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#377506 - 02/24/08 09:24 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:

Against another skilled person who is combining grappling and striking tacticaly it does not do well.Thats what Im saying.
MMA/NHB, UFC, forgett all those phrases as they bring up sport things.These just happen to be where you can safely test your stuff against the best.
There are sly digs at this all the time.''I dont want to fight in the octogan''.
''I wont meet an MMA person on 'da street''.
''Not everyone wants to ground and pound'' bla bla.

How do you know who you will meet or how good they are?You dont.Or whats going to happen in a chaotic,violent assault.So does it not make sense,and is more challenging and fun,to train with the best in mind?
So the ultimate test for a martial artist,unarmed is to face someone who tacicaly combines striking and grappling is it not?
What else is there.

My point is that TKD looses face when people make out it can hold its own in that enviroment.When people say TKD cant be done within rules because its for killing or something.Things like that.Its plain embarrasing.If you want to risk it thats fine.Want to just do TKD thats fine.But the truth has got to be there and in perspective though or TKD loses face.
Yes,technique wise they can powerfull.But you need to get position to do them and use them tacticaly,set them up,still be defensive etc etc.Theres non of this which takes into account facing a grappler who can strike.

People have been mentioned who have TKD backgrounds.Good.Lets get some footage up and see what they are doing.How are they using it?What are they using?What level of opponents are they facing?What styles are they doing good against or bad against?
Are they using TKD grappling?
Not as a negative thing,as a study.




If you want to do MMA, thats cool, it's your own thing. But you have to keep in mind that TKD(I'll use it sparingly because of what ITFunity told me) was created in a time where the concept of MMA wasn't mainstream or rarely heard of.
Can the same not be said about any other art? Muay Thai, Karate, etc? How does that differ from the concept of TKD anyway? What if you train in either of those arts and misfortunately meet an MMA sportsman on the streets? Would the outcome be any different?
What if you train MMA too? But somehow the other guy beats you at your own game(on the streets)? It all boils down to the fighter and his/her training. I'm merely summarizing what I've said earlier. Supplement your training. Acknowledge your flaws. No art is ever complete.

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#377507 - 02/24/08 09:38 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EvenRats]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

But you have to keep in mind that TKD(I'll use it sparingly because of what ITFunity told me) was created in a time where the concept of MMA wasn't mainstream or rarely heard of.




Actually EvenRats, I said TK-D can be considered a modern MMA, that was developed in the Korean military by fighters from all kinds of systems for SD. Of course back then, 1950 & 60s, there was no UFC or the many cage matches that are popular today.

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#377508 - 02/24/08 10:02 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:


Forgive me if I offend you but I have found many ITF people treat Choi like some patron saint. They stick him high on some grand pedestal and believe his writings to be much like the bible; thus making him their god of a sort. I don't see him as anything but a man, one that I owe nothing to nor acknowledge any more then a person in history; one of many who were involved in martial arts. Perhaps if I was ITF, perhaps if I cared about history instead of application then he may mean more to me but he doesn't and so when people throw his name out like it is suppose to mean something, it means nothing to me then throwing out any other random name. I suspect many ITF people will take offense to that but so be it; they must understand that he is not all important to everybody.




Definitely not offended. People can only take offense to words devoid of logic, common sense and articulation.

I wouldn't say many ITF practitioners place Gen. Choi on some grand pedestal. I'd say it go on the lines of acknowledging that he contributed much to the development and establishment of the ITF whilst respecting him. I've never met a person who threw his name out and expected people to pay respect to him.

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#377509 - 02/24/08 10:16 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:

Actually EvenRats, I said TK-D can be considered a modern MMA, that was developed in the Korean military by fighters from all kinds of systems for SD. Of course back then, 1950 & 60s, there was no UFC or the many cage matches that are popular today.




ITFunity, I meant "TKD" being used as an umbrella term. And you're right, "Taekwon-do" can be considered modern MMA. But theres a general lack of instructors who actually go through the entire cirriculum and in-depth nature of fighting systems such as groundfighting and submissions.

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#377510 - 02/25/08 01:32 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

2. I personal get sick and tired of people trying to divisionalize TKD holding one faction at a greater advantage then the other; I think each has equal merit and one is not better then the other if taught correctly. I can guarantee that there are many forms of Karate following different practices and I would dare say that other martial arts are the same. However yes, I am using the name Taekwondo as an umbrella because after all we are a kicking art; or seen more as a kicking art.




