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#377636 - 03/04/08 04:56 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Everyone from the top downwards as General Choi did non at it at seminars I know of.Did not grade countless people on it.Coultless pioneers not mentioning it.So it would of been a cop out on there part for not giving paying students what they knew or how they realy trained.





Please understand some basic facts/points. TKD is the world's most popular MA. However, there is very little standardization with the Art, other than the name & for many the tournament rules. Many simply look at TKD as an umbrella name for KMAs, (striking). Others look at it as a martial or olympic sport. The smallest group is governed by the ITF & is often called Chang Hon.

The military Art of SD was from the Oh Do kwan, which later developed into the ITF or Chang Hon style of TKD. It is often referred to as original TKD, as it was the 1st to use the name, using it for some 10, 17, 18 or 23 years before others widely accepted its use. As the KTA, Kukkiwon & WTF identified themselves as a KMA, via mostly the tournament sparring rules, following the lead of the JiDo kwan, others called the ITF/Chang Hon traditional TKD, as it empahasized less sports sparring rules. Over time, when this version of rules was adopted & then included into the Olympics, this way of viewing TKD grew more popular. Note, the popularity of TKD around the world, belongs initially to Gen Choi, the pioneers & the ITF, but later & maybe even more so to Dr. Kim & the WTF, along of course with the KTA & Kukkiwon.

The 70s saw a bit of a change to mixing MA styles or techniques (note avoidance of using MMA), led by Bruce Lee & JeetKunDo. The 80s with the arrival of the Karate Kid movies & then the 90s with the NinJa Turtles, moved kids in large numbers to what was previously an adult SD based activity. I think these movements led to an increase or surge in MMAs to fill this void.

The pioneers did emphasize SD. It waned when what people wanted changed or when they realized that more money could be made by increasing access to TKD to all people for more reasons. In the 70s, my ITF school, led by an ITF Master had spartan training that was SD based. Fighting on the floor was not allowed, as it was (according to my teacher) impolite & against the sparring rules. This was rectified by myself & others when we had our own school.

Gen Choi taught SD. He did it his way & that was it must be based in realism. So when official ITF registered schools do not follow this, they are not following his wishes. As far as repeated criticisms that the founder did not cover SD at his seminars, that is not wholly true. However, the overwhelming attention was always to movement & Tuls, as this was his signature & what helped set off TKD from other MAs. He required strict standardization to that aspect & was very successful in doing it on a worldwide basis. However, as most would realize & concide, SD is a personal aspect, with little standardization, as what is required is dependent on attacker(s), defender(s) & situation, including enviornment. Hence little time was devoted to this, as it was best handled by the actual teacher, who knows the student best.

Now there seems to be much criticism of TKD, both here & in general. However, here is seems to me, that the defense & then counters are for the most part limited to original TKD, aka, traditional or military SD, which we know was the basis for the ITF. One must keep in mind, military training is that, for the military.

Now is there a defense of TKD to be made by other than Chang Hon based TKD students?

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#377637 - 03/04/08 05:05 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Well i guess it is effective if you have on army boots and you have just throw your attacker to the ground. But you might want to learn the throw as well

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#377638 - 03/04/08 05:06 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

No.Never said it did.Explain the point please.



Point is, when a TKD school incorporates something not in its original make up (ie. decent groundwork) then suddenly everyone says its no longer TKD!

Quote:

Im not talking about throws.I no full well its not just punching and kicking.



No sure you do.. as obvious if there are throws there is stand up grappling, and if a throw is performed and the fight continues, there is ground fighting.. all the bits you sem to feel arnt/wernt there!!




Quote:

If you were to claim that was how they originaly trained,like your clip,yet there is no other similar footage or talk of it or any of that demonstrated then they all would of copped out for not showing it like that.



Quote:

Everyone from the top downwards as General Choi did non at it at seminars I know of.Did not grade countless people on it.Coultless pioneers not mentioning it.So it would of been a cop out on there part for not giving paying students what they knew or how they realy trained.




Quote:

Not really, instructors are free to teach what they want. I dont teach it to junior grades, and wont allow the heavy contact stuff til BB. Though I agree in part that Gen choi pushed too much of one side of the art & not the other. Perhaps Mr Flynch can ask GM CK Choi if he sparred with more than punches & kicks!





