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#376956 - 01/06/08 12:58 AM The Global Warming thread...
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I saw a couple of comments in another thread that had taken off on global warming, and wanted to chime in on it.

I worked for about 15 years doing pollution abatement engineering design, and my opinion is that most of it is based on "junk science"... just like a lot of the pollution information. It depends on who's "stating the facts" as to what the facts actually mean, and turning the phrases to give errant impressions seem to be the method of selling this scam to the public.

When I was doing pollution engineering, we often had "measurable quantities" of pollution that we had to deal with... plant run-off, stack discharges, etc. and when the discussions were made public, it was interesting to see how little the public actually knew about the scale of life on this planet.

For instance, the county government in one state where we did a job gave a "pollution control" award to a local group who waded into the river and picked up paper and cans... they might have picked up a half ton of garbage all together. In the same breath, they issued fines against one of the companies we did work for, who had spent several million dollars to install precipitators that removed over 200 tons of air pollution (above and beyond the regulatory limits) and were threatening to shut them down for "damaging the environment". Now the plant had operated there for years, and was one of the cleanest for several states around... and doing a magnificent job of eliminating almost all of their pollutants out of the air and river.

I installed one job in Tennessee that completely changed the air quality readings of a paper mill to below the allowable limits, and installed an "inert-gas discharge unit" which converted poisonous gases into inert gases or inert elements by running them through a furnace and a set of coolers that dropped out the solids and discharged cool gases and water back to the environment. The scale of difference is like that of a paper airplane compared to a 747, when you look at the volumes of change created... but the tree-huggers were still protesting the mill at every opportunity.

Now, having done "air quality maps" and the like for EPA documents, the "information" that is being put out about global warming is a lot like Chicken Little and his "sky is falling" warning. Some of the recovery boilers at the paper mills where I worked were 260 feet tall, and put off billions of btu's (heat units) into the atmosphere. Standing 15 feet from the building, you could freeze to death, so the "environmental impact" of "heating" the atmosphere was clearly negligible... so which plants are causing global warming? Next to smelters in steel mills, these were some of the largest furnaces on earth... and the impact of their discharges was very closely controlled.

Environmentalists always think that "companies are evil"... but companies are made up of people whose children live and play in the same area as the plant, and drink the water from the same water sources... so they aren't unaware of how well the plants take care of their environmental responsibilities. It's just easier to "cry wolf" than to actually analyze the information intelligently and then plot a course of action if there's a problem... and I say "if" with emphasis. More times than not, the companies are doing what they should be doing... complying with the laws, and spending millions of dollars to abate the environmental impact of their plant discharges and effluents.

I built a lot of the water treatment plants when I worked in the oil business in Louisiana, and I would rather drink what we put into the river than what came out of the tap... our standards were not only higher, but the discharges were cleaner.

What we're dealing with here, is a big-government scam. The idea of "carbon credits" where each country is issued X-number of credits that can be traded and sold to "meet their pollution emissions standards" is nothing more than a shell game to make money. It has nothing to do with the actual changes in the atmospheric conditions of climate change, and most reputable scientists have already said so.

"Global warming" has become the mantra of the leftists all over the world (most of whom are the worst violators of any kinds of emission standards anyway), but their "trick" is to do exactly what they are accusing you of doing, only making sure that the press coverage is all going their way.

One of the highlights of my work in environmental engineering, was an "air quality hearing" I went to in Asheville, North Carolina where the EPA reps were all blasting the "solids count" of local air readings. It was quite heated until one of the engineers said "gentlemen, the only way that these readings will meet your standards is if you cut down the entire national forest, because most of the solids count in your monitors are pollen from the trees in the national forest".

Environmentalism, when practiced with some sense, is very productive... and most companies are responsible to clean up their own mess. Where it goes wrong, is in the level of understanding of how a lot of waste can be handled safely without having to create another earth. Sometimes, cleaning up an effluent discharge is as simple as planting a particular grass where it flows, or paving over the contaminated soil so it doesn't go into the groundwater. All chemicals have a "shelf life" and unless they contain heavy metals, like lead, they will break down of their own accord over time. Paving over them keeps them from leaching into the ground water or running off into the streams... but try telling that to an "environmentalist".

"Mother Nature" has a lot of ability to correct her own problems, and like the idiots who want to preserve every species of animal... the evolutionary chain of history doesn't support that kind of thinking. Species come and go all the time... and stopping the world to protect the snail darter isn't going to cause havoc on the earth... it will simply rearrange some portion of the food chain.

