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#377566 - 02/27/08 08:48 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
Where I come from GTF TKD, Master Manuel Quiles 7th DAN... He has develop great TKD practitioners in the last 10 -15 years. The training is nothing like any school i've seen or been to. Everything he does and the way he teaches it is effective scientifically speaking and it's very obvious when we attend other tournaments...Yes there are other schools out there that also teach legit and are hardcore but so far from what i've seen around everything is watered down. The hardcore training I get is really something...So yea there are few good TKD schools out there where the instructor/Master teach properly for tournaments and real life self defense.

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST

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#377567 - 02/27/08 11:40 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
There are a lot of things that people are asking me to respond to & I will. First, I looked over the 10 pages of threads. There appears to be 25 topics per page, so thats 250 topics. None come close to the amount of pages this one has so far, 31 pages. Only 2 have double digits above 10, 14 & 12, but they appear dead now. So this topic has generated more than 3x the amount of pages of replies & is still going strong.
Why?
It is a topic that is talking about the negative aspects of the world's most popular MA, while asking is that MA, TKD, "loosing it's face/popularity".

I think it is & offer concrete reasons why. Basically, it was a major export of SK, became a money maker, academic college degrees in SK, insurance, sport & child rearing/babysitting emphasis have all contributed. The softening of MAs in general has I think led to an uptick, surge & development of MMAs.

I think TKD is tough to examine, as it is not really all together. Many look at it as an umbrella name, a martial sport or a specific Art devised by Gen Choi.

I make no claim that any way to look at it is more correct than another, or that any style school, system is better than the next. I find weaknesses everywhere. I look even more closely & critically at the ITF, as that is what my bread & butter is & have been very disappointed by many there, hanging my ITF flag on a wall. So there is enuf critisism to go around.

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#377568 - 02/27/08 11:50 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

In addition, even though the ITF is the smallest group, they are the ones that not only 1st used the name, but it was their system that was devised as a modern MMA, whose results were not only praised & sought after, but feared by the enemy. JMNSHO shaped by mountains of research.




Quote:

Do you personally think that the ITF "now" follows this hard core system? Or in your travels have you found that the ITF much like the WTF and other factions follow similar endurance and physicalness?




No, like others, they leave much to be desired. My complaint with them, is they do not know the syllabus or do not follow it They have little or no excuse because they are given the most complete documentation of any style that I know of.
Now my above quoted comments refer to Vietnam asking for TKD instructors to go there lng before SK sent soldiers to fight. The US sent military advisors before battle troops. I am not aware that they asked for fighting (boxing) instructors or the French for Savate instructors & Vietnam was a colony of France for years. The north Vietnamese communists had actual written orders to avoid hand to hand combat with the ROK soldiers. Soon other countries started to ask for SK to send TKD instructors & they did. Still to this day, countries ask, but they are for Olympic style coaches that have graduated from academic colleges with physical education degrees in TKD.

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#377569 - 02/27/08 11:53 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

[This is partially correct. Everyone was kind of stiff comapred to today but the ones who were more stiff were not the ITF style practitioners but rather the TSD and KSD practitioners who were karate like. The ITF style people were using many different techniques and trying to push the envelope.
The the people who became the eventual WTF founders used two techniques when sparring a front snap kick and a reverse punch that was it. It was easy for the ITF sparring with side kicks and revesre heel kicks and turning kicks etc. Just a note; These comments and others are not meant as comments about todays martial artists. This is simply historical information that I have been informed about and its has nothing really to do with the abilities (positive or negative) of today's Tae Kwon Doists




Agreed.

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#377570 - 02/27/08 11:57 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

GM CK Choi does those splits cold and he can do the high twisting kick cold as well. Its pretty cool to watch




Yes it is & I knew that, but was trying to give everyone something. These were super talented people in their prime. Hence the reason why they were snapped up by the general. Which BTW is not only unique to original TKD, but also one of the reasons why it developed so well & so far. No other MA or style of TKD can make this claim. Imagine being a military general & having access to numerous soldiers to pick & choose from. AWESOME & UNIQUE!

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#377571 - 02/28/08 12:27 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Yes its interesting.I would like to know does anyone practice this way?As hardcore as is made out.If TKD people are to claim its got it all or enough, why dont they just get training footage or enter something and then it would be done and dusted.No discussion.
Every one would shut up.We could all go and train like that and not have to look elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

No. I am sure you can try & find some that attmpt to. I think a couple in my school try. But you can not emulate what was done decades ago. Times have changed. Both advancements & restrictions, which we have eloborated on before, have made this a thing of the past. It is probably a big part of the reason for the MMAs now being on center stage. When I started the fighting arts in the early 70s, there was little need for MMAs, as MAs were new. I would not say the training was hardcore, like the military setting of the 50s & 60s, but it was spartan compared to today. JMHO
Quote:

Im interested in the modern MMA statement that comes up alot. What is the breakdown of this and were can they be seen,please? Its a korean take on Karate and korean arts.Thats a given. Referencing modern science. Iv seen people say it took from Judo.Where is this because iv not seen TKD resembling Judo or its training methods..Of course there are locks,throws and sweeps.Is this that influence?If so that influence has definitly lost its way. We can say that yes,if it does not resemble Judo in those Judo influenced moments?
Iv heard it took from boxing (?),though again,Iv not seen much that resembled quality boxing or the training boxers they do. What else?




