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#377416 - 02/13/08 01:43 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Quote:

1- I dont think WTF sparring is a good training for learning to kick .Its a sport.It trains you to kick when the other person can not punch you in the face,try to take you down,try to tie you up or try to low kick you.

2 - When a person can do all these things ,and more, kicking dynamics and tactics change especialy if the other person is good at being multi-dimensional and a violent loon.




When it comes to # 1 above, I think it is a great way to develop certain aspects of kicking. How the students progress & ability to utilize these in SD I would also think depends on the rest of their training.

Point #2 above is right. But it works both ways. Since they can't punch to the head or use any other hand attacks but a punch to the chest, they develop very nicely certain aspects of kicking. Of course it can lead to weak areas with regard to the use of the hands. But one must be fair, it works both ways. It may be a negative with the no use of hands, but that can also be a positive, as it helps develop the speed, footwork & power, as that is their primary method of scoring.

With the right guidance, anyone's strong areas can be beneficial in assisting with SD. JMHO




But it develops aspects that then have to be changed to fit into SD or and NHB situation.So why not just train for SD in the first place?
If The olympic sparrer knows its sport and fun.Great.
If he then is led to believe what he is doing can work outside of that its not great.

It helps develop speed,footwork and power in those rules and that enviroment.Take it outside of that and things change.
I know.I take my TKD in to NHB areas and you cant be expected to shoot,sprawl, low kick,tie up,clinch,punch and move AND defend all that and still do WTF sparring kicks in the same way and move the same and have the same stance and tactics.
Its just not going to work.It doesnt.Especialy when the other person is good.
_________________________
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#377417 - 02/13/08 08:08 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

But it develops aspects that then have to be changed to fit into SD or and NHB situation.So why not just train for SD in the first place?


It helps develop speed,footwork and power in those rules and that enviroment.Take it outside of that and things change.




These points stand on their own merit. I only think that it is common sense to see that if a someone trained in this fashion, they will be in a position to better defend themselves than if they did nothing, as this training certainly develops certain skills & abilities.

Is it the best way to train for SD? No! But neither is ITF TKD either! But our style is an Art of SD. In other words, we train & learn areas outside of & in addition to down & dirty SD.

If someone wants just SD, they should train in a way that most effectively accomplishes the best SD for that individual. JMHO

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#377418 - 02/13/08 10:08 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
It is also important to remember that although there are other aspect to Tae Kwon Do trainning such as physical fitness and mental discipline. Trainning should never lose sight of the fact that self defense is the first objective. It may not be the ultimate objective for some but for everyone improvement in ones ablilty to defend oneself is first.

When schools and instrcutors lose sight of this first goal it all breaks down as you can't reach the higher goals.

That is why Tae Kwon Do has problems many schools have forgotten this intial step in training. The instructor has duty to train his/her student to defend themselves.

If we are trainning students to just do patterns, or just point spar or just do olymipic sparring then we are doing a diservice to them and to Tae Kwon Do. Competition was never the primary goal of Tae Kwon Do trainning.

You have to have standards and those standards have to include many things sometimes differing from school to school but they can never exclude increasing a students ability to defend themselves.

Unless you want to stop calling what you do Tae Kwon Do Call it kick boxercise, call it korea aerobics, call it martial fitness call it what ever you want.

Now I don't know any of you so I am not picking on anyone. If you dont agree fine say so but don't take it personnally because I am not talking about your school or your style of Tae Kwon Do.

My point is that Tae Kwon Do to me is the Korean Art of Self Defence. Although I think there are many other benefit to Tae Kwon Do they are ancilliary to this. If you are better able to defend yourself than you have accomplished this first goal. But if you can't because you have not been trained then you have your answer

I expect that I am better able to defend myself as a black belt than as a white belt.