My beliefs on this are simple... it's a scam, and the science that it's supposedly based on is Having worked for about 15 years dealing with the environment and EPA regulations lets me know a little more than average about how "environmental matters" are actually handled... and it sure isn't in any way , shape, or form the way it's reported on the news.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376957 - 01/06/08 02:00 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
clmibb Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
Loc: South Texas, US
Ya know wrist, last semester in college I read an article that basically said that at the rate that the earth is warming up, man couldn't do even if we tried. The earth "breathes", if you will. Oxygen levels rise and fall over the centuriess. Oxygen acts like an air conditioner for the earth; the more oxygen, the cooler the air, more CO2, warmer the earth. Simple enough, right? Let's go WAAAAAY back to the dinosaurs (or some of y'alls childhood which ever is longer. LOL). The earth was warmer. We know this because of the size of the plant fossils that have been found in northern climates (bigger plants live in warmer climates. Stay with me people.) Cold-blooded animals were HUGE! Now we all know SOMETHING happened to them to cause extinction. The earth cooled and there was an ice age. Plants die off and CO2 levels rise causing the earth to warm up (yet again). The earth warming up allows longer growing seasons and allows plants to grow bigger (thus producing more oxygen). See a pattern? The earth is simply doing what it's been doing for the past 4.5 billion years, breathing. Nothing more, nothing less. If you look at paintings done during the Revolutionary War (especially the one of Washington crossing the Deleware River, it was during a mini-ice age) you'll notice large ice chunks floating in the river. That doesn't happen these days. I just doesn't get cold enough any more. It's not because our pollution caused the earth to warm; afterall, it was warm before the mini-ice age happened which indirectly "caused" the earth to cool. In another 5,000 years (mark my words) we'll probably see another ice age. We are simply in the earth's natural warming trend. It'll cool again, no need to panic.

Casey
_________________________
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."- Ronald Reagan


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#376958 - 01/06/08 02:21 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Of course we should do all that we feasibly can to protect and preserve the environment. But I also believe that the "global warming threat" is a politically motivated scam.

It's not about the environment - it's about control.

It's about politicians and power junkies like Al Gore flying around in a jet tellinge everyone else they should ride a bike or take a bus in order to protect the environment. They just don't want others to have what they want.

We just witnessed a global warming conference in Bali where a large number of elitists gathered in an exotic resort at the expense of others. The amount of pollution from the feul they burned was equal to 20,000 cars over a lifetime. This does not sound like a group of people who believe in what they are selling? These people have all sorts of technology available to share information with video and teleconference. They did not have to take private jets to a resort that is in a location where none of them lived.

Take a look at the Kyoto treaty. It seems they think only American pollution causes global warming. China (the worlds biggest polluter) is exempt. As is India, which is rapidly becoming the world's 2nd biggest polluter.

With thier acceptance of Kyoto, Germany moved thier biggest coal powered electric plant to Poland. They never cut thier use of electricity or thier burning of coal - they did claim they reduced thier emissions. So apparently buring coal in Germany to generate power causes global warming but burning the same coal in Poland does not. This is just ridiculous.

The climate is changing. That is evident. What is also eveident is that is always has. Didn't anyone ever hear of the Ice Age? What to people think happened to the glaciers that rolled across North America? Then there was another "mini ice age" in the 1400's.
Here in the U.S. there was a period known as "the dust bowl days" in the 1930's. Then by the 1970's scientists were predicting another ice age if we didn't do something about pollution. By the 1990's they forgot all about the coming of the new ice age and were into scaring people about global warming.
I was just reading where a group of Russian scientists are saying that we are seeing the end of the latest warming trend and that by 2050 we'll be wishing we were as warm as we are now because the freezing cold will be killing people all over the planet.

Scaremongers have been predicting the end of the world from climate disaster for well over 100 years and they have always been wrong.

Look what happened after Katrina. We were told that it was global warming that created that big storm and that was the beginning of the end. From then on Categroy 5 Hurricanes were going to be the norm and we would have to change the scale to measure bigger storms. Then the next 2 hurricane seasons were mostly a big fizzle.

Global wanrming is just a big lie told by the leftist enemies of freedom. Sadly, even "conservatives" on the "right" now think they need to get the religion of gloabl warming in order to get re-elected. It took a long time, but our enemies finally found a way to bring us down and it looks like they are going to pull it off this time.

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#376959 - 01/06/08 04:42 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
What we call 'global warming' is a cyclical phenomena outside of our control. It is the exact same climate development that was a precursor to the Ice age, and as far as I know, that had sweet diddly to do with mans 'carbon footprint'.
There is no doubt that we have upset the balance of nature with our dominance of the planet- 6 billion+ all wanting their share of land and resources is decimating Earth, but even without us, the globe would still be experiencing tsunami, earhquakes, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, flash floods, rising sea levels etc- its just that we wouldnt be around to be affected by them.
I think that energy saving is a good practice from a financial point of view, and that the 'green-propaganda' machine has a value if it makes us all less wasteful, as our society is somewhat grotesque in its excesses; but it wont do a damn thing to stop the world going through its natural processes.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#376960 - 01/06/08 05:10 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I like to think I sit on the fence on this one.

The Earth according to science.

It has gone and will indeed go through warming and ice age's because of the different proccesses that are out of the control of man.

The Earth produces its own what is termed as pollution.

