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#377356 - 02/07/08 07:29 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

What I find ironic about the Olympic connection with Taekwondo is that many ITF schools have benefited from it too, though many will not even entertain that thought. Think about it, when you joined taekwondo did you know the politics or did you join because it was a popular martial art made possible because of the Olympic connection. many people joined their schools never knowing anything about ITF/WTF me included, I just happened to join a school with a WTF connection.



I started KMAs when there was only 1 org & that was the ITF. I didn't know who or what the ITF was when I joined my 1st formal school. It happened to be an ITF registered school. I did eventually learn about the WTF when their style fighting started to surface. I then really only became aware of the ITF/WTF political mess, as my Korean master was forced to drop out of the ITF by the KCIA interference invoked at the behest of the Korean military dictator Park Chung Hee & Dr. Kim Un Yong. My teacher refused to join the WTF, as they required his original Dan certificate to be turned in, before they issued his new upgraded rank. He refused & in doing so explained & demonstrated to me the value of a BB cert signed by the founder.

As far as ITF schools benefited from the Olympics, I can tell you this. I worked hard to help the ITF gain IOC approval, to no avail. I was bitterly dissapointed. I think in the long run it also helped, as it is showing what original TKD is. That is how my school is marketed, so we gain some rather small benefit from that. I follow the current merger talks closely & think it would be determental to how my Art is taught. I do think the Olympic status has helped the name TKD & the student population grow. However, that growth has a price & that growth does not really impact us, as we do original TKD. In fact, many, myself included, think the Olympic focus has hurt the SD image of TKD.

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#377357 - 02/07/08 11:57 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: VDJ]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:


The reason I share this with you is many of us here are well aware of why WTF competitors train the way they train. It is also a reality (though maybe not in your school as it is also not the case in mine)that a good majority of the WTF schools are "SPORT" only, and try to pass off the "SPORT" aspect as SD. I say this as I had mentioned to you prior as that has been my experience at numerous WTF schools due to my ability to travel and visit them. Now we were going back and forth on this before, and it may have been fileboy who I was debating this with but really can't remember, but someone made the comment that like 85% of these schools were not teaching SD. I don't think that it is that high of number, but I do believe that a MAJORITY do teach in this manner. Now I never said anything (nor have many who post on this subject) that the majority of people who train think they will go to the olympics, but many schools push it because they WANT the students to think it is a possibility. So those are the reasons you read what you read here. Many people are informed of what WTF is about, and as I mentioned earlier, if you are a figure to which you have personal dealings WITH the WTF, then please let us know in what way.

VDJ




I don't think your 85% figure is accurate. First, there are groups/teams out there (like Juan Moreno's group in Miami, or Team Jiro in CA) that are exclusively training groups for TKD athletes, and I'm pretty sure they don't purport to be anything more than that (i.e. teaching self-defense), so I think you can take those types of places out of your figure.

That leaves dojangs and schools that are operated as such, i.e. they have belt promotions, teach forms and other things besides sparring. I think you'd be surprised at the number of schools that have strong TKD competitive programs that also offer other types of training, incl. self-defense. While there are definitely schools out there that have a strong sport focus, I wouldn't say that they are more than half. I feel safe in saying this because a school that focuses too much on sport won't make money.

At any given school, a small percentage of the students will be interested in hardcore sport TKD and competition. If all you teach is sport, than the rest of the students will not stay with the program for long, and ultimately you're school will fail. So unless you're one of the aforementioned sport TKD teams (I have no idea how they pay bills), you have to offer other things besides sport to be a profitable business.

Unfortunately, for too many (at least, too many for my taste), those "other things" are baby sitting and aerobics (cardio kickboxing I think it's called?).

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#377358 - 02/08/08 01:08 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

At any given school, a small percentage of the students will be interested in hardcore sport TKD and competition. If all you teach is sport, than the rest of the students will not stay with the program for long, and ultimately you're school will fail. So unless you're one of the aforementioned sport TKD teams (I have no idea how they pay bills), you have to offer other things besides sport to be a profitable business.
Unfortunately, for too many (at least, too many for my taste), those "other things" are baby sitting and aerobics (cardio kickboxing I think it's called?).




