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#377346 - 02/06/08 01:27 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Well, I doubt that this was in fact the case. Looking at the art, I cannot believe there were experts from many grappling arts involved in the creation of Taekwon-do. Perhaps there was some link with Japanese Jui-Jitsu but the art looks much more like a direct development of Shotokan karate, with perhaps some additions from an indigenous Taekyon, although even these influences may be disputed.
I think that every new MA on the block would like to claim that it is the sum of current knowledge, however these claims should always be taken with a pinch of salt. We must look to the creators' training histories, and in the case of TKD, Choi's main training was in shotokan, not in Judo or Aikido. He did do some form of Jui-jitsu I think(ITFUnity?), but not extensively.




You can rest assurred that this was the case! Remember our original TKD was developed in the military, asa fighting system for soldiers. The general had access to thousands of talented fighters, from boxing to wrestling from all types of MAs. Now his training was limited to Shotokan karate & some claims of TaeKyon, which have not been independently verified. I never seen info on other arts for him. I can not speak to what grappling forms or Arts there were then, maybe someone else can. However, your major mistake is to think that Gen Choi was the only founder. he was the principal founder & the leader.

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#377347 - 02/06/08 03:24 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I would guess for grappling much came from Hapkido. My own Instructor's Master was from South Korea and taught a blend of TKD and Hapkido that included groundwork and was the foundation for our system. His Master instructed both Korean and US Marine troops this format.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377348 - 02/06/08 04:50 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Flynch, I wasn't making any comment on rights or wrongs. Someone just asked what the MMA posting had to do with anything. For me, I find MMA is used by a lot of TKD-bashers (and any other art bashers).

Maybe like yourself, I never started MA (in my case TKD) thinking I was going to be a grand-champion. I've dabbled in other arts, like Jujitsu and Backhold Wrestling but the popularity of MMA has never been a deciding factor for me to embrace it (my dodgy back being another reason).
_________________________
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#377349 - 02/07/08 01:30 AM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I would guess for grappling much came from Hapkido. My own Instructor's Master was from South Korea and taught a blend of TKD and Hapkido that included groundwork and was the foundation for our system. His Master instructed both Korean and US Marine troops this format.




I agree with you inprinciple, but am not sure about the term HapKiDo. I thought that was a term that came from Japanese AikiDo. But I won't go down that path. Dr. Kimm's book is being printed on the history of KMAs. Volume 1, deals with Hapkido & is currently being printed. So that might help inform me more.

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#377350 - 02/07/08 12:00 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: VDJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
VDJ

Of course WTF schools try to capitalize on their Olympic connection. What I am trying to communicate to non WTF practitioners is that is only part of our training and that most WTF people use Olympic sparing technique's for training to perfect our kicking, countering, foot work reflex, muscle memory, attack identification etc. The most challenging part of Taekwondo to master is kicking. The rules regarding no hand strikes to the head are so we can work on kicking with out a fist in our face to disrupt that part of the training. The hand strikes are much more natural and easier to deliver and master. We have training that puts it all together for realistic application, But for some reason many people do not understand this and think that our competitions are what we are about. 99.9% realize we won:t be competing for Olympic participation. There is a misconception that all we care about is Olympics and we don:t know the difference between sparing and fighting/self defence. It is quite amusing to listen to people talk about how people who spar under WTF rules would probably try to defend them selves the same way they spar in a competition. We as a group are much better with our hand techniques than many people want to believe, or admit. Now the one part I will concede is the ground aspect. We do train for this but it is lacking. I personally believe it is because, and you should agree with this I think, there are techniques that will keep one from going to the ground but you would probably go to prison if you are not careful.

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#377351 - 02/07/08 12:20 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Supremor]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
I think that it can be agreed upon that TKD is an art influenced by several martial sources.

What always seemed odd to me in class (this is only my experience with TAGB and some WTF classes) was that those systems didn't always seem to agree.

As I commented before on the forums, when doing SD stuff in TKD class, it felt as though I was doing two different arts i.e. one were SD was taught, the other that used sparring, patterns and line work. The two had different approaches and didn't really work well as a unit.

Compared to other arts where principles of SD movements are the same as the movements found in sparring/free play and kata/forms, I found TKD to be a bit peculiar in this way.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#377352 - 02/07/08 01:37 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Von, you are correct. When we spar for TKD in class it is under WTF rules however our school isn't high on competing. We do have some interclub fighting a couple of times a year and our Juniors do have a fight team though that seems to be diminishing as they grow older and join the adults (who don't compete). Plus in class with self defense and with influences from BJJ as well as MMA, fighting is not just TKD sparring but sparring including everything from stand up to take down. I would even say that for those such as myself that who do compete in grappling tournaments exceeds those who compete in TKD sparring and the numbers are rising. Not to mention others who have competed in kickboxing and full contact fighting. If you have an interest in competing in other forms then our Instructor has no problem giving extra attention to those areas.

