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#377226 - 01/06/08 02:14 PM rear naked nothing?
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
has anybody else noticed how good some of these MMA guys are getting at defending the rear naked choke, pretty soon you'll get fighters not even bothering to try it on some guys.



Edited by shills11 (01/06/08 02:14 PM)
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#377227 - 01/06/08 02:41 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: shills11]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I don't ever see that as somebody will always give up their back and that says, "try the rear naked choke". Because I can't hit somebody with my hands or feet doesn't mean I stop. I used to use the Tree-Up (Americana) a lot until the people I trained with knew how to defend from it and understood when I was setting them up however I may not use it as much but if the opportunity presents itself, I most certainly am going to attempt it.
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#377228 - 01/06/08 03:01 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: shills11]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

has anybody else noticed how good some of these MMA guys are getting at defending the rear naked choke, pretty soon you'll get fighters not even bothering to try it on some guys.







I think the problem lies with the gloves they fight with. Its difficult to get ANY submission when you're wearing MMA gloves. The choke seems particularly hard because you have to get your hand/arm underneath his chin while he's defending. That can be hard enough Without gloves against who recognize the threat (those who train), never mind with gloves.

Did you happen to see Marcelo Garcia's MMA fight (can't remember his opponent)? He had the back position for quite some time and could never sink the choke. Yet in submission wrestling, he's renowned for his ability to get that choke. The difference is the gloves.


-John

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#377229 - 01/06/08 03:14 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
While I think that gloves probably DO make a difference, I also think that a lot of folks are getting better at defending RNC's compared to a few years ago.
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#377230 - 01/06/08 03:58 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: MattJ]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
TBH, I think the gloves are only a minor factor in the difficulty of getting a RNC. If you remember the things they used to wear in Pride... now those things were difficult to slip under the chin.

There are two factors which play the biggest problems IMO. Firstly, as others have mentioned, people are getting better at defending them- i.e. grabbing the second hand rather than the one under their chin. They are also much better now at attempting to escape the leg hooks and spin on top. The second problem is the lack of grips that makes getting chokes generally much harder. When you've got a gi on, it is much easier to set things up- you can leave a hand gripping the lapel under the chin, distract them with something else, then sink the choke in- without a gi to grip, it is difficult to keep your hand under the chin and to manipulate the arm with your other hand. Basically, there are only a couple of ways you are going to get a choke no gi, but with the gi on, there are so many ways you can get caught.

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#377231 - 01/06/08 04:09 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
No doubt people are getting better at defending. Almost everyone trains jiu-jitsu anymore. It's not like people don't know what the RNC is these days.

While I can only speak for myself, I have seen a difference between grappling with gloves and without. Don't know if you guys have noticed that or not. Enlarging the size of your hands makes it a lot more difficult to fight for the position from which to choke (fighting his hands, etc).

Without gloves, I've not found it all that difficult to sink the choke once I have gotten the back. IMO, getting the back is the hardest part.

Once there however, if you've gotten the correct arm placement (harness position) and/or the underhook, it's pretty easy to defeat one hand thats defending the choke. From that point, latching onto the shoulder with the opposite arm is fairly easy. Once thats in place, locking in the choke is not that difficult, in my opinion. Again, getting the back itself seems like the hardest part (against a good grappler).

I just know that when I have gloves on, the difficulty of getting those positions is notched up quite a bit. That's just been my experience.

How many of you here train with gloves on? Just curious.

-John

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#377232 - 01/06/08 06:10 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: JKogas]
shills11 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Glasgow Scotland
one way we've been taught the RNC is to tie up one of your opponents arms with your hooks and lock it in, ive only seen a couple of pros do this (BJ Penn) to name one so there must be disadvantages to it also.
_________________________
Its not about how hard you hit, its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward

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#377233 - 01/06/08 06:27 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: shills11]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Yeah I've been shown that tactic. It definitely can work if you have flexible legs and you set it up well. However, the transition from having two hooks round the body to wrapping one leg round an arm can be dangerous. It is easy to push the guy too low where he can escape, or give him space to turn into your guard. I've only ever tried it in a gi, but I expect it is quite a lot harder to do without a gi.

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#377234 - 01/06/08 07:29 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Hooking an arm with a leg works much better when your opponent is wearing a gi or clothes (as opposed to mere fight shorts). Guys will quickly slip out of that. I personally am leaning more toward the body triangle these days and then fighting for arm position. It can a battle, but what isn't.

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#377235 - 01/06/08 07:43 PM Re: rear naked nothing? [Re: shills11]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

one way we've been taught the RNC is to tie up one of your opponents arms with your hooks and lock it in, ive only seen a couple of pros do this (BJ Penn) to name one so there must be disadvantages to it also.




I have successfully used that one in class. Works good if your flexible, or the guy is a bit shorter than you.

I don't use gloves in my BJJ class, and do not dispute that wearing them would make it harder. I do know that many more people are aware of defeating the hooks to spin out of the choke - that is my primary strategy.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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