There are people in this world, who says that JKD is not a martial art at all, it is just a modification of wing chun or some good thought on a martial way and You shouldn't mention JKD at all.

This is opinion of my wing chun instructor and of all members of certain wing chun association and I heard the same thing from wing chun grand master W.Cheung.

How You would answer to such opinion? Have You ever heard of such a thing?

JKD is a name. It's an almost worn-out name. The most important thing is to train according to its major tenets and concepts, and not worry about politics.

At its core, JKD is about aliveness, simplicity and adaptability in training & fighting. If you're adhering to those concepts, you're training in the spirit of JKD. WHEN you do that, you never stop to think about "JKD" as a style, system, name, or anything else -- you just train, which is the whole idea.

Forget about names. Just train. Train smart, athletically, with progressive resistance, variable intensity and after all of that, TEST yourself by fighting (not street fighting) within your school(s), against your partners, in competition with other schools and above all, against people who are intelligent and have their egos under control. Outside of those things, nothing else matters. When you're approaching things this way, you are adhering to the JKD concept.


-John

I know what You are talking about. You know, I just want to find a way how to introduce my JKD experience to others in my wing chun classes. But my instructor when I just mention something about JKD says, JKD is nothing,JKD is not a way, Wing Chun is the best... What do You think, if one is studying wing chun and nothing else in his whole life, can he return to that primordial freedom o his?? Or this will lead him to one end -

I personally don't believe that ANY style is "the best". Either all styles are limited or, there are no such things as styles.

And I particularly don't have much of a positive opinion about wing chun. Of course thats true about majority of traditional martial arts -- even "JKD" for a large part (many have turned it into just another traditional martial art).

Just my opinions. Form your own and don't take anyone's word for anything. Pressure test everything.


-John

OK, I am calm again

Thank You

Some more stuff....

It can be said that JKD is really just a way of thinking about things. It's philosophy that governs your training. Some schools adhere to the Jun Fan (wing chun offshoot) and others don't. Some use more of a boxing, muay Thai approach (as I do). I don't do trapping. Instead I work Greco-Roman wrestling. In other words, it doesn't matter "what" you do, so long as you actually do it and try to apply it against a resisting partner/opponent. Its through that where you discover your "truth in combat", which is an individual process. No instructor, teacher or coach ANYWHERE can give you your own individual expression. That comes from what YOU learn and experience over time. Your experience is your OWN ultimate instructor.


-John

Well if your instructor feels that Wing Chun is the best and it honestly works for him then well, whos to argue with his interpretation and experience with the art.

But don't let someone else tell you what is best for you or what not. Only you can figure that out yourself, so if you don't hold Wing Chun in the same light as your instructor does then thats fine. Its your take on the art and yours alone, no one can govern that.

Though I would say his comment about JKD being not a way, would be wrong....it is a way, a way of thinking

I've been to karate classes, boxing classes, classical jkd classes and BJJ classes, and every instructor has told me the same thing. I've learned enough now to have my eyes opened to the fact that all martial arts work, it just picking the right techniques for the situation. If anything i feel a bit sorry for them as they'll probably never know how ignorant they are.

It is your instructors class. Wanting to add your own JKD experiences to the class seems a bit presumtious. If your teaching that is something different. Presumably if you are experienced enough to teach then you'll know what to teach and when.

Wing Chun is the foundation of much of what Bruce Lee taught. This influences many poeple's opinion on it.

WC_Lun makes a good point. While you are training in someone's school, I think it goes without saying to respect their opinions and philosophy if you willingly choose to remain a student there. I mean, we are all free to go elsewhere, if we don't agree with the instructors points of view.


-John

Everything what You all mentioned here is very helpful to me, Thank You once again.

Just....one more thing and that's it .

I think freedom for one's opinion during the classes is important. Why somebody, instructor for example, should bother himself by hiding some of facts or tries to stay as far as possible from them?

I guess wing chun guys wants to tell that Lee was great only because he studied it, it's like everything he achieved was due to wing chun... And that's why they ignore phenomenon of JKD.

OK, no more cries...

Wing Chun is a great system in it's own right, but the reason for Lee's exploration of other arts was because through his experimentation he found WC had some weakness, lacked fluidity and was trapped in it's own classical mess.

It was also thought by the top WC exponents that Bruce Lee was a beginner (comparable to a Shodan level) practictioner of Wing Chun, a simple art that he had only basic understanding of. Which shows with a solid basic foundation what can be accomplished using an open mind to training.

But as the others stated build your foundation in WC/any art 1st, then seek your path to the truth. JKD would be a eye opening experinces after training in WC pluses & minues.

