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#377466 - 02/20/08 03:56 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
...and how many punches did the TKD guy throw? C'mon! Even WTF can do body punches in competition.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377467 - 02/20/08 04:10 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
He started to bring his arms up but they would drop down again. Karate, especially Kyokushin , train the body to take hits. Train as you would fight.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#377468 - 02/20/08 05:49 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: michaelboik]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

He started to bring his arms up but they would drop down again. Karate, especially Kyokushin , train the body to take hits. Train as you would fight.




I think Kyokushin is a great style, but that fight clip was painful to watch. It's obvious the TKD fighter was not in good shape, and not prepared for that kind of match. It's also clear from his motions that even in a WTF-rules match, he would've lost badly against a decent fighter.

Unfortunately, clips like these only further perpetuate the idea the Olympic style fighters can't use their hands. Every coach/master I've trained under has always told me to punch inside the clinch. Even if it doesn't score points, it's to your advandage to wear your opponent down and make them think twice about moving in close to stall/rest in the clinch.

Since presumably this was not a no-holds-barred deathmatch, it would be interesting to know what the rules of this particular engagement were. Since there don't appear to be any officials other than the center referee, I'd have to guess that this match was governed under Kyokushin rules, which basically means that your goal is to knock down your opponent rather than score points. Kyokushin is about attrition and survival (last man standing), whereas Olympic TKD is about scoring. Under Kyokushin rules, obviously the TKD fighter is disadvangated. Kyokushin and Olympic TKD have different aims (knock your opponent down vs. score points). As such, they train differently. TKD trains to evade and counter, so speed and foorwork are emphasized over toughening the body and absorbing as much punishment as you can. Not taking anything away from them, because I respect them a lot, but Kyokushin guys usually lumber forward and just keep hitting, ignoring whatever hits they take. That kind of fighting in a WTF match would lead to a loss, because it's about points, and the more hits you eat the more points your opponent scores.

I'd like to see this TKD fighter in Kyokushin match, since he's actually trained in the style, AND is a former US national team member:

http://www.highperformancetkd.com/main/master_suh.html

Check out his Pro-TKD match... much better example of what a good Olympic-style fighter. And yes, they even punch!


Edited by badachagi (02/20/08 05:56 PM)

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#377469 - 02/21/08 01:30 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Does anyone know which kind of Karate that guy was doing?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377470 - 02/21/08 05:15 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Prizewriter]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Sorry to jump in again so much further down the line

Quote:

I think that it can be agreed upon that TKD is an art influenced by several martial sources.



Yes, but its primary base art was Shotokan. It also has influences from Judo & Hapkido & possibly other things depending on the exposure of the instructors at the time, though Id consider them the main 3

Quote:

What always seemed odd to me in class (this is only my experience with TAGB and some WTF classes) was that those systems didn't always seem to agree.
As I commented before on the forums, when doing SD stuff in TKD class, it felt as though I was doing two different arts i.e. one were SD was taught, the other that used sparring, patterns and line work. The two had different approaches and didn't really work well as a unit.



This is quite true and is something many are trying to recify on a number of levels:
1. By adding more appropriate applications to the patterns and patterns training.. which then translates well into..
2. Hosinsul (Self Defence) as the applications can be used in this area so the 2 training areas merge much better. (One of my students is excellant at this, last night we were filming some hosinsul for a DVD and virtually every defence he did was straight out the patterns.. I was mighty impressed that its so ingrained in him now)... anyway
3. Sparring is an area of concern, and has mainly gone the route of the only free sparring done is competition sparring (Im not including step type sparring in this).. again, this is something that is being recified by more and more schools introducing "Traditional Sparring" which has no winners/losers, allows varying contact levels and most of all allows many more techniques that you cannot use in competition (knees, sweeps, throws etc.) and this area also crosses over with 1 & 2 above, as the same applications can be used in Trad sparring if the students can pull them off.

None of the above takes away any of the "Arty" parts of TKD as curently practiced.. solo patterns can still be perfected, competition and the sparring assocaited with it can still be done.. they simply make TKD more combat orientated and thus practical for SD purposes.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377471 - 02/21/08 05:45 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Having just read through most of this thread, I'm gonna add my tuppence worth on a couple of areas discussed... hope thats okay!

First of all, the type of training a school does can often be directly contributed to its enviroment. For example, a school in a rough area of the Phillipines will concentrate more on SD than sport as its a required part of daily living, where as a school in upstate New York may concentrate more on sport as the SD part isnt required as much, and it will (maybe unintentionally) cater for what the area wants.