Again, this original TKD was developed in the military for SD. It was headed up by a general who studied Karate in Japan & suppossedly TaeKyon as a teen (not verified). He was assisted by a Chung Do kwan senior member, who would rise to the rank of colonel, who by the way was the head of the 1st group of TKD instructors to Vietnam (1962) & another senior member of the CDK Han Cha Kyo & Gen. Woo Jong Lim, GM CK Choi's teacher & the only other Oh Do Kwan member to make the rank of general. Now what these men & others did, was to assemble & train countless soldiers. They drew upon all available fighting methods at the time, with the biggest influence being Karate. I guess every new MA can claim they are a modern MMA. However, I far as I know, what we considered MMA today, did not exist in that form then.
Now I think that it definately has lost its way, which is one of the reasons for this thread. I offer the history, so we can see the one time emphasis, why it was founded & offering that insight to help bring students back to it.



Quote:

I see your point about Larry Holmes ITFUNITY. Though,IMO,its different in many ways. For a start I can watch Larry holmes or see if what he does works and prove it or have it proven many times over.And in the context of this thread boxing,or Larry Holmes makes no claims beyond being great for fist fighting.
I will fold on that as it has no refence on me today or my training if I cant see it and be influenced by his tactics or techniques. Fair enough he must of been a good fighter and effective.




No doubt about it. You make all valid points. I only brought it up, as he got critiqued as GM Kong. Of course there was none of these things to document this, which is sad. That is why Dr. Kimm's book will help capture these early days for all generations to follow, as well as a documentary on TKD's development.

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#377572 - 02/28/08 12:33 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I read from ITFunity about his extensive 30 of training and travels and I wanted to know what he's found as I'm only 5.5 years into this and don't have as extensive knowledge to this fact as he may be able to shed light. I suspect he has found the same but it is nice to hear from others on this matter.




Yes sadly this is what my experience has shown me. The only good things is like you have said, TKD is now for everyone. I never had the physical talents that others are blessed with, but do know that TKD has saved my life & made my life so much more fullfilling & rewarding. That is a good thing. So, as you say, find a good school. A school that will best bring you what you need & want. If it is strict street SD, skip the traditional MAs & go for a get down & dirty, minus the pajamas, bowing, history, rules, regs etc.

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#377573 - 02/28/08 12:37 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

I think it will always depend on the school.



I agree.. but in the main, its still a no! Stuart




Absolutely! Hence the reason we are having this topic discussion. Its pretty obvious to me, that good TKD schools of SD are the exception & in many cases the rare exception. This doesn't mean you won't find a good one here & there. But if you want only real SD, look for that school that puts that to the top of their agenda.

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#377574 - 02/28/08 01:10 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Stuart, nice video. I think you and I could easily train at each other's school. I seen many drills we do as well. You are one person I would love to get together and sit down to compare our training and exchange ideas. Very nice.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377575 - 02/28/08 02:29 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Iv got no problem and neither has anyone else I think outside of TKD when its shortcomings are accepted .
Its when they are not that it looses face.Thats was my main point,though the threads gone off kilter.Its an interesting discussion though.

Your training is some of the best iv seen in TKD.
Though its still not as harcore as is made out Military TKD was IMO.From the claims about it.
I dont mean hardcore as just in beating the crap either.
And in terms of the MMA/NHB or all in type training in moments,it looks ok,but not to the level of a good MMA/NHB or all in place.IMHO.
I would say thats a big influence on that training yet it will be claimed TKD was always like that.
That will loose its face too.

Is that how its claimed they trained,like that footage?

I only use the term MMA/NHB because its easyier.I would prefer grappling with the idea of striking or striking with the idea of grappling.

In my opinion the best reference we have for a human being training to strike,for full contact,punches,kicks,elbows,knees,standing clinch just happens to be labelled Muay thai so I think any human doing that would train like that and it would resemble that bearing slight difference in technique.EG the difference in kicking.
Those methods are totaly proven.
So if TKD in the military was as effective they must of trained similar ,even if they did not know it.

Personaly I think Im just dissapointed TKD is not all its made out to be or works as well as is made out outside of its perimiters.Being told over and over again it does and that I must not be doing it right or training it right has made it loose face to me.I feel like saying 'No its not all my fault''.
If Stuarts footage is how they trained then in training in an MMA/NHB way the full hog im doing real better original TKD than most.
Mmm the discussion could never end.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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