Mans input.
Should man be allowed to create so called further pollution?
Will this pollution speed up the occurence of the natural events?
Does the hole in the ozone exist? Has anybody actualy gone up and taken samples ? That should get some certain none thinkers thinking.( Not specificly aiming that comment at you Cord or anybody else , just generalising)

Certain Humans use certain events to futher their own cause and with it do stupid things but that is back to politics again. One thing I was watching on TV last night was how stupid humans that are in charge are and they cant use their own technology correctly.
In 1983 we nearly had world war 3. Nuclear holicost. Why? Because certain humans monitoring other humans technology playing war games thought it was real?

So what hope is there for rational thought about global warming from those in charge?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/06/08 05:27 AM)

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#376961 - 01/06/08 10:20 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
while it's true that the earth does go thru various natural cycles, the amount of carbon dioxide (greenhouse gases) has spiked over and above the natural cycle within the past 150 years (corresponding to the industial age).

whether or not we are spewing enough into the air to change the earth's climate can be debated until it's too late to reverse it. why the big deal with toughening pollution laws? doesn't it seem inherently reasonable to use technology to reduce our pollution of any kind instead of increacing it and seeing what happens?
hell, if Evolution is still debated, then I'm sure this debate will never be resolved.

let's take the buzzword 'global warming' off the table - just look at it as "a industrial global agreement to meet agreed upon limits of pollution emmission." better? because thats all they are trying to do.


The US wouldn't do it - the big companies would cry and moan before threatening to pull their political support. change decreaces short-term profits. Thats exactly what happened when the global industrial community went metric and the US never invested to make it happen...so we are still using a medieval english system. The kind of dumb, short-term thinking that only comes from short-term greed.

who knows about global warming...I only care about global polution levels regardless of what is or isn't proven about it. and contries agreeing to have standards, and then sticking to those standards doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.

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#376962 - 01/06/08 02:01 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Hat tip to Gavin for the following by George Carlin...

We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these **** people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the **** planet?

I'm getting tired of that ****. Tired of that ****. I'm tired of **** Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't give a **** about the planet. They don't care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are ****. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

We're going away. Pack your ****, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" Plastic...[censored].

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see... Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while."
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#376963 - 01/06/08 02:36 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
what I find amazing is that people who aren't familiar with chemistry don't seem to realize that converting gases or increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere only spurs organic growth. Trees and green-growth mediums feed on carbon dioxide... their by-product is oxygen... so unless you want to kill off plant life, CO2 is an important part of the plant-oxygen cycle.

Now, if you want a "cause", it would be "acid rain". Discharges that cause the acidity levels of rainfall to change DO cause environmental harm. They change the soil chemistry so that plants can't live, but it isn't carbon dioxide that's doing that. The "acid-caustic" balance of life is changeable, and when acid levels rise, the "green" lifeforms tend to die off. Nature usually creates a scenario where caustic elements blow in and change the chemistry back to a "neutral" and things start all over again... but one of the posters was right... it's not the U.S. that is killing off the planet. If anyone, the unregulated countries where rainforests and "large timber growth" are being affected are doing more damage than American industry.

Pollution is usually a "local problem", unless you have a volcano erupt, or something on that scale occur. Our EPA laws are probably the most stringent on earth, and you can't have one country "do it all". If they want to control pollution, it has to be enforceable in all countries... not just the U.S. The reason the other country's industries are surging is because businesses can ship their plants overseas and not have to deal with regulation.

I'm all for keeping the planet safe for humans, and not screwing up the world with chemical discharges... but at the same time, it's being used in this instance as a moneymaking scam, i.e. the fakey "carbon credits" scam... so where do we go from here?

Quote:

let's take the buzzword 'global warming' off the table - just look at it as "a industrial global agreement to meet agreed upon limits of pollution emmission." better? because thats all they are trying to do.




As much as I'd like to think that was true, a lot of this is done to grasp governmental control over more people, and has nothing to do with "saving the planet" or "corporate environmental standards" throughout the world. It's being sold on that basis, but you can see the "boogey man" behind the curtain if you look at what it actually does. It's another way for every other nation on earth to stick their hand into the U.S.'s pocket.

It doesn't really matter whether or not they call it "global warming", "climate change", or "blue thursday"... it's still a scam, and it's designed to further pluck America from the lead among "first world nations".

Look at world politics, and you'll see a "resurgance" in Russia, China is booming, India is booming... and it's all about "economic realignment"... not saving the planet. Any time you see a politician touting our compliance with "world environmental standards", you can count on that guy having his pockets lined with gold from the third world countries that are working day and night to strip the riches from America.

I really wish that the "global warming" crisis was real... at least then, there would be legitimate steps to correcting the problem that were doing something rather than making idiots like "plastic man" (Al Gore) and the like richer... while they tell us to hang our wash out on the line as they get on their 747 to go to the grocery.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376964 - 01/06/08 03:14 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
When it gets to -40C (-40F) I'm always reminded of global warming. That is sarcasm of course.