Umbrella name, thats cool. FYI, the ITF is not considered a kicking art, as approxiamtely 2/3rds of each's techniques are related to the hands. Do you have a guess or estimate on what % of feet you emphasize?




Good questions and one I've not really given much thought to so will now in this post. To be honest, we have kicking days and we have punching days not to mention days we focus on grappling, throwing, falling, self defense techniques, patterns, one-steps, breaking, etc. I cannot say that we emphasize any more on feet then hands and perhaps do more with our hands as well.

Remember, it is mostly the outsiders that see TKD as a kicking art and rightly or wrongly so due to what they see from the Olympics and such. And unfortunately there are schools that emphasize this; probably more then we'd like to admit. What it is though is that TKD's kicking stands out regardless of how much hands are used. The kicking of TKD (umbrella again) is fast and can be very flashy and what is remembered and expected; hence a kicking art.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377511 - 02/25/08 01:36 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

Perhaps if I was ITF, perhaps if I cared about history instead of application then he may mean more to me but he doesn't and so when people throw his name out like it is suppose to mean something, it means nothing to me then throwing out any other random name.




Well if you cared about history, maybe you would have a little more insight to how & why TKD is felt by some to be losing its face/popularity, which is the subject of this thread. Some may have some information to see where TKD was & compare it to where it is today. Understanding that road provides some answers to how we got here & how it may be sorted out. JMHO




Unfortunately ITF I think if you put the people that knew the history on one side and those that new very little to none on the other side; the side with the knowledge would be greatly out numbered. And I don't think knowing the history changes or makes me better understand the context of this thread.

I don't need to know history to use the application. Knowing the history doesn't make the application better. Repeatedly training the application makes the application better and that is what I train for. I don't need to know the history of the kick/punch I just want to know how to kick/punch; and people were kicking and punching since the dawn of time and they did not need to know the history of it they just had to make sure it worked.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377512 - 02/25/08 01:45 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I'm glad that nobody takes offense to my comments as that is just my personal opinion and each is entitled to it. For the records, if I received the training from my same Instructor who taught the exact same curriculum, I couldn't care a less if it was called TKD or called joe's martial arts; remember, my training doesn't seem to fit the majority of TKD schools. Yes we are influenced heavily by TKD and I like a lot of what it can teach however I've seen more and more it actually comes down to "who" is teaching it that makes the difference.

I also agree with an earlier comment of ITF, TKD is not losing its popularity as it is probably the most taught martial art there is. Is it losing face, to some maybe but to the majority that doesn't know better, I highly doubt it. And if it is then that will be for the better as then perhaps those teaching will look at what they are teaching and start teaching all of it; that can only be a positive.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377513 - 02/25/08 02:56 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EvenRats]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

I've never met a person who threw his name out and expected people to pay respect to him.




Stick around... you will!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377514 - 02/25/08 03:24 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Against another skilled person who is combining grappling and striking tacticaly it does not do well.Thats what Im saying.



One of the things people forget is that TKD & its parent art Karate were really designed to defend against non-trained people. That said, TKD, like other arts has to evolve to deal with the situations you present here, as well as other modern things. The problem is, many dont want TKD to evolve and if it does, theres suddenly shouting that its no longer TKD!!

Quote:

MMA/NHB, UFC, forgett all those phrases as they bring up sport things.These just happen to be where you can safely test your stuff against the best.



Actually, I think TKD missed out a bit there, as like the Gracies did to make their system famous - going round and fighting people - TKD done this also, but it was more formalised and after the demo and video wasnt big then to capture it all. For those who dont know, to gain greater popularity TKD toured the world doing demo's (50's/60's), after the demo, any member of the demo squad was open to be challenged and they often were, from what Ive heard they rarely lost. Whats more impressive is that it was just a couple of fighters trained up for this, but ANY of the demo squad members and when you consider they were in countries like Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia etc. it shows TKD was a decent art and could stand toe to toe with any other arts of the time.


Quote:

How do you know who you will meet or how good they are?You dont.



Thats exactly why all clubs should be teaching an suitable self-protection system. However, like I said above and others have pointed out, TKD needs to cover any short comings and evolve with the times. BJJ had to do this for the octagon, as have wrestlers and everyone else, the same is required for fighting outside of it.


Quote:

Are they using TKD grappling?



Id guess as much as a BJJ guy uses BJJ punching & kicking

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377515 - 02/25/08 03:24 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

If that, as you suggest, makes a TKDist reconsider how they train then it is good.




Quite agree


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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