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#377419 - 02/14/08 12:13 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

It is also important to remember that although there are other aspect to Tae Kwon Do trainning such as physical fitness and mental discipline. Trainning should never lose sight of the fact that self defense is the first objective. It may not be the ultimate objective for some but for everyone improvement in ones ablilty to defend oneself is first.





I agree that everyone does need to increase the ability to defend themselves. I think initially SD was the primary objective of original TKD. However, the founder moved that to be the primary physical goal, with the main objective to be the overall development of the person through the DO. Thus TKD written as Taekwon-Do to highlight that emphasis.


Quote:

The instructor has duty to train his/her student to defend themselves.




This goes without saying & it is a shame that many put money above this.

Quote:

Competition was never the primary goal of Tae Kwon Do trainning.





But it has become that for many & therefore it is hard to contract & compare, In SK today, TKD is looked at as a sport by many, including the general public. That in & of itself is not a bad thing, but it does change things.

Quote:

Unless you want to stop calling what you do Tae Kwon Do Call it kick boxercise, call it korea aerobics, call it martial fitness call it what ever you want.




Good point, but that will never happen.


Quote:

I expect that I am better able to defend myself as a black belt than as a white belt.




I think in most cases that will be the reality. However, the simple being better may not be enough, especially compared to other schools or other Arts, where down & dirty SD is the ONLY focus. JMHO

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#377420 - 02/14/08 12:57 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
MATXTX

I can see you disagree but I don"t think you fully understand what I was saying regarding WTF sparing and using it as a training tool for SD, You put it all together using hand techniques, hapkido, judo, or whatever other skill sets your school provides.

You also incorporate the kicking which should be greatly improved from all the sport fighting. Most of the arguments against wtf type sparing is centered around the fact that too many people wrongly assume that participants do not incorporate other skills into training for SD. This is no different than any other multidimensional training.

Example, one learns and works on take down, grappling, boxing/hand techniques, kicking, etc. At some point it all needs to come together and walla, you have a competitor that is more than capable of effective SD.

WTF participants are very good kickers in many situations but are also very good at other things too, however, there are many people who do not understand this. I feel by your comments that you are also not fully aware that most wtf participants are multidimensional fighters.

When I work on kicking it is no different than when I work on my ground game the goal is to improve both skills. The problem is that WTF only show cases the kicking so many people believe that is all we do. Now could I walk into an MMA competition and expect to dominate, probably not because I do not train to put certain aspects together as much as the average MMA fighter does for this type of competition. Nor does any other traditional striking art.

Let no one kid them selves, MMA is a competition sport, not the real thing as many believe. Do you know why I am not as concerned with some of the skills necessary to be a good MMA competitor? It is because there are many SD techniques that can be utilized to neutralize much of what MMA rules will or should allow during fights. Some average Joe shooting in for a take down would be in serious trouble but these techniques can and should only be used if your life is in danger.

Now lets say things went bad and one does go to ground, again many more options that are easier and quicker to apply than say attempting to secure an arm bar, however these other options can be deadly but remember this is the real deal not some competition and I have no desire to fight some stranger.

This is why I do not need to focus so hard on some of the skills that would help me be a better MMA fighter. This is true of many practicing martial artist and participants of the striking arts. Not every one has been duped into thinking this is the real deal. I am amazed at the amount of instructors that mistake fighting for SD. Not a knock on MMA I enjoy the fights but to me SD is not about fighting, The last thing I want to do is fight! If you want to fight be a well rounded fighter. I wish more people remembered that SD is not about fighting! the opposite is true.

One does not need to be an MMA champ to know if they are on track for defending themselves, you find your self in a fight on the street you are not applying SD you are fighting and the first one to tire will probably go to the hosp. or the morgue, there is no next round to redeem your self. Real SD avoids much trouble and if it does turn physical you do not screw around looking to ground and pound that would be fighting and not very safe. You end it quick and get the heck out of Dodge! I say again MMA is fighting not SD nor is it close to real SD. It is realistic fighting and/or sport.