I think we have done some things but not to the degree that we are scared to believe. Weather patterns go in cycles and this is plain for anybody to see and is shown on my regular weather channel as they always lists the dates when temperatures like that were reached prior. I've had hot summers and not so hot summers. I've had @ss freezing winters and not so bad winters; again the weather cycle changes and will again repeat itself.

Environmentalists I've found have always gone overboard and in many cases is something discussed in politics to gain favor. And I'm sure that people in this industry and the amount of monitoring and equipment and such is a billion dollar industry with money to be made for those that capitalize on it ... so I find in too many cases money dictates things. For example, if I purchase a new generation furnace that is suppose to be better for the environment for my home, I can get a tax reduction ... but first I have to spend a whole heck of a lot of money to purchase this unit and who is that money going to? Into the pockets of some company who is capitalizing on this and more then likely pays a cut to the government so that they can give me my tax credit.

I believe we should do all that we can for the environment and I know companies are. All of our plant's waste water is collected, monitored, filtered and cleaned and its waste is disposed by government programs at government selected facilities. All of our paper is recycled. All of our cardboard is recycled. All of our batteries are recycled. We purchased recycled paper. We purchase are recycled toner cartridges and returned them when done. We do a lot and I know other places are too. These are all positives and my wife and I do this at home and have forever. Our city in the last 10 years has had programs for recycling at our dumps with glass bins, paper bins, cardboard bins, plastic bins, grass cutting bins, etc. We as a society are making this better but we still have those die hards screaming murder; we are killing the planet. I know of forest industry companies that plant millions of trees to keep their industry going and their monitoring of what goes into the environment is phenomenal.

I think things are grossly exaggerated and I think we as people need to hear the truth not fiction.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#376965 - 01/06/08 03:19 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

I'm all for keeping the planet safe for humans, and not screwing up the world with chemical discharges...



sidestepping the politics, hype and hoopla - thats all I'm looking for as well. I mean, are we going to go back to having smokestacks , 20ft visability and commercials with crying American Indians?

actually, what would be the commercial today: a teary-eyed American Indian overlooking a casino located on a landfill.


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#376966 - 01/06/08 05:07 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
The most respected scientific bodies have stated unequivocally that global warming is occurring, and people are causing it by burning fossil fuels (like coal, oil and natural gas) and cutting down forests. The U.S. National Academy of Sciences, which in 2005 the White House called "the gold standard of objective scientific assessment," issued a joint statement with 10 other National Academies of Science saying "the scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action. It is vital that all nations identify cost-effective steps that they can take now, to contribute to substantial and long-term reduction in net global greenhouse gas emissions."

So basically every person who has a valid right to an opinion on the science of Global warming and it's causes agree on the basic facts.

This thread is like a bunch of teenage kids discussing the merits of MMA vrs TMA. Stick to MA debates folks, you have credibility in that arena.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#376967 - 01/06/08 05:14 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
theres so much conflicting info out there its hard to figure out the truth. it really is the most futile debate going as the boffins keep clashing their pov's. what can lay people really add????? (i'm using energy efficient lightbulbs just in case!!)
_________________________
"Irony is mainly used by the British in in order to distinguish themselves from Americans, which worked very well until the Americans had more guns than them."

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#376968 - 01/06/08 05:27 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
>>"The most respected scientific bodies have stated unequivocally"
Respected by who? The UN and Al Gore. Certainly not by anyone who wants to see truth in science.

>> "that global warming is occurring, and people are causing it by burning fossil fuels (like coal, oil and natural gas) and cutting down forests."
There has not been any evidence offered up to support this.
What they are saying is that: the earth's tempertaures are warming and we burn fossil fuels, therefore the burning of fossil fuels is warming the earth". This idea completely ignores the fact the climate has always changed - even long, long long before humans burned fossil fuels. It also ignores the fact that temps on other planets have changed and are changing. So unless you think martials are burning fossil fuels, you'll have to come up for another explaination for the changes there.

In England a court of law has ruled that al gore's fictional "documentary" can not be shown in classrooms unless it is accompanied with disclaimers stating that it is largely politicized and based on unproven claims.

I'll have to look for a link to one of the latest articles, but recently a panel of 400 scientists refuted the notion of man-made global warming.

The only people saying that "the debate is over", "it's unequivocal", etc., are those on the political left. And the debate is over for them because accepting the truth can bring an end to thier political goals. There are also those who have accepted the loss in the media war over the issue and are just jumping on the bandwagon now to try and stay in power.

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#376969 - 01/06/08 05:38 PM Br-r-r! Where did global warming go? [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
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web page

THE STARK headline appeared just over a year ago. "2007 to be 'warmest on record,' " BBC News reported on Jan. 4, 2007. Citing experts in the British government's Meteorological Office, the story announced that "the world is likely to experience the warmest year on record in 2007," surpassing the all-time high reached in 1998.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the planetary hot flash: Much of the planet grew bitterly cold.