That said, most schools will probibly have some form of SD, again how good or poor this is is mostly related to the attitude of the instructor and how much relevance he places on it. At my school, I see it as a very, if not the most important part of training in a martial art, but it doesnt have to be the only part.. hence we also compete in competitions etc.

TKD as a whole has a large area of SD related training, though in its formulative years this wasnt pushed so much (a mistake I believe) and as such has been sitting on the back burner for years..sadly.. but its there are ready to be utilized by those that wish to. My personal belief is that in the main, TKD lost its focus (the reasons are varied) and that is where many of the arguments about the good/bad of it come from.. not the art itself, but the way the art is now focused and taught!

As someone pointed out.. very few people start a martial art for the reason of soley doing competition, most see it as some form of SD with added benefits of fitness etc. So a club should provide these things as they are the core of Martial arts after all.

On the MMA thing.. MMA is a relatively new method (not sure if its right to call it an actual system) and of course with it popularity on TV the call for it is growing, much like kick boxing did. However, again, much like kick boxing & TKD as it grows popular people start seeing the or $$$ opportunity and water it down. Even near me there is an TKD school that now teaches MMA, even though the instructor has never trained with an MMA instructor.. when I asked him why he simply said its what the people want (in translation that means he can get more off more people) he also added that they arnt looking to get in the ring with it or anything!!! Sounds like many of the watered down, health gym kick boxing clubs to me!!

Further still, with the MMA thing.. many of the top guys have a solid base in traditional arts. And anything new and exciting will take people away from things that have been around for a while, same was true when BJJ came to the forefront. MMA I dont belive is a fad, though I believe people wanting to do it in high numbers is and this will fade off to reasonable levels as with other arts as the MMA scene settles.

I actually hope the popularity of sport only based TKD is fading, but not for other arts, but simple for a more round form of TKD! Oh, and ITF schools are as much to blame for sport based TKD as WTF schools.. they may teach 1 step and hosinsul, but how well do they teach it compared to getting the patterns nice and compeition sparring.. the problem is that too many equate trophies with quality martial arts, rather than simply good competitors and when thats done on an association level, that problems becomes a thousand times bigger!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377472 - 02/21/08 08:19 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Excellent Post Mr. Anslow and Amen !

VDJ

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#377473 - 02/21/08 01:45 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Sparring is an area of concern, and has mainly gone the route of the only free sparring done is competition sparring (Im not including step type sparring in this).. again, this is something that is being recified by more and more schools introducing "Traditional Sparring" which has no winners/losers, allows varying contact levels and most of all allows many more techniques that you cannot use in competition (knees, sweeps, throws etc.) and this area also crosses over with 1 & 2 above, as the same applications can be used in Trad sparring if the students can pull them off. Stuart




Nice post & great point. I call it free sparring, as you are free to use any technique, then the tournament sparring is just that, preparing for a competition, depending on the rules of the upcoming event.

I think when one looks at the encylopedia, the progression of fighting becomes clear, with HooSinSul at the end & tournament sparring completely seperated.

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#377474 - 02/21/08 01:54 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

TKD as a whole has a large area of SD related training, though in its formulative years this wasnt pushed so much (a mistake I believe) and as such has been sitting on the back burner for years..sadly..





Yes but remember it was pushed as a SD. The focus changed when the primary world governing body changed. The JiDoKwan, who were very instrumental in the present day formation of the WTF sparring rules, was motivated strongly by its desire to be different from its Karate roots, look at their symbol/patch/crest. When this was adopted by the new governing body, the push eventually changed the focus as well.

Quote:

Oh, and ITF schools are as much to blame for sport based TKD as WTF schools.. they may teach 1 step and hosinsul, but how well do they teach it compared to getting the patterns nice and compeition sparring.. the problem is that too many equate trophies with quality martial arts, rather than simply good competitors and when thats done on an association level, that problems becomes a thousand times bigger! Stuart




Commercialsim, insurance & a basic lack of knowledge of the brillance of the syllabus & the effect of only picking what you like from the "menu" or by moving them out of they sequence or not giving them the stated importance they deserve AND require! JMHO

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#377475 - 02/21/08 03:25 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Hello To all

Now that the comments are so much more balanced regarding the various tae kwan do organizations, ITF and WTF, I am really beginning to learn something and am not so defencive regarding criticism of WTF. This forum has definitely taken on a more positive and educational tone regarding our art. Thanks to all. I personally am learning a great deal from each discussion even from those I do not fully agree with.

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