post!
Agreed
I would also add in that the ITF schools are just as guilty with watering down.

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#377592 - 02/29/08 07:40 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

ITFUnity, I have seen you make this point a number of times, but I'd like to suggest that your insistence on calling TKD a "mixed martial art" is misleading. Not deliberately or maliciously misleading, but misleading nonetheless.



I dont think its misleading, simple that those that are perhaps of a more modern error can only equate it with UFC type stuff, but it is still a valid expression of what TKd did and of course, what Bruce Lee did alos.. MMA doesnt only have to include boxing, BJJ and Thai!

anyway...

Quote:

More aggression.



It varies between light to heavy contact sessions. that stuff was simply filmed in class, not as a "show" or anything and I believe that night we had all the grades up doing it.. hence control was kept reasonable & safe.

Quote:

Going on for longer.I noticed a five second ground rule They look too compliant.



Again, its simply what happened that night, we use 5 second (to allow take downs and quick follow ups), 30 seconds, 2 minutes + depending on what we are doing that night.

Quote:

Well, I cant answer without sounding critical of that training or those students and I dont want it to go like that so I dont know how to say what I mean if im honest.It did not look hardcore enough for me to go with the claims of how TKD was trained in the military.



Its the mindset & discipline thats of military value.. all my students have to work the next day after all.

Quote:

Iv heard lots claim the military style was this or that.By ''they'' I mean people who realy stick up for TKD and wont have a bad word against it.



Ok.. Ive always seen it in the vein I mention above, no martial art destroys its students every training session, otherwise there would be no students left to train.. that said, those (like Kong Young Il) Ive spoke to always mentioned how arduous it was, how strict it was and how the sparring hurt!

Quote:

Do you mean your group or TKD in general have always trained like that?
Im sceptical TKD was originaly trained like that.
If your group,Fair enough.



Not my group.. me & the people I trained with and thats how my school developed into it. It was however based on what we learnt about TKD and its formulation.. hence why we did it.

Quote:

The thing that does not make sense is that if the word MMA comes up,like IT haS,that method of training is degraded as sport,like it has.Agreed yes.



No.. but it is equated with things like UFC etc., but when people like ITFunity equate it with mixing of other arts.. you say he is wrong!!

Quote:

Yet that footage is MMA type training yet its said thats good and its how its supposed to be trained or how it was trained.



No its not.. its of TKD training, which obviously you equate to MMA.. which maybe goes to prove ITFunitys point after all!!!

Quote:

So it does not make sense.



Does to me , Derick & ITFunity.. as we try to train TKD how it was meant to be!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377593 - 02/29/08 07:44 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

First & this may sound like nit picking, but MMA is not a word. It is I think described as the abbreviation of 3 words strung together. The 3 words being:
mixed martial art



Not only that, but its also not a system, as many like to relay it as such or see it as such.

Quote:

But remember, there is nothing wrong with TKD schools offering child rearing services, if they can be effective & that is what the parent is paying for. JMHO



Sorry, dissagree.. Child Rearing & Martial Arts do not equate.. one means "War Arts"..

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377594 - 02/29/08 08:50 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

But remember, there is nothing wrong with TKD schools offering child rearing services, if they can be effective & that is what the parent is paying for. JMHO



Sorry, dissagree.. Child Rearing & Martial Arts do not equate.. one means "War Arts".. Stuart




Come on & we were in sinc up to this!
Well it could just be semantics. But schools that call themselves MAs, are concentrating more on child rearing, especially in areas of discipline, self control, respect & weight control. Now that is not MAs, but a component, but that is what many parents want their children signed up for. If that what parents are paying for, so be it. However it does do harm to the reputation as a MA training center.

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#377595 - 03/01/08 10:48 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

But schools that call themselves MAs, are concentrating more on child rearing, especially in areas of discipline, self control, respect & weight control. Now that is not MAs, but a component,



Except the child rearing bit! Thats a parents job!

Quote:

However it does do harm to the reputation as a MA training center.



Perhaps they should call it MARA.. Martial Arts Related Activity

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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