One of the first things that I see as odd here is that they expected 2007 to be the warmest winter since 1998. If the temps have been steadily rising as is the claim, then why would it not have been the warmwest winter since 2006? And why, in 2006 was it not warmer than 2005?

On our local weather they often show the record high and low for the day. So far this winter our temps have been pretty much in between the record lows and highs for the day. The highs being in the 1960's. If we are not setting record high temps year after year, then the temp is not rising.
Although we are told they are going up what we actually see is that they are going up sometimes and down sometimes.

Think for a minute, if you turned on the tv and were told it was raining and you looked out the window and saw that it was not, would you then start to believe that the sunshine is rain because they told you it was rain? Or would you think for yourself and accept that it is not raining at all and they are wrong?

In regards to "global warming" you have to learn to accept what is actually happening in reality - not what they tell you on tv.

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#376970 - 01/06/08 05:39 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
McSensei Offline
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Kimo, there's always another view.

http://www.junkscience.com/

With valid points that the scaremongers won't address in public debate, how do you expect people to take AGW seriously?
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#376971 - 01/06/08 05:56 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

In England a court of law




So a judge is the final word on truth in science?

Quote:

>>"The most respected scientific bodies have stated unequivocally"
Respected by who? The UN and Al Gore. Certainly not by anyone who wants to see truth in science.





Um the scientist thats who or as I put it before, everyone entitled to have an opinion on the subject.

Quote:

The only people saying that "the debate is over", "it's unequivocal", etc., are those on the political left. And the debate is over for them because accepting the truth can bring an end to thier political goals.




Actually the debate has all but been over in the scientific community for a long time, I don't quote or even concern myself with the politicians or industry, because they all have motives other then the truth.

You want to talk about junk science? Then look at the few scientists who claim the jury is still out on the issue, these are the same types who claimed Cigerettes are not addictive and creationism has scientific merit.

Quote:

This idea completely ignores the fact the climate has always changed - even long, long long before humans burned fossil fuels.




This statment just tells me you are not familar with the science behind the global warming conclusions, if you read just 2 paragraphs into any "layman" explaination of global warming you simply wouldn't write something like that.

Bottom line, this "debate" is occuring only in the politcal arena, the scientists moved on a long time ago.
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#376972 - 01/06/08 06:08 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: McSensei]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Kimo, there's always another view




McSensi....that is clearly a political website and clearly a poltical argument being made, just look at the language they use. Do you honestly think this is how scientists would debate findings and conclusions?

The nice thing about science is it's not really a matter of opinion, it's based on math are results that can be replicated and quantified.
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#376973 - 01/06/08 06:12 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
JAMJTX Offline
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What the British court rules essentially was that "An Inconvenient Truth" is largely a pack of lies and political manipulation - not science.

And only leftist "scientists" have moved on from the debate. There is still science that proves them wrong that they refuse to look at.

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#376974 - 01/06/08 07:44 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
wristtwister Offline
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The heart of a good scam is always "irrefutable truth"... so when it's refuted, you can claim that the "true information" is not really true. That's what's going on in the global warming debate.

Climatologists have told us for years that the weather changes in 20, 50 and 100 year cycles, and that the trends toward global warming and ice ages moves at about 1,000 year cycles. As to date, I'm not aware of anything that has changed that model... other than the "Chicken Little" claims of Al Gore and his leftist buddies .

Unfortunately for him, engineering is a scientific endeavor, so it's easy to recognize what's actually science and what's passed off as science. Except for people who stand to make tons of money from switching everybody to bicycles, I don't see any of the engineering companies falling over backwards to change their engineering models to correct the "global warming" problem... and thats a good measure of actually how legitimate it is.

If there was concrete data that showed correctable margins of change in engineering that could be made to change the outcomes of "global warming discharges" into the atmosphere, both government and engineering would be making those changes. Otherwise would be like sticking your gun in your mouth to do target practice... for engineering is always trying to hit a "target level" of discharge volumes, concentrations, or thermal changes... so without any standard set that reproduces those in measurable ways, it's just Chicken Little telling everybody "the sky is falling".

15 years of being involved in pollution abatement gives you a good read of what's actually going on in environmental issues, and nothing we encountered in our work during that time ever indicated we were doing anything but good for the environment... and when the largest furnaces on earth don't put out measurable heat 15 feet from the building, it reaks of somebody trying to start a panic so they can sell asbestos suits...

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#376975 - 01/06/08 08:08 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

What the British court rules essentially was that "An Inconvenient Truth" is largely a pack of lies and political manipulation - not science.





:sigh: So now we have your interpretation of the English courts ruling and that is lawyers arguing with a politician...why not try basing your opinions on empirical evidence instead of the opinions of lay persons.

Quote:

And only leftist "scientists" have moved on from the debate. There is still science that proves them wrong that they refuse to look at.




Scientist don't use terms like leftist, only propagandist do.