No system is the catch all best system for all r any situation. Now a person can train his system to be used and respond to almost any real changes in his environment. imo.

even if it is juast a modifacation of wing chun its still a martial art...

But its not a modification of WC, some JKD has very little Wc left in it, Juna-Fa Gung-fu was a mod of WC back in the 60s but alot of modern JKD could hardly be called a mod of Wing Chun.

It is a MA way of thinking, we agree there.

To me JKD is no more Wing Chun than it is Karate, Muay Thai or Greco Roman. Its simply a process. More importantly than the ideas it presents in a martial aspect are the philosophies it gives us for life. Simplicity, daily decrease, control of one's ego, thoughts and actions. The ability to look outside the box, and to go against the grain. JKD can be applied to ANY art. JKD is nothing more than taking the ideas and APPLYING them to life.

nice to see you back around here chen zen.

Thank you student. Ive been off and on a few times. Im getting reay to have a son, and ive just moved to a new town with a new job so I havent been on much but thats going to change soon an Ill be back like I used to be.

sounds like you have a full plate, good luck with it all bud! and congrats with the son!

Thanks. Ive got alot going on but Im looking forward to it. Hopefully Ill get a break soon and Ill have a chance to fill everyone in on whats been going on lately.

The problem with comparing JKD and WC or even comparing WC to WC is that far to many come from a background of my teacher is or was the greatest and if he doesn't teach it or doesn't think much of something than it must not be worth knowing.

Most WC sucks because the people that are teaching it are dogmatic and don't understand the system at all. Yip Man dealt with these people by saying to them " yes you are right" and then walking away leaving them to think they knew what they were doing. Years later the gullible fall for I was Yip Mans closed door student , yips favorite , the best fighter etc and fail to use their head. They then end up with a shadow of what wing chun is.
JKD is a mish mash. Absorb what is useful sounds good but how can you do that unless you have learned all a system has to offer. Who decides you have picked the best parts of WC or savate or kali or BJJ?
WC is concept based. There are no absolutes. No one way. If a move saves your teeth it is correct. If you knock out the opponent it is correct. Some dogmatic types say things like wing chun has no hook. Garbage, wing chun has all sorts of circular concepts including hooks. It doesn't matter what Leung Ting, William Cheung or anyone else claims. Use your head ask if something makes sense. When you spar and you find your bong sau doesn't work don't just say oh well wing chun doesn't work against a boxer or some such. Adapt the concept to the situation.

End Of rant

You know what I think? At the end of the day, all we have are a collection of tools. Who is better at those tools will prove to come out ahead of someone else who is NOT as good with the tools....and what EVER name you choose to call your "tool-set" is irrelevant; go beat someone if you have a need to prove the validity your "system".


-John

Yep, its not the art but the artist. Better still, its the guy who gets his techniques in during those split seconds. Who is better at that moment, even who gets lucky. If you have only a ground game and fight a boxer, you might win, but come back the same time tommorow and you may get your own behind served to you.

Jude, if you don’t mind my sharing my thoughts here…

There are really only a few basic punches in boxing, thus it’s a pretty simple art. In fact, I can’t think of one that might be more simple. Definitely all of the punches from boxing are used by myself and many, many other JKD practitioners as there is no need to “leave any out”.

JKD isn’t a style so much as it is a method of training. It’s a process and not a product.

Basically the idea is to become the most well-rounded fighter possible, where the objective is to be able to flow (fight) between the ranges that fighting can morph into. We have diagnosed those ranges as the free-movement range (or “stand-up), the clinch and the ground.

What we have noticed is that certain arts tend to show up better during fighting/sparring than have others. Some of those that do show up better are western boxing, muay Thai, savate, judo, Greco-Roman & freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, etc. All of these arts have something major in common; aliveness.

The wing chun that I have experienced, does not often have this quality. In NO cases that I have directly experienced, was the quality of aliveness present in training.

Wing chun has typically been one of those that HAS not shown to manifest itself well in this regard. Doesn’t mean that it can’t. It just hasn’t. There are solid reasons for why that is, though this doesn’t mean that such a practice isn’t or can’t be beneficial.

To be fair, I have successfully used chain punching and very crude trapping during the sparring process. However this doesn’t nearly look like the wing chun that I have seen as classically taught. One reason is because what we do comes out of a boxing base. Fundamentally it is different than much of the wing chun that I have seen.

This has just been MY experience and is merely my own opinion. I’m quite sure that others have experiences which differ from what I’ve encountered.

Thanks

-John

Hi John

Everything you wrote made sense to me.
I still have a lot more research to do.
Early days yet.

Thanks

Jude

Hi

Would there be a chance of clarifying what you meant on the other thread?
With regards to boxing defence?