I couldn't agree more!

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#377359 - 02/08/08 08:51 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
At our school we offer Krav Maga as well, and as for the self-defense part of our Tae Kwon Do, it is based on Krav Maga.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#377360 - 02/08/08 09:53 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Quote:


The reason I share this with you is many of us here are well aware of why WTF competitors train the way they train. It is also a reality (though maybe not in your school as it is also not the case in mine)that a good majority of the WTF schools are "SPORT" only, and try to pass off the "SPORT" aspect as SD. I say this as I had mentioned to you prior as that has been my experience at numerous WTF schools due to my ability to travel and visit them. Now we were going back and forth on this before, and it may have been fileboy who I was debating this with but really can't remember, but someone made the comment that like 85% of these schools were not teaching SD. I don't think that it is that high of number, but I do believe that a MAJORITY do teach in this manner. Now I never said anything (nor have many who post on this subject) that the majority of people who train think they will go to the olympics, but many schools push it because they WANT the students to think it is a possibility. So those are the reasons you read what you read here. Many people are informed of what WTF is about, and as I mentioned earlier, if you are a figure to which you have personal dealings WITH the WTF, then please let us know in what way.

VDJ




I don't think your 85% figure is accurate. First, there are groups/teams out there (like Juan Moreno's group in Miami, or Team Jiro in CA) that are exclusively training groups for TKD athletes, and I'm pretty sure they don't purport to be anything more than that (i.e. teaching self-defense), so I think you can take those types of places out of your figure.

That leaves dojangs and schools that are operated as such, i.e. they have belt promotions, teach forms and other things besides sparring. I think you'd be surprised at the number of schools that have strong TKD competitive programs that also offer other types of training, incl. self-defense. While there are definitely schools out there that have a strong sport focus, I wouldn't say that they are more than half. I feel safe in saying this because a school that focuses too much on sport won't make money.

At any given school, a small percentage of the students will be interested in hardcore sport TKD and competition. If all you teach is sport, than the rest of the students will not stay with the program for long, and ultimately you're school will fail. So unless you're one of the aforementioned sport TKD teams (I have no idea how they pay bills), you have to offer other things besides sport to be a profitable business.

Unfortunately, for too many (at least, too many for my taste), those "other things" are baby sitting and aerobics (cardio kickboxing I think it's called?).




I agree. The 85% was not a number that I had quoted, it was a guesstimate from another poster to me which I disagreed with. The only thing that I had agreed with the other poster is that the majority of the schools were more sport oriented as to that was my personal experiences with them as I traveled and visited them. I found the ITF schools to be much more SD oriented.

VDJ

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#377361 - 02/08/08 10:10 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: VDJ]
paddyska Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Coatbridge, Scotland
I'm ITF style but I've been on a few seminars with Master Sang H Kim (WTF)that have been half kicking drills and half serious kick-@ss self defence, That guys SD knowledge is awsome!

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#377362 - 02/08/08 11:10 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY
Respectfully, What do you consider to be original Tae kwon do, It seems to me that all of today's martial arts could be considered sport arts, this is why there is a knock on the striking arts for not having a ground game, or not enough ground game. Lets face it, if the arts that focus perdominatly on striking were taught to be what they once were(killing of the enemy with 1-3 strikes to vital spots) none of the striking arts would need much of a ground game, the last place these combatants wanted to be was on the battle field in the dirt striving for a dominant position to ground and pound the enemy. They strove to strike first, strike hard, strike with precision at vital points and end the encounter fast hopefully ending it in a death so as to move on to their next victim. In to days world these techniques will land you in prison, so all the striking arts have switched to a more competitive focus/sport! We are all being trained to compete with little emphases on killing(this is a good thing) we need now to fight and because we do not want to kill anyone there is now a need for a ground game aspect to our training, there lies the knock on most all the striking arts and the emergence of MMA! Just an observation that I will probably catch he-l for any thoughts anyone?

