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#377336 - 02/05/08 01:27 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
It really is not a myth about TKD instructors capitalizing on the "Olympic" connection. Are there some good to excellent WTF, schools ? Absolutely, but with the amount of travel that I have done in the USA and the amount of schools that I had visited and allowed to train in, I have found the ITF schools both much more welcoming and with much more attention on the SD aspect of the art than WTF schools do.

In response to your MMA puzzlement as to why the refs don't stand them up faster is two fold, first off, the fighters are actually implementing techniques when on the ground, even when it looks like nothing is happening. Secondly, though they have added more rules to the matches than when they first started, they are trying to keep it as close as to a real fight as possible, and in a real fight on the street there is not going to be a ref there to make you stand up and start over if the fight goes to the ground !

VDJ

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#377337 - 02/05/08 02:01 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
If anybody grapples then you know that it can take time to set up a move to work especially if your opponent is equal or greater then yourself. I have grappled over 20 minutes non-stop with some people till we were extremely fatigued only to push on; better technique comes when you have little strength. The thing is the people want to see action and the people really don't understand the ground game and why in say Pride they stand people up faster then they do the UFC. Of course some of the ground game is stalling or weighing your opponent down (cooking them) so as to tire them but that is a part of the game too. For MMA the ground game is an important factor and therefore some of this has to be allowed and I personally think for the most part the UFC does a good job letting things go and restarting things; not to mention I have seen them stand people up when they were busy or just about to capitalize on a mistake by their opponent.

I think if people better understood the ground game then this wouldn't be an issue for MMA. If they understood it is about anticipating and setting up your opponent and that you can feel subtle movements and that you must play it like chess and set up several moves a head of what you are doing to get to the point you want, then again it wouldn't be an issue.

TKD is being used in the UFC and elsewhere with guys such as Ivan Salaverry, Stephan Bonnar and David Loiseau, plus others I'm sure. However like any fighting it won't look exactly the same as pure techniques are hard to come by and face it, when fighting it all looks the same; punching, kicking, etc.

I think we are getting more derailed; my apology for my part.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377338 - 02/05/08 04:21 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
To ITFunity,VDJ, and Dereck, all good points not sure I agree entirely but worthy of consideration- thanks for your input.

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#377339 - 02/05/08 07:39 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:


Perhaps the relevance of the MMA post to TKD allegedly losing its popularity is that many people might say "TKD is useless cos it has never won UFC" (rightly or wrongly).




Last time I checked I didn't enter Tae Kwon Do thinking I would win the UFC or that I would become a proficient grappler/wrestler.

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#377340 - 02/05/08 07:53 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
The history of all martial arts is usually that the best techniques rises to the top because the best fighters adopt them because they want to win or stay alive. My instructor said they would go anywhere to learn new technique. If thye heard about somebody who had a gret technique they would go and see to learn. When they did the demo tours they would allow open challenges from the crowds. They trainned and taught karate, then Tae Kwon Do. They included judo and weapons and defense against weapons. They created new techniques like the spinning hooking heel kick. Remember that TKD is a very young art and was a merger of all that was avaliable at the time and some new techniques as well.

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#377341 - 02/06/08 12:41 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

The history of all martial arts is usually that the best techniques rises to the top because the best fighters adopt them because they want to win or stay alive. My instructor said they would go anywhere to learn new technique. If thye heard about somebody who had a gret technique they would go and see to learn. When they did the demo tours they would allow open challenges from the crowds. They trainned and taught karate, then Tae Kwon Do. They included judo and weapons and defense against weapons. They created new techniques like the spinning hooking heel kick. Remember that TKD is a very young art and was a merger of all that was avaliable at the time and some new techniques as well.



This is true, but limited to original TKD. Not the branch that veered towards the Olympic sparring style.

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#377342 - 02/06/08 08:53 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Remember that TKD is a very young art and was a merger of all that was avaliable at the time and some new techniques as well.




Well, I doubt that this was in fact the case. Looking at the art, I cannot believe there were experts from many grappling arts involved in the creation of Taekwon-do. Perhaps there was some link with Japanese Jui-Jitsu but the art looks much more like a direct development of Shotokan karate, with perhaps some additions from an indigenous Taekyon, although even these influences may be disputed.

I think that every new MA on the block would like to claim that it is the sum of current knowledge, however these claims should always be taken with a pinch of salt. We must look to the creators' training histories, and in the case of TKD, Choi's main training was in shotokan, not in Judo or Aikido. He did do some form of Jui-jitsu I think(ITFUnity?), but not extensively.

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#377343 - 02/06/08 10:43 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Flynch,

But you are obviously one of those superior beings to whom it doesn't matter. However, to those who are easily led by fads and trends such things might be influential.

On the matter of becoming a grappler... don't forget, before UFC most people had never considered doing any grappling and thought striking was the be-all-and-end-all.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377344 - 02/06/08 01:09 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
It would agreee to a certain extent. TKD was definately influenced more by the Karate and that is what has carried on and been passed on from teacher to student. I just wanted to let people know that at the beginning there was other components which included Judo. I can ask if there where actually judo experts involved in the trainning.

Now I was not personnaly there but I am relaying information that was told to me by somebody who was. So take that as you will.

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#377345 - 02/06/08 01:25 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I will let others determine my level of superiority and not comment on it myself.

I just don't think that the UFC is relevant to TKD's validity as a martial arts. It is not an apples to apples comparison

You may be correct that UFC is more popular so people flock to it just as WTF TKD is in the olympics so some are in awe of it (some of my relatives). The UFC has brought grappling some popularity.

When I was young boxers were cool, that was the trendy thing to study.

I don't think there is anything wrong with somebody who wants to learn any martial art TKD, judo, karate, kung fu, etc or if somebody wants to cross train or if somebody wants to do ultimate fighting. Its all good.

Certain arts will come in and out of popularity as time goes on. People like new/different things.

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