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#377016 - 01/10/08 11:05 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Amazing to me the resistance coming to common sense ideas like "don't pollute" and "save energy", etc. I'm pretty sure that Los Angelos', Las Vegas', the Mid West's smog problems are not anything natural.

To think that human endeavour is not affecting the environment seems preposterously short-sighted.
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#377017 - 01/10/08 11:12 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: MattJ]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I am not doubting that we are having an effect in regards natural resources, the ecosystem, and that spect of things, and I am certainly not against being mindfull of playing a part in helping that- i recycle, I switch off lights (in fact, part of my job is to switch off lights in departments on night shift to bring energy expenditure down), and I have chosen not to breed, so I am not responsible for any other little polluters plopping into the world.
Thats all good, but there is real disagreement in scientific circles regarding our role in the specifics of global warming. Thats just the way it is.
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#377018 - 01/10/08 11:39 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
mine was in the form of a question.

anyway, I don't think in terms of global warming so much as just polution control. I can't 'sense' the average surface temperature of the whole earth, but I know something's wrong if pilots have a hard time seeing the runway near a city on a clear sunny day. or people walk around with smog masks.


shanghai
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/_attachments_shang_kenneth_pollution1009.jpg

LA
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oceanography-book/Images/LA-smog-2.jpg

mexico city
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/687806.jp...84831B75F48EF45


etc...literally (but varying of course) every city in the world.



I'd be more worried about our local pollution than global warming. that way too, the anti-global-warmers get the sense of victory and go away.

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#377019 - 01/10/08 01:05 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
the government declared today the go ahead for a new generation of nuclear power stations has been approved. we can one day tell the russians and saudis etc go take a hike with their gas and oil. and its carbon neautral, ok there is the issue of the waste but one way or the other power generation has sie effects but at least we're in control of our power and not at the mercy of others.
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#377020 - 01/10/08 01:40 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
I believe that you are taking the correct approach by focusing on real pollution and not on the neo-political redistribution that defines every "solution" the Branch AlGorevidians offer. We've piddled away billions on science that is at best very weak. Imagine where we'd be if we had spent that money on alternative energy, fusion research, pollution abatement, so forth and so on. By all means, take every step you can to reduce how you inefficiently use resources. If everybody does this, and it turns out that I am incorrect, then we will have still done the single greatest thing to ameliorate anthropogenic forcing.

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#377021 - 01/10/08 02:02 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: grumbleweed]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
The expansion of nuclear power was inevitable, and desirable in todayís energy climate. And the waste issue isnít what it once was. From current vitrification (high firing it with a boron glass), to polymer in capsulation, the hazardous radiation is significantly contained for millenniums. Additionally, because the products of fission are themselves, rather energetic, there is a new focus on how to apply them to beneficial use. This includes my research which uses high energy Beta emitters (from reactor waste) in special types of ceramics (called Beta mirrors), to cleave water for the production of hydrogen fuels. Water is the single most abundant source of hydrogen but, unfortunately, it takes more energy to get hydrogen from it than is returned in itís use as a fuel. So all of the hydrogen we get now comes from oil. By using the energy found in reactor waste we put said waste to productive use, end up with a positive energy balance, and move away from petroleum dependency.

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#377022 - 01/10/08 03:59 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: floatfishski]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
This thread reminds me of the big push by environmentalist and the "green" theories. They had everybody scared about using phosphates and that we were killing the environment and we need to go to non-phosphated products. That we needed to use more materials that were biodegradable and we need to change the way were doing things. This had some merit but blown out of proportion and many industries took advantage of this and made a killing.

Phosphates are mined from the environment;from the ground, and are returned to the ground. We cannot live without phosphates nor can the environment. However in slow moving areas of water the plant sources would feed on the extra phosphates and thus taking over that environment and in some cases could kill off fish and such due to the lack of oxygen and sunlight.

In the chemicals industrial, and I can speak as a reliable source being in this industry 20 years come March 1st, 2008, there was a big push to jump on board and the replacement for phosphate products was NTA. Surprisingly years later through follow up testing they found that products containing NTA were also carrying with it down the sewer lines the minerals from the metals thus creating far greater hazards then phosphates ever did. Phosphates were accumulative over years and in a short time adverse affects of NTA were very apparent.

Then we get in to "biodegradable" when in fact all soaps are biodegradable and most things are with some taking slightly longer then others; not including solids such as metal an such of course and why there are recycling of these materials. Many companies would tote their products as being biodegradable or environmentally friendly as a marketing ploy and I took it as my responsibility to make sure people were educated and informed and did not buy into all of this hype.

That is the same with this thread. Too many people are not totally educated and what information out there is being exploited and blown out of proportion. In order to make things better people must understand what is going on and not buy into all that they hear which gets regurgitated by the media and the people around them. We are responsible for what happens to this earth for what we have control over should we not also take the responsibility to understand it as well so we can make the necessary changes? Responsibility does not mean you turn into a sheep.
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#377023 - 01/10/08 04:51 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Dereck]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

This thread reminds me of the big push by environmentalist and the "green" theories




I thought I saw a thread on how politics were not to be discussed on this forum, I wonder why this thread is not locked as it has clearly become political.

The strawman argument is one where you discredit the source, not the issues. Byand large those who do not like the idea of Global warming, go after the models, the estimates i.e. the guesses as to what the results will be.