(edited to add paragraph breaks - Scottie)


Edited by RazorFoot (02/14/08 02:18 PM)

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#377421 - 02/14/08 02:23 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:



These points stand on their own merit. I only think that it is common sense to see that if a someone trained in this fashion, they will be in a position to better defend themselves than if they did nothing, as this training certainly develops certain skills & abilities.






My point was about the kicking.Its a good tool to learn kicking for olympic type sparring.Not for SD or NHB fighting.
I agree there are other benefits like fitness and evasion skills but im not talking about those.
Its a sport.If WTF olympic people go on to say/teach SD kicking is similar then the they deserve the aggrivation and to be argued with.
If a student never wants to compete its not a good kicking tool for them.Unless they find itfun and enjoyable of course.Just as long as they know.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377422 - 02/14/08 02:46 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Ok, I need to jump in here. How is kicking not a good SD tool to learn? Cut kicks, leg kicks (knees, thighs, shins), and when timed properly, even kicking to higher targets can be effective. Talking MMA as we just were, how many knockouts have been recorded by a knee or kick to the head or face? I can recall several.

Matxtx, do not generalize, especially regarding something that almost every SD art has as part of its curriculum (sp).
_________________________
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#377423 - 02/14/08 03:28 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
MATXTX

Quote:

I can see you disagree but I don"t think you fully understand what I was saying regarding WTF sparing and using it as a training tool for SD, You put it all together using hand techniques, hapkido, judo, or whatever other skill sets your school provides


.

Ok.I still disagree thats a good way to go about it.Its a way sure.But its a bit stick on and glue,a bit here and a bit there then hope it comes together.You will not be standing,moving or positioned for A WTF olympic spar the same as for a judo fight,for example.So the way you have learnt to apply power speed, footwork, tactics ,etc for the olympic spar means your totaly vunerable for a judo guy coming at you.
Now think if you dont even know what the guy will come at you like so you dont even know if your out of position untill its too late.So now you cant kick as well whilst ready for the judo guy.So that olympic kicking becomes less usefull.
So a better tool would be to kick in an NHB situation not WTF situation.
If you are talking about adapting the WTF olympic kicking for NHB then you got to do that type of sparring too.Though it doesnt make sense to spar olympic style if your training for NHB/SD.So I think its not a good kicking tool.

Quote:

You also incorporate the kicking which should be greatly improved from all the sport fighting. Most of the arguments against wtf type sparing is centered around the fact that too many people wrongly assume that participants do not incorporate other skills into training for SD. This is no different than any other multidimensional training




It will be impoved for the sports fighting.Now you have to go and adapt it.So why not adapt it in the first place if your training for SD/NHB? So I dissagree its a good tool.

Quote:

Example, one learns and works on take down, grappling, boxing/hand techniques, kicking, etc. At some point it all needs to come together and walla, you have a competitor that is more than capable of effective SD.




It doesnt happen magicaly though.A person cant be expected to kick in an olympic style then just slip it into the rest without sparring and drilling in that way.
So the guy who wants SD/NHB should be kicking for SD/NHB straight off the bat.

Quote:

WTF participants are very good kickers in many situations but are also very good at other things too, however, there are many people who do not understand this. I feel by your comments that you are also not fully aware that most wtf participants are multidimensional fighters


.

Im talking about kicking in olympic type sparring so I dont know how I give you this veiw.Im not talking about WTF as a whole.

Quote:

When I work on kicking it is no different than when I work on my ground game the goal is to improve both skills. The problem is that WTF only show cases the kicking so many people believe that is all we do. Now could I walk into an MMA competition and expect to dominate, probably not because I do not train to put certain aspects together as much as the average MMA fighter does for this type of competition. Nor does any other traditional striking art.




I think its better and it makes sense to train to be able to kick whilst you can still grapple and grapple while you can still kick.If you want to kick at all.