For those that try to fit all WTF in a tight little box thinking things are only one way, they are grossly uninformed.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377353 - 02/07/08 02:39 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Dereck
Nice to here from you. Your instructor sounds like a keeper. What I find ironic about the Olympic connection with Taekwondo is that many ITF schools have benefited from it too, though many will not even entertain that thought. Think about it, when you joined taekwondo did you know the politics or did you join because it was a popular martial art made possible because of the Olympic connection. many people joined their schools never knowing anything about ITF/WTF me included, I just happened to join a school with a WTF connection. My instructor does push competition not for trophy he constantly reminds us doest"t matter win or lose, he does it so we as students can learn to manage fear, manage pain, an occasionally be humbled when our heads get too big. He feels one needs a variety of opponents to truly see how your skills stack up. He even pushes older people to compete and many do and fare quite well.Not saying that competition is everything but you do learn to manage stress.

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#377354 - 02/07/08 03:19 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1672
Quote:

VDJ

Of course WTF schools try to capitalize on their Olympic connection. What I am trying to communicate to non WTF practitioners is that is only part of our training and that most WTF people use Olympic sparing technique's for training to perfect our kicking, countering, foot work reflex, muscle memory, attack identification etc. The most challenging part of Taekwondo to master is kicking. The rules regarding no hand strikes to the head are so we can work on kicking with out a fist in our face to disrupt that part of the training. The hand strikes are much more natural and easier to deliver and master. We have training that puts it all together for realistic application, But for some reason many people do not understand this and think that our competitions are what we are about. 99.9% realize we won:t be competing for Olympic participation. There is a misconception that all we care about is Olympics and we don:t know the difference between sparing and fighting/self defence. It is quite amusing to listen to people talk about how people who spar under WTF rules would probably try to defend them selves the same way they spar in a competition. We as a group are much better with our hand techniques than many people want to believe, or admit. Now the one part I will concede is the ground aspect. We do train for this but it is lacking. I personally believe it is because, and you should agree with this I think, there are techniques that will keep one from going to the ground but you would probably go to prison if you are not careful.





Von,

This is what I was trying to get at with my earlier post in your assumptions of what people here "Think" and say about WTF. Although you respond to me very politely, you are assuming that I am ignorant of what the WTF does for training and are projecting yourself as an authority regarding the WTF, if you are, then I apologize, but respectfully ask in what capacity do you work for the WTF or are your opinions just that, YOUR opinions of why the WTF trains the way they train? Alot of what you say is true, alot of what is said by others here about it is true as well. A little background, My instructor is a certified Kukkiwon/WTF 4th Dan and certified 6th Dan in the AAU (A sister organization to the former USTU now known as TKD USA). She is a 13 time national champion within the AAU, a 3 time international champion at WTF sanctioned events as a member of the USTU national team. She was also a competitor for a spot on the 1992 olympic team (the same team that Herb Perez was part of) until she had to withdraw due to injury. She is also a former NY State trooper with both patrol experience and a self defense tactics instructor.

The reason I share this with you is many of us here are well aware of why WTF competitors train the way they train. It is also a reality (though maybe not in your school as it is also not the case in mine)that a good majority of the WTF schools are "SPORT" only, and try to pass off the "SPORT" aspect as SD. I say this as I had mentioned to you prior as that has been my experience at numerous WTF schools due to my ability to travel and visit them. Now we were going back and forth on this before, and it may have been fileboy who I was debating this with but really can't remember, but someone made the comment that like 85% of these schools were not teaching SD. I don't think that it is that high of number, but I do believe that a MAJORITY do teach in this manner. Now I never said anything (nor have many who post on this subject) that the majority of people who train think they will go to the olympics, but many schools push it because they WANT the students to think it is a possibility. So those are the reasons you read what you read here. Many people are informed of what WTF is about, and as I mentioned earlier, if you are a figure to which you have personal dealings WITH the WTF, then please let us know in what way.

With respect,

VDJ

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#377355 - 02/07/08 07:18 PM Re: Taekwondo loosing it's face/popularity [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

For those that try to fit all WTF in a tight little box thinking things are only one way, they are grossly uninformed.




Please see Badachagi's great post on another thread concerning same. Thanks

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