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#377606 - 03/01/08 11:51 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: janxspirit]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

MMA does not mean just "mixed Martial Arts." It does not mean "Any Two or More Martial Arts Mixed Together."

MMA is specifically referring to a mix of functional striking, grappling, and submission arts operating in all three ranges - stand up, clinch and grappling.





Sorry, but I am using the literal translation. I am ignorant as to any accepted present day definition, so please forgive me. But to me, when you take a MA & combine it with another or others, it is plainly a MMA. As I stated previously, I do not add a specific % mix, or set formula of the mix, just using a general common sense or literal translation.

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#377607 - 03/02/08 12:32 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

MMA does not mean just "mixed Martial Arts." It does not mean "Any Two or More Martial Arts Mixed Together."

MMA is specifically referring to a mix of functional striking, grappling, and submission arts operating in all three ranges - stand up, clinch and grappling.





Sorry, but I am using the literal translation. I am ignorant as to any accepted present day definition, so please forgive me. But to me, when you take a MA & combine it with another or others, it is plainly a MMA. As I stated previously, I do not add a specific % mix, or set formula of the mix, just using a general common sense or literal translation.




This is precisely what I meant with my earlier post where I said calling TKD an MMA or saying that it was developed as an MMA is misleading. The term "mixed martial arts" and the abbreviation "MMA" was not even widely used until UFC promoters started using it to describe their sport. Thus the de facto accepted meaning of MMA today is the ring sport as exemplified by UFC, Pride, etc. One can call TKD, or Hapkido, or whatever combination of martial arts as MMA based on the "literal" meaning all you want, but you are doing so in contradiction to how most people use that term. If you walk into an actual MMA gym and tell them you also teach an MMA because you teach TKD, they will be totally confused.


Edited by badachagi (03/02/08 12:34 AM)

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#377608 - 03/02/08 03:10 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: EvenRats]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

What does it take to make TKD credible?



I dont believe we can in some peoples eyes. If you teach a crappy school or stick to the old patterns/comp sparring type of thing.. they are labeled TKD/rubbish or if you try to do something about it, your labelled "Not TKD anymore"! Cant win either way!

Quote:

What's the root of the problem? Do we remove all the Mcdojos?



Wouldnt that be great!

Quote:

Why not just train our practitioners for MMA and send 'em out to UFC, Pride etc. and call it day?



See point 1

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377609 - 03/02/08 03:15 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The term "mixed martial arts" and the abbreviation "MMA" was not even widely used until UFC promoters started using it to describe their sport. Thus the de facto accepted meaning of MMA today is the ring sport as exemplified by UFC, Pride, etc.




Im in agreement with this (in the main), though I also understand where ITFunity is coming from, and though the term MMA is used as you say, people were refering to those systems that combined bits of other arts as "Mixed (martial) Arts" way before "MMA" became the catch-all term for the modern UFC etc (circa 80s & 90s).

Like I said, I understand ITFunitys point but wouldnt use it to decribe TKD myself. Interesting that you say its to "describe their sport" but when people refer to it as "sport" many get disgruntled!!!


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377610 - 03/02/08 03:24 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: janxspirit]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

MMA does not mean just "mixed Martial Arts." It does not mean "Any Two or More Martial Arts Mixed Together."

MMA is specifically referring to a mix of functional striking, grappling, and submission arts operating in all three ranges - stand up, clinch and grappling.




I think thats probibly the best definition of MMA Ive heard.

Going back to the OP, obviously the rise of MMA has contributed to everything elses popularity, so I have a question for you.. why do some MMA clubs feel the urge to slag off other martial arts?

After reading your definition, which as I said I thought was good, I went to have a look at your site and saw this page: http://www.stlouistrainingcircle.com/not.to.expect.htm

Hence my question?

I ask as it reads as if it refers to the whole world of martial arts rather than localised clubs (that may be a bit "iffy" in your area or make a point about Mcdojangs etc.. I just wondered why the club feels the need to do that. I always felt it a bit undignified to slag off other arts/clubs when instead you should just list the good points of your own club as you have done on the other page.. and let people decide to themselves! Besides which, much of it is incorrect and OTT!

No offence, Im just wondering why some clubs do this sort of thing as it seems to be a bigger thing in MMA circles!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#377611 - 03/02/08 11:43 AM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: badachagi]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

MMA does not mean just "mixed Martial Arts." It does not mean "Any Two or More Martial Arts Mixed Together."

MMA is specifically referring to a mix of functional striking, grappling, and submission arts operating in all three ranges - stand up, clinch and grappling.