Quote:

Let no one kid them selves, MMA is a competition sport, not the real thing as many believe. Do you know why I am not as concerned with some of the skills necessary to be a good MMA competitor? It is because there are many SD techniques that can be utilized to neutralize much of what MMA rules will or should allow during fights. Some average Joe shooting in for a take down would be in serious trouble but these techniques can and should only be used if your life is in danger.




Im talking about NHB.Not MMA in a sport context.The drills and sparring and training for NHB/MMA do not limit themselves to sport training for a fight.Your making points about people not understanind WTF though your not understanding how you can train with NHB drills,sparring etc for SD or an NHB fight.And what is SD if its not an NHB fight for your life? Your not understanding how close to the line you can get with rules and how its easy it is to inch beyond the rules if needs be.
If I can beat you within rules just think what I will do to you without any.

Quote:

Now lets say things went bad and one does go to ground, again many more options that are easier and quicker to apply than say attempting to secure an arm bar, however these other options can be deadly but remember this is the real deal not some competition and I have no desire to fight some stranger.




Easy and quicker when you have not been able to train them at full speed,full intensity with the full feeling and stress and panic because they are 'too deadly'?
Dont agree at all.

Quote:

This is why I do not need to focus so hard on some of the skills that would help me be a better MMA fighter. This is true of many practicing martial artist and participants of the striking arts. Not every one has been duped into thinking this is the real deal. I am amazed at the amount of instructors that mistake fighting for SD. Not a knock on MMA I enjoy the fights but to me SD is not about fighting, The last thing I want to do is fight! If you want to fight be a well rounded fighter. I wish more people remembered that SD is not about fighting! the opposite is true.





SD IS fighting back.The pyhsical aspects are the same.It only differs mentaly as your intent is different and you didnt want it to happen.But three seconds into an assault and 3 seconds into a fight if the same sitution is happening its the same.Mentaly its different yea,how you behave is different yea.Those differences should be noted and taken into account in training somehow.

Quote:

One does not need to be an MMA champ to know if they are on track for defending themselves, you find your self in a fight on the street you are not applying SD you are fighting and the first one to tire will probably go to the hosp. or the morgue, there is no next round to redeem your self. Real SD avoids much trouble and if it does turn physical you do not screw around looking to ground and pound that would be fighting and not very safe. You end it quick and get the heck out of Dodge! I say again MMA is fighting not SD nor is it close to real SD. It is realistic fighting and/or sport.




Thats just a big clique again that all people doing NHB/MMA type drills and sparring are training for sport.
Personaly I try to end anything as a fast and as intensly as possible be it a fight or assualT.I think you will find that so do top MMA sports fighters,boxers,etc etc.It just happens that the other guy is trained also so its not easy.They are not deliberatly fanying about.
For example Ricky Hatton was trying to take Mayweathers head off and would of loved to have done it in ten seconds, its just that Mayweather is good.



Edited by matxtx (02/14/08 03:37 PM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377424 - 02/14/08 03:36 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: RazorFoot]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Your misinterpreting me or im not coming across right.
Im disagreeing that WTF olympic sparring is a good kicking tool.
Not that kicks are not usefull in SD/NHB.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377425 - 02/14/08 03:58 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
MATXTX


No I say again if you are learning to fight you are correct sir. But self defence in it"s purest physical, and most desperate form is much more to the point and that point has a deliberate and quick ending some times even fatal.

People are caught up in all the mixed martial arts hype that many now days consider fighting and SD to be the same and they are not. This is why the striking arts have been taking such a beating regarding SD and personally I feel it is undeserved as long as one remembers that it is not about fighting. Your comments about the physical aspects of fighting and SD being the same are only some what correct because the techniques for ending the confrontation will be different if one is serious and not willing to let things turn into a fight. I will not go into detail and describe some that are easy, effective, and probably deadly because not all who visit this forum are responsible and posting this info would be irresponsible.


Edited by von1 (02/14/08 04:20 PM)

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