The people with an agenda on this topic are the ones who are working so hard to "debunk" Global Warming. They have a pre determined outcome they are working very hard to try and validate, they are getting very little to no traction in the scientific community because their evidence does not hold up to scutiny....so they are waging a battle in the court of public opinion.

When you hear the term junk science, it's coming from people who are not scientist, and have an agenda. It's not as if MIT says yes to Global Warming and Cal Tech says no it's junk science.

If there was a serious debate on the issue you would hear it from countless respectable scientific bodies...that is not happening. Even the Whitehouse, the far right Whitehouse has given in on the issue.

Now I will say I agree with George Carlin that nature is far more powerful then we will ever be, and that over time any damage we could do would be wiped away in a blip of time.

That does not mean we should not be good stewards of the earth, that does not mean we don't have the abilty to alter the climate in such a way as to do harm to the human existance. It is a lot easier to determine what has happened, then what will. But given the evidence there is no question IMO that we should invest in efforts to at the very least leave the place as we found it.

A final thought, what if the worse case scenario turns out to be true?
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#376976 - 01/06/08 08:15 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

The people with an agenda on this topic are the ones who are working so hard to "debunk" Global Warming. They have a pre determined outcome they are working very hard to try and validate, they are getting very little to no traction in the scientific community because their evidence does not hold up to scutiny....so they are waging a battle in the court of public opinion.

When you hear the term junk science, it's coming from people who are not scientist, and have an agenda. It's not as if MIT says yes to Global Warming and Cal Tech says no it's junk science.




Well said, Kimo. Saved me the trouble.
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#376977 - 01/06/08 08:19 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

I'm not aware of anything that has changed that model... other than the "Chicken Little" claims of Al Gore and his leftist buddies .





Your lack of awareness of gravity has little bearing of it's existence. And the idea that industry would be ahead of the global warming problem really concerns me. Industry wouldn't have hardly any of the safe guards if they were not mandated by regulation. I'd say their lack of adaptation says more about the politcal regulatory environment then any scientific validation.

What I find so interesting and concerning is the complete and utter polticalization of this issue. In lieu of science you here anecdotal examples and "why is it so cold today if there is global warming" (which is really ridiculous because even if you don't think it's man caused, there is NO doubt it's happening).

Barry Goldwater was an environmentalist, so was Teddy Roosevelt. So the term "lefty" has no place in the discussion, unless it;s more about who you don't like, then what is actually true.
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#376978 - 01/06/08 08:20 PM THE CAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING AND PREDICTIONS FOR TH [Re: Kimo2007]
JAMJTX Offline
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Here's atleast 1 University study that disagrees witk Kimo:
http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2006AM/finalprogram/abstract_108164.htm

BTW: Universities have to get involved in politics in order to get government grants. A university in a left leaning state like CA would have a very hard time getting money to do real scientific research into "global warming" if nancy pelosi knew they disagreed with her. On the other hand, if she knew they would rig the data to prove her point, she would fight to get them every penney the asked for. You then have a win, win, win situation - nancy gets to keep beating her drum, the university gets a huge cash infusion and the "scentists" get published and also get a payday. The only losers are the American people.

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#376979 - 01/06/08 09:53 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Your lack of awareness of gravity has little bearing of it's existence.




Sorry, Slick, but gravity wasn't the issue... and just for your information, the "politicizing" of global warming was done by Al Bore and his minions... not me. There's a signicant difference in "stating" scientific facts and proving them. All the math that has been done on the information provided by our former almost-chief executive says that the resulting climate impacts were 10 to 100 times less (.03 to .3 degrees increase as opposed to the stated 3 to 6 degrees used by the global warming wonks.).

Quote:

Industry wouldn't have hardly any of the safe guards if they were not mandated by regulation.




That shows me how much actual "industry experience" you have. EVERY industry has standards that they use for doing their work, manufacturing, and insuring that they aren't dismantling the world by their operations. Sure, some of them were established because of legal regulation, but most industry standards are set by the industries themselves. Unlike politicians, they have good science to back up their conclusions, and do many of the things necessary to keep discharges safe and at safe levels because of liability. They're not stupid enough to think that killing everything downstream won't be tracked back to them, and they know that the EPA will hit them with Superfund fines if they are polluting the streams or air.

Quote:

In lieu of science you here anecdotal examples and "why is it so cold today if there is global warming" (which is really ridiculous because even if you don't think it's man caused, there is NO doubt it's happening).




And that is based on what? My opinion is based on 15 years of environmental engineering practice with major industry, chemical plants, and manufacturing... what's your's based on? My job was building waste treatment plants, effluent and air quality discharge systems... what exactly is the experience you've based your opinion on?

Quote:

Barry Goldwater was an environmentalist, so was Teddy Roosevelt. So the term "lefty" has no place in the discussion, unless it;s more about who you don't like, then what is actually true.