Sorry, but I am using the literal translation. I am ignorant as to any accepted present day definition, so please forgive me. But to me, when you take a MA & combine it with another or others, it is plainly a MMA. As I stated previously, I do not add a specific % mix, or set formula of the mix, just using a general common sense or literal translation.




This is precisely what I meant with my earlier post where I said calling TKD an MMA or saying that it was developed as an MMA is misleading. The term "mixed martial arts" and the abbreviation "MMA" was not even widely used until UFC promoters started using it to describe their sport. Thus the de facto accepted meaning of MMA today is the ring sport as exemplified by UFC, Pride, etc. One can call TKD, or Hapkido, or whatever combination of martial arts as MMA based on the "literal" meaning all you want, but you are doing so in contradiction to how most people use that term. If you walk into an actual MMA gym and tell them you also teach an MMA because you teach TKD, they will be totally confused.




badachagi


I totally agree. Personally I had seldom herd the term mma until the emergence of the ufc, pride ect. I believe that the term took on an identity of it's own and now days is automatically identified with these organizations and as a sport by most people. The rules for competition distinguish it a sport.

TKD as trained will not be effective in this area because much of what we learn to combat or negate some of this type fighting will never, and appropriately so, be allowed in competitions. This is why I part with people that feel mma is a stronger SD system. Yes ground fighting is great if you have to go there but a properly trained striker should not have to during SD unless caught off guard or overwhelmed by numbers and in this case one is probably screwed anyway. Ground should still be learned but definitely not priority. Many of us could take a person down but how many of us would want to do it with a thumb in our eye and our head facing the wrong way! just a silly example you get the point. I catch h-ll for this opinion from people because mma has done a good job of promoting it's self and many identify it as being the ultimate SD, the real deal, I do not. Mma is very popular but I would not call it SD I call it realistic fighting and one is trained to fight this way in the confines of specific rules mostly for SPORT!

What is ironic is that prior to training MA most of us were more likely to crudely defend like an mma fighter, you know end up on ground wrestling around ground and pound etc. Any one who has had to fight as a kid or young adult has been there. Personally I joined MA to become more than that even though I was very good at it. I am not knocking MMA I find it very entertaining. I am just saddened, amazed ,and disappointed at the number of TKD persons that think what they do does not measure up to MMA for SD. If one feels this way one should be asking them selves if they are training where they need to be. This is where I personally believe TKD might be losing some popularity.

For me personally, as a MA's I am about SD not fighting and I do not believe for a second that on average my SD training does not match that of an MMA fighter. I would however admit that an MMA fighters training is tougher due to the type of competitions they train to compete in. I could pick up my own training if desired and if I wanted to be a fighter. I guess what I am saying is that I have high regard for MMA fighters, they are a physically and mentally though bunch and in this regard have an edge on most any single art training today. However when it comes down to SD technique, any properly trained TKD practitioner should do just fine comparatively speaking but lets not confuse our sparing as self defence. This is another area where people want to try and wrongly compare TKDs SD skills by assuming that this is all we are about. If TKD wants to save face we should be show casing our SD training as much as we do our sparing competitions, only then will people understand what we are and how we match up against other arts. This would also force those schools with inferior training to step up to the plate and properly train their students.


Edited by von1 (03/02/08 12:12 PM)

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#377612 - 03/02/08 03:30 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
EvenRats Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:

why do some MMA clubs feel the urge to slag off other martial arts?




Because some people are incredibly inept and lack any reasonable logic. Some even attempt to make valid points but it ends up being a bias and troll-fest.Its the typical "My dad kicks your dad's arse" playground argument.

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#377613 - 03/02/08 03:57 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So ,Stuart,you are saying that TKD trained like originaly?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, I didnt say that, not as a whole across TKD. there were definatly some instructors training with more than kick/punch.. but not as a main stram thing. Though if we look at TKD as a whole, the manuals, all the techniques, the different training methods etc. then I think that was there.. I also think that the whole -- "make TKD well known and uniformed" -- thing took over.






I got the impression you were saying it did.Trying to give more credit to TKD.Which has been my point as to why it looses face.Which is the thread discussion.

Mas Oyamas best fighter ,Kurozaki Kenji, lost to a Thai fighter and then went over and trained and he brought those methods back and Kyokusin karate incorporated them.

What they showed on the tours is not documented either as well as caught on film?
Convenient.
We can only imagine that it must of resembled later filmed tours or what was in the encyclopedia and what was taught by the original TKD people.
Now if they did not show it then they copped out.Hee Ill Choi,Jhoon Rhee,Rhee the british pioneer.Countless others.Virtualy all of britain,probably american,Even what was going on in korea.They neglected to show that or put it in?Then they all sold out.I dont havethe encyclopeia but it was up to those above me to show me.And those above those etc.So its all a sham and that gets on my tits big time if thats the case.And so it should everyone else.And it destroys all the tenents and philosophy if thats the case.