This is what I mean by realism. If you are fighting freely (free sparring) with almost everything goes for SD, how can you not at times end up on the floor?
If this is the case, how can you not continue to fight?
So when schools do not do this, they simply are not following the founder's directions & are mistakenly, inadvertingly or otherwise, mixing SD with tournament sparring. Not a no-no for the Art, but for the teacher.
JMHO

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#377639 - 03/04/08 05:16 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

TKD has it all,hang on whats all,oh it was basic,hang it isnt its as good as judo,we roll,they rolled,no they dont,its the military,they dont go to the floor,hang they sparred on the floor,wait, erm.?
Its all over the place.It changes in so many places to suit.

I believe what I know and think I have an honest down to earth veiw of what TKD is and is not.Ill continue to find out and make my own mind up.





Yes I see your point & agree somewhat. However, I think you judge TKD on what you see & not what it is suppossed to be. In the end, it is all about money for many. TKD has suffered as it became more commercialized, just like other MAs. Now MMAs I believe was born out a a real need to fill this SD void. As such, it is successful IMHO in that aspect. There is no question in my mind, that if one wants a more hard core, street tuff SD, they need to consider joining a MMA school & not a TKD school. However, a real TKD school following its original design, can offer a good & effective SD for many, plus a whole lot more. Just don't confuse which TKD school you should join, as when making a choice, one must find what best fits their individual needs with a school that is in the best position to meet those needs or requirements of the student.

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#377640 - 03/04/08 05:19 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I asked and here it is. "If people think TKD just uses hands and feet then it is not properly taught" GM CK Choi
Preparation for tournament sparring was completely different and usually seperate from normal sparring.
Actually in class they were allowed to spar with holding, grabbing, knees, elbows, judo throws and even foot stomp opponents on the ground
If you are in a small close quarters fight you have to fight with these things and the following.
Head butts, groin attack and throat attack etc are taught in different ways. It is pretty hard to use those in free sparing safely.





Sounds like GM Choi Chang Keun has been training ay my or Mr. Anslow's school! LOL
Just kidding, but thanks Mr. Flynch, as I couldn't agree more.

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#377641 - 03/04/08 05:22 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Interesting that I recall a couple of years ago TKD Times having an article by a Master who was saying how the role of the stamp/stomp had been forgotten and should be reintroduced.




Stamping Kick
Cha BapGi
Required technique in our system.

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#377642 - 03/04/08 05:37 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
It is also useful for generating power when there is little room for reaction force. I'll see if I can find the article, but I think one of my language students might have it somewhere.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377643 - 03/04/08 05:46 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

However, I think you judge TKD on what you see & not what it is suppossed to be.




I just want to address this.I judge it on taking it very seriously in the past,hard training,research,what iv seen, what iv trained,questioning everything and trying them.

I would like to think im making properly thought out points that are unbiased to anything.

Lots of other points you make I dont agree with in places and others I do.

I just wonder when a line will be drawn on what TKD is and was.Did it have everything originaly any other style has and was hardcore?
One minute its yes then its no.
Does it have things not in there and could be better and modernised with up to date training drills,methods and ideas borrowed from other sources ?
One minute its yes then its no.

Its too confusing to bother discussing it seems.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377644 - 03/04/08 05:52 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I think that it has to develop, even if that means going backwards to pick up some things which have fallen off the roof.

Personally, I think that now the General is gone then it will become harder to define TKD as it slips under its own umbrella term and begins to re-examine itself and how it needs to adapt.More and more exponents are exploring ground techniques and I think these will eventually become a major part of the syllabus. Even people like Hee il Cho have worked many years incorporating aspects of Hapkido into their art.

On that point, I once asked Mr Cho how far you can adapt and change before it isn't TKD. His reply was that, in his opinion, if you remembered where you came from you would always be TKD. I think this is where the art and philosophy comes into play over the mere physical technique.


Edited by trevek (03/04/08 05:53 PM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377645 - 03/04/08 05:54 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
On another point, I think it might be entirely possible that before all the standardisation many teachers specialised and no one school wuld have 'the' entire syllabus.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
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