What they chose not to address is what is not seriously debated, (1) there is warming, (2) it's faster then it should be (3) 75% of the increase can be attibuted to human activity (4) if we do nothing, many many preventable bad things could and most likely will happen.

These findings are virtually unopposed by any reputable scientific body.

In the face of all that, if you want to chose that it's all some leftist conspiracy to gouge the American taxpayer out of a few bucks, thats your business. If you prefer the opinion of one Ph.D. student over thousands of scientist and multiple think tanks, OK then you are no sheep.

But all that aside, is there anyone here who does not think that the next step is to get in balance with our environment? Does anyone hold the postion of "why bother, it doesn't matter what we do anyway"?

Because if thats the case, arguing over the models or anything else seems mute to me.
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#377024 - 01/10/08 05:27 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I think I can speak for everybody that we are all in agreement as individuals we all need to do something to make the world a better place and I think for a lot we are on the right track. However the problem is those that embellish and blow things out of proportion for personal endeavors or to raise attention to their group whether it is politically driven or not as ultimately extra funding goes to those projects whether legit or not and somebody is always making out like a bandit. That is the injustice because crap that spills out gets regurgitated and soon too many people take it as the truth without questioning it or afraid to question it. Where would we be if we didn't question everything; still thinking the world was flat and letting the church dictate how we are to think.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#377025 - 01/10/08 06:13 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: floatfishski]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
floatfishski,
when I was doing mechanical design engineering, one of the projects I worked on was a nuclear fuel reprocessing facility. The "theory" was that we could spike nuclear waste with an isotope and make it "too hot" to make a bomb, and then "de-spike" it and use it as nuclear fuel.

The theory was sound... the practical side broke down when the spiked material hit a surface temperature that melted through even the ceramic "holders" and we had a "meltdown". I'm sure there's a hole to the center of the earth where it happened, but I can relate to your research and how complicated it can get. The amounts of waste used in the research were miniscule, but the results were explosive... so it doesn't take much to do a lot in the thermonuclear business... and if your research can "fix" our oil dependence, we probably have enough material to be energy sufficient forever... but I'm sure we still have the naysayers who think "all nuclear is bad"... Oooooohhh! ...and I'd bet they're the same ones that are promoting the global warming scam on people.

Dereck made a good point about the phospates issue, and people unfamiliar with science or chemistry really don't understand that we're only a few atoms away from being energy sufficient into any forseeable future, and totally independent of oil or sulphur-laden fuels creating the deadly CO2 that chicken little is so afraid of.

To Kimo...

Kimo said:
Quote:

What they chose not to address is what is not seriously debated, (1) there is warming, (2) it's faster then it should be (3) 75% of the increase can be attibuted to human activity (4) if we do nothing, many many preventable bad things could and most likely will happen.





First of all, climatologists all over the world have disputed that "there is warming". (1) The trends in climatology don't indicate that at all, and isn't something that they can measure in one or two years, but is measured in hundreds and thousands of years for trending.
(2)"it's faster then it should be"... and "how fast should it be"? The statistics cited by Gore and the pundits of Global Warming are off by factors of 100, so the climatilogical rates of cooling and warming would be off by exponentially large numbers when fed into "rate of change" models. Usually, in engineering, when we hit such staggering numbers, we check them... but obviously, they fit the "chicken little" model that they want to popularize, so they run with those numbers.
(3) There is no empirical data that actually shows climatilogical change that has been effected by man's living on the earth, other than some local pollution numbers of fixed bodies of water... and those are not "climate change" effects, but baseline "life support" numbers, and localized to the area polluted.
(4)" if we do nothing, many many preventable bad things could and most likely will happen." This, in a nutshell, IS the "chicken little" theory... no specifics, no attributable cause and effect, just general alarm that the sky is falling and we're responsible.

I worked in the pollution control business, and there IS pollution out there... it's fixable, and in great measure is fixed by the industries that are polluters. Those that don't, are fined, and for the most part, shut down... at least in the United States.

Quote:

These findings are virtually unopposed by any reputable scientific body.


They are opposed by a large segment of the scientific community, and if by "reputable scientific body" you mean "real scientists", you're dead wrong... for you don't seem to be able to separate your "climate change" from "pollution" arguments, and pollution is a localized problem... not a "worldwide" panacea. True, it's a big problem, but it shows up and gets fixed, at least in this country.

Quote:

I thought I saw a thread on how politics were not to be discussed on this forum, I wonder why this thread is not locked as it has clearly become political.




It's only political if you want to make it a political issue. That statement is usually made when you start losing the argument because your facts don't muster up... and this has been one of the more civil discussions as of late. Floatfishski gave you some resources to read:
Quote:

I can go on and on about these sorts of things but would suggest that you read the works Dr. Sally Baliunas (Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and Director of the Mount Wilson Observatory), Dr. Patrick Michaels (Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science, University of Virginia), Dr. Jen Oxalson (NCAR), just to point out a few.


, but I would suppose that reading that would be contrary to your actual predisposed position, so I don't expect any results there.

You can't "strike a match and affect the climate", any more than you can filter water and make it "unpolluted". The causes and effects are more complicated than that... and the effects of change, especially in climatilogical arenas, would take eons to show up in the models.

The global warming wonks took the easy way... fudge the numbers and shout that the sky is falling. You almost have to want it to be true to believe it... and that's what they're banking on... and banking is the right word...

Wanna buy my carbon credits?"

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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