P.S. I am not implying that people who participate in any of the striking arts could not do great damage or kill an assailant I am only saying that striking arts today have a new goal, competition and entertainment, and they are all losing the battle to MMA. What people in the striking arts were originally meant to be (killing machines when necessary) these skill sets do not transfer over for entertainment because people will die. Many people now days consider MMA to be the real and ultimate form of martial art. The observers of competitions love it when people bleed, me included, however I do not consider MMA to be the real deal as a martial art form. I consider it to be a brutal form of entertainment and a bit of a brawl and have already been informed I am a duff-us for this opinion. To summarize, original striking arts were meant to cause death to an opposing enemy they did not want their warriors to fight, that was their deal and it was real. Not trying to come across as an authority just attempting to stimulate conversation. I can take it if you want to call me a duff-us.

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#377363 - 02/08/08 12:11 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFUNITY
Respectfully, What do you consider to be original Tae kwon do, It seems to me that all of today's martial arts could be considered sport arts,.......




Your post has too much for me to repond to. I agree with some of it & disagree with other points. There is some truth to your overall concept & still some concepts that are too broad.

But here is what I think is most important:
Original TKD is hard to state, as it is very controversal & many can not even define what TKD is. So here goes! TKD was nmaed in 1955, with the name submitted by General Choi & eventually accepted by President Rhee of SK. Now most did not even use the name, except Gen Choi & his followers, mostly military men in the Oh Do Kwan & Chung Do Kwan members. In fact, when Gen Choi left to go to Malyasia as Ambassador, the KTA was actually called Korean Tae Soo Do Association. It was not till he finished his diplomatic assignment & returned to SK, when he was elected the 3rd president of this KTA & he changed the name to K.TKD. Assoc. So for 10 years, few even used the name. Some did not accept it till 1972, when the Kukkiwon was formed & 1973, when the WTF was set up. Finally, many Kwans did not use the name or accept it till 1978, when they retired the Kwan system & officially numbered them.

Now here is the tricky part & controversial area! The only ones who were really using the name TKD was Gen Chois' followers. They also had somewhat of a standard syllabus, although not as comprehensive as today. They went abroad & started to make TKD popular. It appears that others jumped on the popular bandwagon, much later on, but remember, they were doing something different & the WTF centered on sport only.

So to me, it is rather clear, original TKD is a modern MMA, that was eveloped in the military of SK for SD, under the diection of Gen Choi & his followers, who then spread it abroad. I try to avoid the controversy by just referring to it as ITF or Chang Hon style of TKD. It doesn't make sense to claim others are not doing TKD, when they have many more members & have been very successful in spreading it & having it achieve Olympic status.

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#377364 - 02/08/08 12:13 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Agree
On the serf ace it would appear that the Olympic connection has hurt the self defence reputation of tae kwon do this is what inspired me to respond to this forum. To many practicing tae kwon do people are spewing out statements like, pity patter, competitors do not learn self defence, no hand skills, can not ground fight, bla bla bla, and it has been getting more prevalent on these threads. I was attempting to quill some of this WTF bashing because it simply is not deserved. It ultimately leads people to think that tae kwon do is an inferior art form. I have noticed more and more tae kwon do people buying in to this and felt it needed to be addressed. It isn"t really the olympic connection it is our own bickering and lack of respect for each other that is propelling this thinking which will eventually become a self full filling prophecy unless we tae kwon do practitioners pull together and try to understand each other, learn from one another, and show more respect for what each is doing. As I stated before we are our own worst enemy, I could give a hoot what a non Martial artist thinks about our art, they are not expected to know what we are about other that what the see on tv. I do think as a group we should understand each other and be more open minded.

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#377365 - 02/08/08 12:17 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Even those that JUST do Olympic sparring, are still in a better position to defend themselves if they did nothing. However, compared to other forms, if you want SD, one must train in that system which does SD & nothing else. Even ITF TKD would not fit this bill, as there are more efficient SD systems. However ITF TKD is an Art form of SD, that has other more important goals & other aspects, including a sports aspect that competes in 5 categories.

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