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#377626 - 03/03/08 03:29 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:

What I think a lot of people forget something about the evolution of TKD when considering Chang Hon. It was developed through the military and taught to soldiers.

I stand (pun intended) to be corrected, but probably one of the last things you really want to do in a combat-zone encounter is go to ground. I imagine you want to be able to out manouver them and perhaps throw them down and take them out, not spend valuable time rolling with them when their buddies might suddenly appear.




I am not sure if this is allowed but basically as they said it karate kid.

Fight for life not for points.

Your enemy was trying to kill you so you would need to defend yourself with that in mind. This has been told to me repeatedly by one of the instructors of TKD in the korean army.

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#377627 - 03/03/08 03:39 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Flynch, what I meant was that rolling and locking-out are things to do if you have time and actually don't want to kill.Surely grabbing and throwing then following up with a kick to the downed man would be better than going to ground and rolling with them.

OK, I do take your point about the need to be able to deal with any kind of attack.

There are pictures of early CH TKD demos showing unarmed defences against rifle/bayonet attacks, which are probably more likely the kind of thing you'd come across in the field than Royce Gracie.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377628 - 03/03/08 06:40 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

No.Never said it did.Explain the point please.



Point is, when a TKD school incorporates something not in its original make up (ie. decent groundwork) then suddenly everyone says its no longer TKD!

Quote:

Im not talking about throws.I no full well its not just punching and kicking.



No sure you do.. as obvious if there are throws there is stand up grappling, and if a throw is performed and the fight continues, there is ground fighting.. all the bits you sem to feel arnt/wernt there!!

Quote:

Now youv moved the goal posts.Your doing an updated version with modern elements incorporated and trying to progress in areas.Which is great.



Nope.. see above. That type of sparring wasnt main stream but it did go on.. hence why I was taught it (my instructors been doing it 40+ years btw)... bit like the applicational side of things actually. I have seen some old footage of it, many years ago, but not sure where it was or how to find it now, hence why I havnt mentoned it. The main difference was that when one went down, they went for a finish (as in a strike) rather than "rolled".. as mentioned in previous posts.

Quote:

If you were to claim that was how they originaly trained,like your clip,yet there is no other similar footage or talk of it or any of that demonstrated then they all would of copped out for not showing it like that.



Dam.. now Im gonna have to do some research and try and locate the footage.. probibly on an old video somewhere. On second thoughts,, its probibly on the net somewhere if you go look.

Quote:

Everyone from the top downwards as General Choi did non at it at seminars I know of.Did not grade countless people on it.Coultless pioneers not mentioning it.So it would of been a cop out on there part for not giving paying students what they knew or how they realy trained.



Not really, instructors are free to teach what they want. I dont teach it to junior grades, and wont allow the heavy contact stuff til BB. Though I agree in part that Gen choi pushed too much of one side of the art & not the other. Perhaps Mr Flynch can ask GM CK Choi if he sparred with more than punches & kicks!


Quote:

Yes.The instructors.That what I meant by those above me.As a young guy I put my seld in there shoes to teach me realistic SD.[/quotes]
Perhaps you should speak to them then!

Quote:

All I mean striking with the idea of grappling.Or vice versa.



you think thats a new thing.. appearing only with MMA!! many styles do that!


Quote:

Ok We disagree.I dont think many TKD puts itself into honest perspective,.Lots claim,in my experience, its realy lethal,it has anti-grappling,we dont need this or that etc,its to kill, all that over top malarky.



Many arts claim many things to sell it.. including MMA. The claims dont really matter as its down to the practioner. I take it you`ve seen a lot of TKd then.. as three long time practioneers on here, one with 3/4 decades behind him have told you so, but still you feel you know better cos you cant find a video on youtube or something!

Quote:

Do most clubs train for sport?Id love to see statistics.
UFC? Whats that got to do with it.Thats just a place for people to challenge in a competition.Its a place to apply MMA.



MMA is good alround stuff, but has limitations like anything else.. after all, you fight how you train, and if that is diving the the ground then your in for trouble on the street. Im not saying all MMA clubs do that, but they do train that for the competitive side. Same applies to the way other arts are trained.. including TKD. I think the sport stuff comes from the fact that MMA evolved from sport.. the UFC.. as pointed out by Trevek in his post. MMA didnt evolve the UFC it was the other way around.. in the early UFc's billed as "Mixed Martial Arts" it was just that, a competition involving a mixture of martial arts fighting one another.


Quote:

And every MMA person looks for submissions too?Erm ok.A bit of type casting going on.



Oh I agree.. but then again, watching the high profile MMA stuff on the box, you see a hell of a lot of that kind of thing, hence a lot of training for it must be going on.. after all yuo fight how you train.. especially in UFC/MMA comps.

Quote:

In your book you have a section on misinterpretations of TKD.Surely you can see that its funny for you to then make assumptions about MMA.



I dont make those assumptions.. Im refering to why others may do. Still, perhaps it will give some of the MMA a decent section for their books instead of all the pages on submissions eh!

