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#377396 - 02/10/08 08:39 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY


Yes this is the one.

thanks

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#377397 - 02/10/08 09:53 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: VDJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
VDJ

Would you agree that you are more of an authority on ITF training methods than I am? Of course you are. The only thing that makes me an authority regarding the WTF and their training is that this is what I live day in and day out. You will not here me commenting on ITF training methods unless I become a member of one of their schools and experience it from getting down and dirty for many years. Again your statement of a good majority of WTF schools are sport only(with respect) is false. This statement is almost always thrown about by ITF participants. This is a ridiculous statement. I have never found a single school that this applies to, not saying there is no such thing, but if it were true the majority of people would have experienced their existants not just you. You are not the only person that gets around or is worldly. Again respectfully disagree I do! In this rift between WTF/ITF I find ITF persons to be much more bitter and radical in regards to this matter. In your opinion, please do some sole searching before you answer this, but do you experience more ITF participants bashing WTF, or do you experience more WTF participants trashing ITF? much more trash talk from non WTF even though there are less members. We do not think your training is inferior but we do enjoy our own and are confident in its effectiveness.


Edited by von1 (02/10/08 10:53 AM)

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#377398 - 02/10/08 11:39 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

VDJ Would you agree that you are more of an authority on ITF training methods than I am? Of course you are. The only thing that makes me an authority regarding the WTF and their training is that this is what I live day in and day out. You will not here me commenting on ITF training methods unless I become a member of one of their schools and experience it from getting down and dirty for many years. Again your statement of a good majority of WTF schools are sport only(with respect) is false.




Your posts makes 2 good points that I wish to dea with seperately. First & please do not take this as an attack, but there is no standard WTF training method. If one insists there is, it will only weaken their arguement that the WTF is not just a sport. WTF is a sports governing body. It has no standard anything other than the tournament rules. Also a school can not be a member of the WTF, only nations can be members. They can only be members of the countrie's respective NGB.
The ITF is a bit different. A school can be a direct member, with a numbered plaque. A student can be an individual member with a personal membership card. In some instances the ITFs will also allow more than 1 GB in a country. I would also imagine that in some countries there may or can be only 1 school, especially with the splits.

Also the ITF can more properly be mis-labeled a style, as many do look at it as a style, due to the standardization of the syllabus. In reality it is not. It is a MA governing body, that also governs tournament rules, training, promotion & certificate. It produces numerous training materials in various media forms. However, to be an actual ITF member school, one must have an official numbered plaque, with individual members, wear the ITF DoBok, following the ITF syllabus & get ITF BB certs. Many people fudge on these requirements, do some requirements stronger or closer than others. Often the syllabus is not followed completely.

Lastly, since many have the popular misconception that the ITF is a style, they look at anyone who does the ChonJi Tuls or Chang Hon patterns as ITF. That is just plain wrong IMHO. Now many look at a school as being WTF is they were the V neck DoBoks, follow Olympic sparring rules & hang a WTF flag in the Dojang. This is wrong as well. It has been my experience that MOST TKD schools I have seen do a very watered down MA, with more emphasis on tournaments. However I would agree with you & disagree with VDJ. I think most TKD schools offer more than just tournaments & do almost always, from what I see, teach SD. The question I raise, is how effective is that SD, especially compared to MMAs, which seem to have grown to the fact that so many MA schools have failed in the SD area. This failure IMHO is not limited to ITF, WTF, KKW, TKD at all.

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#377399 - 02/10/08 12:05 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

In this rift between WTF/ITF I find ITF persons to be much more bitter and radical in regards to this matter. In your opinion, please do some sole searching before you answer this, but do you experience more ITF participants bashing WTF, or do you experience more WTF participants trashing ITF? much more trash talk from non WTF even though there are less members. We do not think your training is inferior but we do enjoy our own and are confident in its effectiveness.




I would agree with this statement fully! It has been my experience totally. I think it comes right from the top, the founder. Because of Korean geo-politics in the 50s, 60s & 70s, (80s) a big rift widened, resulting in the creation of a 2nd TKD world body, the WTF. The competition between the 2 further widened the rift. An embattled Gen Choi spoke & wrote of this often. The WTF looked to break the ITF, label it as a small private organization & even ignore it by writing out of history the very valuable contribution of the pioneers of TKD, who more often than not, were linked to the ITF. This further enraged the General & his followers. This of course had the impact of filtering down to the students & subsequent generations, which now have access to the internet. Thats us!

The strategy the WTF employed was effective in disabling the ITF. It probably only recovered with the help of NK, which furthered widened the rift. This move did not spill down to their followers, as they wrote the ITF out of history & effectively labeled them as small style that was looked at as Karate, which was run by a embittered communist symphathizer & then an outright traitor. Therefore many of their followers are not aware & frankly most students of TKD, regardless of their school just DON'T CARE! It doesn't really impact their training or the focus of why they joined a TKD DoJang.

The interent is helping to get the word out. There are several projects on the history of TKD in the works, which will help as well. However, strangely it appears that it is Korean geo-politics will or may help close the gap. More people in SK are being re-introduced & in more cases introduced to the military style of TKD for the 1st time because of the geo-political happenings.