Yes times have evolved.So its good to add it.Bang on what iv been saying.I dont agree on saying it was all there originaly which I got the impression was being said.


Now your saying its basic.You didnt say that before.
The loose face thing is the discussion.My point was it looses it by making out TKD is more than it is.So thats what that is.Just my veiw that.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Tkd looses face if,and I get the impression some are,TKD is put on a pedestal beyond what it is.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sorry, you lost me there... what are you talking about!!





Like I said.My point.If you were claiming TKD had it all anyway,which it looked like you were,that would be ridiculus.
Now I know you were not.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It does not make sense for some to dismiss MMA training as sport


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It really depend son the mindset of the instructor/student IMO. Problem in, from what Ive seen, most MMA cubs train ground 99% of the time.. and thats the last place you would want to be in a stret fight.. hence the "sport" anology many make. Personally i can see its ebnefits for SD if trained right!






Thats a mistake then.Its the equivilent of others saying TKD is all kicking from what they have seen.

My point was why is it ok for TKD to train like that a for it to be original TKD and great for SD, yet if MMA guys do it its sport?
As soon as MMA was mentioned it got jip and I defended it.Then footage of 'original' TKD is shown using the same ideas and it was ok.
It did not make sense.
If original TKD was as is said,then noone in TKD can say anything against MMA as they would be the same.And anyone training in MMA type ways would actualy be doing original Tkd,or more original TKD that those just punching and kicking and a few locks or throws.
I hope you see that point.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That point does not matter if you did it before or after it became commercial.It means you would of said ''yes they have caught up with us, that is good training''


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Personally I dont care either way, MMA is fine, TKd is what i do and have to teach my students... so I do it to the best of my ability with the tools I have.. Im no rogue to jump ship just cos MMA is the new big thing! Ill stand by TKD but at the same time I understand its weakness, but also do what I need to to correct that. You & others can debate than on a forum.. as is it, is it not TKD.. I dont care.. my students are my priority.




Good.Glad you see its weakness.Like I say,you seemed to have been making out TKD had it all originaly.
Im a rogue yea.Just after good solid training.Ships ahoy.I will incorporate my TKD into it if no onw is going to show me another way.If every one has copped out of showingme what can I do?
And if I do that,by your terms,I will bedoing original TKD anyway by training like that.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must of been annoyed when Geoff Thompson got so much recognition from his 'Animal days'.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No. Geoff is excellant and a genius.. those that dont listen to what he has to say are simply ignorant.. why the f##k would I be annoyed.. im more annoy that you would assume such a thing. BTW, geoff is trad karate you know or did he have an insight into MMA before it was born.. that must annoy you




I said that,sarcasticaly, because if you were doing it alread you would be a pioneer like ,Geoff or Steve Morris who was doing way,way before.''Everyday was animal day in Earlam street'' to quote Steve.
Yes Geoff was trad but alot of his stuff comes from boxing,judo,sambo that works and his adapting of trad to make it work.As Trad it did not work.He said that himself.
Anyway.Going off topic,sorry.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377614 - 03/02/08 04:01 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: janxspirit]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
MMA does not mean just "mixed Martial Arts." It does not mean "Any Two or More Martial Arts Mixed Together."

MMA is specifically referring to a mix of functional striking, grappling, and submission arts operating in all three ranges - stand up, clinch and grappling.




Well put.Kind of what I was trying to say.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#377615 - 03/02/08 04:08 PM Re: Taekwonddiscussio loosing it's face/popularity [Re: von1]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england


Quote:

I catch h-ll for this opinion from people because mma has done a good job of promoting it's self and many identify it as being the ultimate SD, the real deal, I do not




I dont know many who say this Von.So you wont get much jip.Or should not.Most say that MMA type training is just the closest thing to a real fight you get without actualy going out and fighting.Thats all.
And its not just about ground fighting or ground and pound which people who dont train in it seem obsessed with bringing up.

Ok Von.Post some good realistic SD training.
Thats what we need.Footage.
We can get footage of street cams filming assaults.Footage of fights.Footage of MMA fights and compare them all.
Footage of real choatic violence and see what it looks like.
The thread has gone bonkers lets go the whole hog.
Its turning into a kind of 'style' verses.
Let just make it a good training verses bad training thread .


Edited by matxtx (03/02/08 04:42 PM)
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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