Some more of that "anecdotal information" you were talking about? I don't know what Barry Goldwater or Teddy Roosevelt thought, and don't much care... as far as being "leftists", they could have wiped their butts with their left hand... I have no idea. The leftists in the political arena today, are clearly defined as those that want bigger government, more regulation, less freedom, and elitist control of everything in your life. If you think government will give you a fairer shake than industry when it comes to dealing with air and water quality, you're sadly mistaken... let me give you an example...

One of the plants I worked at in Tennessee used mercury in it's manufacturing process. The EPA came to town and told the company they were going to measure the mercury levels in the river downstream.

The company was fined for a violation of "Arsenic" levels in the river. Naturally occuring arsenic is in the river, and the levels where the EPA took their samples were the same as where they took them upstream of the plant... so the plant was putting none of the arsenic into the river, but it took a year and a half and several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees and fines to convince the court that the EPA had only used the arsenic levels because they couldn't fine the company for their mercury discharges either. The naturally occuring arsenic levels were higher than the EPA standards... but unless the EPA was going to fine God for creating a river that exceeded their limits, the plant where I worked was the first opportunity they had to fine somebody and extract money... so don't look for the government to be "trying to protect you" with their regulations either.

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#376980 - 01/06/08 10:04 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I look at it this way: regardless of who is right or left, correct or wrong - a course towards less pollution is better than a neverending increase. independant of what can or cannot be proven. it's common sense: don't crap where you eat.


btw, for the George Carlin fans...another quote (can't quote the whole thing here):
Quote:


That man... men...males have pushed the technology that just about has this planet in a stranglehold. Mother Earth raped again, guess who..."hey she was asking for it."





a contridiction to his "planet is fine" material...know why? he's a comedian.

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#376981 - 01/06/08 10:53 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
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Ed,
I think it was George Carlin who once said "man is the only animal that can drill for oil thousands of feet beneath the sea, pump it to the top, spill it, and then to clean it up, put a chemical to sink it back to the bottom, killing everything in between..."



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#376982 - 01/07/08 12:25 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Sorry, Slick, but gravity wasn't the issue...




I am about as Slick as Will Ferral on a panty raid, but thanks for the compliment...

Quote:

the "politicizing" of global warming was done by Al Bore and his minions... not me




I am not expressing any support for Al Gore or his movie (which I have not seen) in fact I think I have gone out of my way to dismiss anyone who is political or has an agenda of any kind in favor of listening to those who are truly qualified to evaluate the data.

You (and another) have laced most of your comments with shots and politcal figures on the left and the left itself. That stuff falls on deaf ears, I quickly dismiss anything that sounds like a radio talkshow host.

Quote:

That shows me how much actual "industry experience" you have. EVERY industry has standards that they use for doing their work, manufacturing, and insuring that they aren't dismantling the world by their operations. Sure, some of them were established because of legal regulation,




First read the Jungle, then read up on the labor movement. While sure industry will self regulate to a certain point usually there is a big stick somewhere in the picture.

Quote:

do many of the things necessary to keep discharges safe and at safe levels because of liability




Don't look now but is that a big stick? Sounds like what you are saying is they CYA not because it's the right thing to do, but because they fear the consequences...

Quote:

what exactly is the experience you've based your opinion on?





I don't like questions like this, I have a saying "beware of the man who reads you his resume". The reason being is your arguments or merits should stand on there own. But I will say I spend quite a bit of time with PhD, MD, and engineers at work and at Thanksgiving.


Quote:

let me give you an example...





Your experience with a Chuckleheaded EPA beaurocrat is hardly relevent (although trust me when I say I feel your pain I could tell you plenty of stories as well).

Look I can see why you would have concerns about the ability of Goverment officials to make policy, but that is a different thread.
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#376983 - 01/07/08 12:35 AM Re: THE CAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING AND PREDICTIONS FOR TH [Re: JAMJTX]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Here's atleast 1 University study that disagrees witk Kimo:





Thats one abstract at one conference...AKA, Wednesday 11:15-12:45 in room E205. Ever attended one of these conferences?

My guess is no.

OK guys I am going to tap out, the speaker of the house is supressing all true research in order to push through a poltical agenda...I don't even know where to begin with that one so I'll just go see some coral reefs before they are all dead.

:bows:
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#376984 - 01/07/08 12:46 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
JAMJTX Offline
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"Barry Goldwater was an environmentalist, so was Teddy Roosevelt. So the term "lefty" has no place in the discussion, unless it;s more about who you don't like, then what is actually true."

When did either one of these men lie to the American people about global warming?

There is a huge difference between being an environmentalist and lying about environmental science in order to persue a political agenda.

We certainly should, as I stated before, work to protect and preserve the environment. But what we shouldn't be doing is lying to people about the environment in order to trick them into rolling back thier live styles, doubling thier taxes and all the programs that the libs want force on the people.

The other really big problem I have with this man-made gloabl warming nonsense is watching the government lie to school children about science and call it "education".

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#376985 - 01/07/08 12:58 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
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"Thats one abstract at one conference...AKA, Wednesday 11:15-12:45 in room E205."