The sad part is that many ITF students fail to adhrere to the tenets of TKD when they engage in debates centered around the facts of TKD's history & development. This is not right & has no place in the MAs. JMHO

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#377400 - 02/10/08 12:11 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY

Good post agree with much of what you said. As far as the, how effective is that self defence regarding MMA, the point I have been trying to make all along is that our self defence will stand up to MMA as well as any ITF organization. All things equal meaning the best against the best. However, way to many people wrongly mistake MMA competition to represent self defence which it is not! It is competition/Fighting not self defence. Real self defence has techniques to deal with the ground aspect but rules and ethics do not permit effective techniques to be used. Competition Fighting is different than self defence! agree? People continue to confuse the issue of SD and fighting in an MMA competition including many martial artist.


Edited by von1 (02/10/08 12:20 PM)

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#377401 - 02/10/08 02:45 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
oops!

I keep making the mistake of referring to myself and others as WTF just want to make it clear that I am referring to organizations that use WTF sparing as a tool for training. Sorry to anyone that I may have confused by these statements.

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#377402 - 02/10/08 03:41 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I dont think WTF sparring is a good training for learning to kick .Its a sport.It trains you to kick when the other person can not punch you in the face,try to take you down,try to tie you up or try to low kick you.
When a person can do all these things ,and more, kicking dynamics and tactics change especialy if the other person is good at being multi-dimensional and a violent loon.
So its right people have a go if WTF people try to make out the sparring is anything but sport.

Not all people who train MMA/NHB type sparring,training and drills do it for sport.Its the closest training you will get to reality besides going out and getting attacked or getting into fights for a few hours a week.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377403 - 02/10/08 04:58 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:


VDJ

Would you agree that you are more of an authority on ITF training methods than I am? Of course you are. The only thing that makes me an authority regarding the WTF and their training is that this is what I live day in and day out. You will not here me commenting on ITF training methods unless I become a member of one of their schools and experience it from getting down and dirty for many years. Again your statement of a good majority of WTF schools are sport only(with respect) is false. This statement is almost always thrown about by ITF participants. This is a ridiculous statement. I have never found a single school that this applies to, not saying there is no such thing, but if it were true the majority of people would have experienced their existants not just you. You are not the only person that gets around or is worldly. Again respectfully disagree I do! In this rift between WTF/ITF I find ITF persons to be much more bitter and radical in regards to this matter. In your opinion, please do some sole searching before you answer this, but do you experience more ITF participants bashing WTF, or do you experience more WTF participants trashing ITF? much more trash talk from non WTF even though there are less members. We do not think your training is inferior but we do enjoy our own and are confident in its effectiveness.




Von,

I don't know if you read my post thoroughly. First and foremost I AM NOT A MEMBER OF ANY ITF ORGANIZATION ! My instructor is a very accomplished WTF competitor as I had pointed out in my other post and is Kukkiwon certified. Yes, I have been to a couple of ITF seminars with Master Parm Rai and only because I have developed a friendship with an ITF member who invites me to these seminars, so no I do not consider myself an authority on ITF practices. I will leave that up to people like Master Earl Weis, ITFunity and VDan whom I know have a better knowledge of the inner workings of the ITF, as their posts have proven! Yes, we do practice a majority of the ITF patterns, but also implement WTF patterns at the Black Belt level. The organization to which I belong, the AAU, is a sister organization to the WTF's NGB, TKD USA, in the states. As far as my statements about the majority of WTF schools being sports oriented is false, again, read my post closer, that has been MY experiences, as it has also been MY experiences that the more hostile schools have definitely been WTF affiliates. I have been in dojangs that said things like "Oh, you do the communist patterns", I'm thinking, how can a pattern be communist ? And yes, I have been to ITF schools that are the same way giving me crap about wearing the V-neck dobok. These are the kinds of schools that I do not return to. (I know that we have been putting definitions to what the WTF and ITF actually are, but I am only referring to the schools this way as to keep a simple way of identifying them). So please understand, I am not claiming to be an authority on either the ITF or the WTF (though the AAU follows closer to the WTF infrastructure), I was only remarking to you as you had a tone in your posts as that you had some authorative knowledge about the WTF rather than just following their rule set.

VDJ

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#377404 - 02/10/08 05:26 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: VDJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
VDJ


Fair enough, maybe I did come to some false conclusions regarding your post.

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#377405 - 02/10/08 05:41 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
MATXTX

You obviously have not been keeping up, the sparing is a nice tool to work on kicking however it is not how we fight or respond to a SD situation. Sparing and fighting are two different things and self defence is yet another. Way to many people think of these three as being the same. Every martial artist worth their salt knows how to put things together at the appropriate time whether it be sparing, fighting, or defending oneself. I will not deny it is a sport you get no argument on that, all competitions are sport that includes MMA competitions which I have already admitted are much more entertaining. Do not fool your self into thinking that full contact WTF competitions are a walk in the park though, there are many knock outs and have even experienced death. Any aspect of your training that you work on repetitively will always improve those skills. The sparing is only one part of the training.


Edited by von1 (02/10/08 06:02 PM)

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