Quote:

Again,your making assumptions.



I havnt made any assumptions.. just the facts.. rules of sport prhibit certain things.. things which are fair game when theres no rules involved.

Quote:

The tactic I train is to strike at very high intensitys and not get caught in A submission game,Strike strike strike ONLY go for submission if it happens to be here or its all you have.



Not very mixed is it


Quote:

You have still got UFC sport in mind.



Thats cos thats most of the MMA I see.. though a friend of mine went to Pain & Glory a while back and he said it was mostly ground stuff too!! Plus, as said, MMA evolved from UFC!

Quote:

I would not say MMA was 'invented'.Its progressed.



Progressed from what... people mixing various parts of martial arts.. kinda like the exact thing you disagree with ITFunitys referral about eh!

Quote:

The gracies and UFC just brought it to light.So im guessing you mean at that point it was 'invented'.
Sorry if I missenterpret that.



Evolved maybe.. again, from the UFC, which the Gracies invented to highlight their style.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377629 - 03/03/08 06:43 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The real SD was all the stuff before it went physical.Awarness,talking down etc.



Actually thats "SP" not "SD". SD comes after that and fighting follows after that!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377630 - 03/04/08 01:59 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:


Point is, when a TKD school incorporates something not in its original make up (ie. decent groundwork) then suddenly everyone says its no longer TKD!




I agree people do that.Never said anything to do with it.I said you incorpoated and its good to progress.So was not sure why is was directed at me.If it was.

Your joking right?
You write a chapter and go on about how TKD is misenterpreted then do it your self?
Its ok for TKD to 'roll' and its not sport,but if MMA guys do it its sport?
TKD has it all,hang on whats all,oh it was basic,hang it isnt its as good as judo,we roll,they rolled,no they dont,its the military,they dont go to the floor,hang they sparred on the floor,wait, erm.?
Its all over the place.It changes in so many places to suit.
And you dont seem to know much about MMA or whatever you want to call it beyond sport or clique crap.
Im not repectfull of that kind of behavour so dont realy care anymore or about your views.

I believe what I know and think I have an honest down to earth veiw of what TKD is and is not.Ill continue to find out and make my own mind up.
Plus im not a TKD hater yet I cant make points without seeming to be so.
Your instructor is important in British martial arts then.What is his name so I can pass that on and ask others who know alot if they came across him.
And find that footage that demonstates ALL you have been saying.

Cheers.


Edited by matxtx (03/04/08 02:21 PM)

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#377631 - 03/04/08 02:10 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: matxtx]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
LOL Stuart and matxtx =

_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#377632 - 03/04/08 02:25 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: trevek]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Quote:

Flynch, what I meant was that rolling and locking-out are things to do if you have time and actually don't want to kill.Surely grabbing and throwing then following up with a kick to the downed man would be better than going to ground and rolling with them.

OK, I do take your point about the need to be able to deal with any kind of attack.

There are pictures of early CH TKD demos showing unarmed defences against rifle/bayonet attacks, which are probably more likely the kind of thing you'd come across in the field than Royce Gracie.




Yes I agree. The judo throws were taught, the defense against rifle/bayonet were a primary focus as that was the weapon of choice on the battlefield at that time (we are still learning/teaching these defenses good or bad). Remember also that as part of the trainning thye had to become proficient in the use of the rifle/bayonet, staff/pole and knife. Should we be teaching this given we are teaching defenses against them?

I have learned eye gouge, head butt, throat attack, and groin attack as part of self defense in a life or death situation. In these cases the attack is meant to as you say end the fight before it gats started by disabling your attacker.

I agree that you proably want to avoid going to the ground in this type of environment and I am not sure if your opponent would be trying to take you to the ground either. But learning new stuff never hurt anyone...I guess.

This is not to say anything about the effectiveness of grappling in this situation as I have no real idea about this.

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#377633 - 03/04/08 02:58 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
I asked and here it is. "If people think TKD just uses hands and feet then it is not properly taught" GM CK Choi

Preparation for tournament sparring was completely different and usually seperate from normal sparring.

Actually in class they were allowed to spar with holding, grabbing, knees, elbows, judo throws and even foot stomp opponents on the ground

If you are in a small close quarters fight you have to fight with these things and the following.

Head butts, groin attack and throat attack etc are taught in different ways. It is pretty hard to use those in free sparing safely.

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#377634 - 03/04/08 03:20 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: flynch]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
wow, that's pretty cool stuff flynch.

Interesting that I recall a couple of years ago TKD Times having an article by a Master who was saying how the role of the stamp/stomp had been forgotten and should be reintroduced.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#377635 - 03/04/08 04:24 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

What they showed on the tours is not documented either as well as caught on film?
Convenient.



Dunno about documented (perhaps ITFunity could answer that).. as for film.. no one had video cameras in them days Im afraid!





I am sure that documentation exists. However, I am not sure in what form. The point was already made video cameras were few & far between. I will follow up on this, but it will take awhile.

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