Jude

*sigh* I AM OBSESSED WITH MARTIAL ARTS! i don't do it...yet. but i study it's concepts and purpose alot. u don't think of JKD as a style, u think of it as an understanding. using different strategies in a simple way, is what JKD is about- i think. JKD IS a way of thinking, it is actually removing the view that martial arts is perfect, and is making it better.

You can't study martial arts without practicing martial arts.

Yeah, there is absolutely no way you can understand the applications of a movement until you apply it.

no. i don't apply it. studying as in researching.

then JKD sounds right for me. i'm trying to learn more about it's purpose.

I would suggest, if you at all can, that you go and try a class. I know people who have gotten so far into researching martial arts, that they haven't even started training because they are so confused as to where to begin.

--Chris

lol, yeah. hard to find place over here though, JKD comes from US, and i'm in Australia.

Find something you CAN go to and stick with it.

if i can't find a good JKD school in area, i look for Wing Chun school.

There's a massive difference between jkd and wing chun nowadays. If you're looking for a jkd class and can't find one, then a wing chun class will take you down an entirely different route.
It's not really what art you attend, as long as the students are punching and kicking each other, as well as groundfighting, then you can't really go wrong. Wing chun won't teach you how to fight on the ground.

that's the only sucky bit?

Well I could comment further, but I'm not going to, its not my place.

i've been given the impression that Wing Chun isn't as flexible as JKD. is this assumption correct in your opinions?

"Wing chun won't teach you how to fight on the ground"

It can.

Really? You learn something new everyday.

One thing Bruce Lee did was alter the fighting stance of wing chun to make it more manouverable like a boxer's. I think in the wing chun chance, the weight is kept to the rear foot. In the Bai Jong, its more like 50-50.
Jkd nowadays should look like the training they do for MMA. If you remember the earlier days of the UFC/pride, the fighters usually had the experience of one martial art. A striker was useless on the ground and a grappler got his head boxed off if he stood up for too long. Over the years, people began to notice which fighters from which arts were consistently winning, and dedided to train in these styles, hence the term MMAist.
Bruce Lee realised this in the late 60's, and it was for this reason he began developing jkd.
I'm also well aware that cage fighting is not the same as real life fighting, but its the closest we're gonna get.

Wing chun was developed by one woman (I think), and I would rather fight in a style that has been developed through years of trial and error, than fight in a style because somebody says this is how you do it. Before MMA competitions, everybody thought their style was the best way to fight. No offence to wing chunners, since your style cannot be tested in this way because you punch at targets like the throat and poke your finger in the eyes, so we'll never know.

Okay, a quick example.
Yiu Ma = waist energy. The ability to put your waist into a strike, throw, push etc.
In chi sao applications, you use Yiu Ma for lap sao, turning, Biu Ma - more or less everything and in varying degrees. This allows you to put your entire core (that lovely region of the body that connects the upper and lower halves) in an efficient manner into your technique.
In WC training, we generally do this rooted on our feet. So, take the feet out of the equation. IE, I'm on the receiving end of the mount and I want to roll it over. What do I use to do that? What does BJJ training dictate is the most important muscle group to develop? The CORE!
Yiu Ma = applicable on the ground.
When you get right down to it, most arts aren't all that different. They're either hard styles (karate, MT) or soft styles (BJJ, WC). The stance in WC comes from it's being solely a self defense art. It makes sense if you think about it - nobody is walking around 'ready to go' all the time so a more upright, economic training stance is logical.
Other than that though, it's all applicable in any range if your understanding is there.
I use my WC when I'm on the ground. I say this from experience, not blowing smoke. I don't care how much Bruce Almighty anyone evokes to argue that.

well i'm feeling like the dumbest [censored] on earth, maybe i should come back AFTER i start learning JKD or WC.

Okay, first of all. Every single martial art that I know of advocates the use of the core in movement. If not then you will be moving inefficiently. When I joined the BJJ class, my standup training did transfer over a little because I could use my core and also because I have better proprioception than most lay people. But I wasn't able to win against the better grapplers.
When someone has the mount and you wan't to turn him so that you're in his guard, then yes you can use the idea of the core to turn, but you will NEVER really learn to fight on the ground until you are rolling regularly. If you have only the idea of core movement, and are groundfighting against a BJJ fighter, then it is likely he will win, just like he would probably lose standing up even though he also knows how to move from the core. You need to train standup, clinch and ground if you wan't to be able to fight in all three places. This has been demonstrated so many times. There is so much more to groundfighting the using the core - yet I agree it is an essential element - but you're only fooling yourself if you believe that you punching training will teach you how to defend against an arm bar.

Yeah, I was talking about fundamentals. But if it's a fundamental that you learned through WC, than it's WC to you. Or if you learned it in JKD, it's JKD and on and on.
Knowaddamean?

........umm yes?

Yes but my initial point was because he was going to go to a wc class if he couldn't find a jkd one. Since "the master" thinks that jkd sounds right for him, if he was to go to a wc class, he would be getting something completely different.
I'm still adamant that training striking will not make you a good groundfighter, just like playing football won't make you great at swimming. I do understand your point though because even on my first few bjj lessons, I was able to beat the white belts consistently. I did have six years of MA experience beforehand though and had been run through a few things. I very quickly realised however, that I had been missing out on a vital part of fighting.
The only significant difference was that due to my standup training, I improved much quicker than the beginners, but I genuinely could not grapple to a satisfactory level until I fought on the ground regularily

Can't say that WC will teach you groundfighting but the knowledge you gain from standup benefits you greatly on the ground. Many southern Chinese MA focus on punching (Wing Chun for example) and if you are on either end of the guard/mount you would be more able to defend yourself against strikes (or on the flip side, start sending bombs). Also any involvement with arm, hand and core strength you already have from all the striking you do.

I say this because thats how I felt whenever I rolled with anybody. I could control their arms and pin them down a lot easier from the misc. trapping techniques and simple movements to gain passage when I delt with striking. I learned to pass people's arms and position them faster because you already learn a bit of that on your feet.

I believe that JKD gives you a wider idea of what the ranges are in fighting. It has Wing Chun idea of multiple quick efficent strikes at mid to trapping range and uses them more mobile or anyway they can it also has the Savate/Thai/western Boxing/Kali/Silat influence along with various forms of ground fighting to include BJJ/Judo like ne waza.

Wing Chun is a good traditional standup fighting system but lacks the fluidity and flexibility of the eceltic JKD idea. WC lacks the long range, mid range and ground fighting combination of a good JKD program.

well I don't treat JKD as a "style" it just helps and guides me on what kind of decisions to make in terms of my training, which includes the multiple ranges that you mentioned.

Personally most of the experience I've had comes from Southern Praying Mantis and informal Muay Thai, though I've picked up many things here n there that I find useful. To me, the close range workings of Southern Mantis (similar to WC) helps me a lot when dealing with a guy on the ground (after I establish position) because of you're both very close and are essentially in trapping range.

you can say that WC lacks a multitude of ranges but many MA out there do as well. Its just because people from different areas encounter different things and design a fighting system around what they see and know. Just natural.

True. I've seen JKD guys who ran completely against what I believe the essence of JKD to be. The name has been tossed around like garbage and quite honestly, that's to be expected given that half of the people who practice it probably don't even know what it is.

yep...the title of this thread is a fine example of that..

I agree completely

Notice in my last post I referred to JKD as a IDEA. Wing Chun is a style and we are comparing these two fighting methods.

All version of have fighting have gyms that don't produce realistic fighting skills but this is true whether its TKD, JKD, WC or Wu Shu.

But I thought we were comparing functional realistic in method kuens.

I dunno..to me JKD is pretty simple and doesnt really teach me fighting method. It just teaches me to be open to all MA, any technique, as long as it works for me so that I'm not closed and blinded (ex. realizing the need for striking AND grappling). Everything else, at least for me, came from just training techniques that say WC would offer. I learn some fighting methods of WC and then some from MT and then some from Mantis and find a way for things to work and *BAM thats my fighting method. JKD did not give me a fighting method, just helped me make my own

thats why I'm not seeing a comparison here....unless your talking about Jun Fan Gungfu.....

so JKD is about being open and flexible etc compared to other 'styles' that just say, do what we teach u?

thats the main message that I get...if you're talking about stances and straight leads, those things just fall under technicalities along with things like WC's blasting and trapping or a triangle choke. JKD just guides me in my process to move and fight the way I would like to. I know theres certain "rules" that Bruce Lee wrote down in his Tao of JKD, but honestly to me thats his intrepretation and not mine. I don't think of JKD like a religion with 10 commandments that you must follow, otherwise it'll be a bit hypocritical in my mind. I'll carve my own path

JKD is: Use no way as way. there are no boundaries, or restrictions. which is why, JKD RULES!

haha I'm glad to see your enthusiasm for the philosophy

what?! that's all JKD is?! PHILOSOPHY?! stuff it then, lol. j/k

Here's some recommended reading for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do

Of course its just basic ideas, but its a good start.

i already read that, that's where i got the philosophy from, i like the water part.

I think you'll find the water part in Tao Te Ching too.

FOR ALL THOSE THAT LEARN MA, FOCUS NOT ON JUST THE PRACTICAL APPLICATION, LEARN THE MORALS AND PHILOSOPHY IT TEACHES.

One of those philosophies is to empty your cup!