Yes, just one OUT OF HUNDREDS.

The science is IN. The notion of man-caused global warming is a lie.

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#376986 - 01/07/08 01:01 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
Cord Offline
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Kimo, if you truly feel this strongly about the environment, then the most responsible thing you (or anyone) can do, is limit the amount of children you (we) create. If everyone adopted the surplus of humanity that exists, and slowed the birth rate, the strain on the worlds resources would be eased considerably.
There are just too damn many of us. 6 billion hungry organisms swarming a tiny, pretty marble floating in an ocean....
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#376987 - 01/07/08 01:14 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
JAMJTX Offline
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They are already doing this in China - country that already has the kind of government wanted by those persuing the "man made global warming" cause.

The over-population is also something that I don't buy into.
I'm sure it is possible to someday over populate the world, but we'r enot there yet.

You can comfortbly fit the whole puplation of the U.S. into TX. If we anted to, we could produce enough food right here in the USA to feed most of the world. But even if we did, there are governments that would stop it from getting to the people.

There may be some places that are over populated - it seems India may actually be. But worldwide it is not a problem and certainly not causing global warming.

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#376988 - 01/07/08 01:17 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Kimo, if you truly feel this strongly about the environment




It's not that I feel that strongly about the environment as much as I feel that strongly about science and the scientific method.

It's a round round world my friend.

Quote:

If everyone adopted the surplus of humanity that exists, and slowed the birth rate, the strain on the worlds resources would be eased considerably.
There are just too damn many of us. 6 billion hungry organisms swarming a tiny, pretty marble floating in an ocean....




The world can always use another Kimo
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#376989 - 01/07/08 06:16 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
Stormdragon Offline
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Even if we aren't doing the damage soem groups would have us believe I agree with Ed that it is pretty well common sense that you shouldn't consume and pollute unendingly and without control, the Global Warming issue aside, the massive amounts of pollution going around some of the larger cities like L.A. and it's outlying communities, Sacramento, Chicago, NYC, Philly, Newark, even here in Salem and Portland Oregon, and it's negative affects on public health is undeniable and reason enough to keep things in check. Not all "progress" is good. Sometimes it's too fast, too uncontrolled, and dangerous in the long run. It's like MA training I mean you take a beginner, give them the basics, but before they master the basics they learn a bunch of advanced or intermediate techniques and they start beating guys they lost to before and looking "cooler" I mean they "know more" and that' progress right? But then they go up agaisnt someone without those fancy moves but solid basics and they get taken out soundly. Why? They progressed improperly and it led to a downfall. Same principle I think. Balance, control, and common sense are the key. There is a reason for the substantial rises in cancer, and cardiovascular disease in the last century or so. Granted there are many other reasons but that is a huge one.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/conten...Lung_Cancer.asp

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/93079.php

http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyliving/harmfulsubstances/

Now I personally beleive in global warming to degree. While I realixe it is a natural process I beleive we've sped up that process, and besides the studies I've seen I have reason to believe from personal experiece: There is a beautiful Glacier a couple miles from where I used to live in the country in central Oregon that has receeded several yards in the last few decades and it's rate of recession increases somewhat each year and has been for these past several decades as the communities nearby have substantially grown as well as cities and whatnot all over. It seems to me to be a contributor but that is just my opinion.
Another sad issue is the loss of Salmon in the surrounding rivers due to warming of those rivers from straightneing them, removing vegetation along the Riparian zone, etc. and I'd think Global Warming certainly could have some effects but again I don't know for sure. Granted with a lot of work to improve the environment we've brought a lot of Salmon back but still. Anyway it would be shame to lose these things for good.
You can go to dangerous extremes to the left but also to the right (not saying that is any of you)
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#376990 - 01/07/08 11:52 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:


It's not that I feel that strongly about the environment as much as I feel that strongly about science and the scientific method.






Dont follow that one.
It would seem the application of science is controlled by money, infleunce and politics.
It would seem from science they create technology with out thinking about the effect on the enviroment.
Fridges springs to mind on that one.
Or is there realy no hole in the ozone? Hard to believe who tells the truth sometimes.

Jude

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#376991 - 01/07/08 12:03 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: jude33]
cxt Offline
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Posts: 5811
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jude

Its a bit of tail chase....technology causes problems but technology often solves them as well.

Ironically the USA not signing Kyoto reduced its emission of various pollutants below that of those thet DID sign.

If the problem is going to be solved--or just greatly reduced, its probably going to be technology that will provide the answer/answers.

Of course that is just going to probably cause OTHER problems.

Were not even really sure what is actually causeing this latest warming trend----the sun activilty data is kinda scary, in that if its not "us"--us being people, that is driving the majority of the change, then forces beyond/out current control might be at work.

We CAN do something about how we live our lives, generate power etc, hard to get China and India etc on board, but there are things we can do and should be doing.

If the main driver is the sun.....then there is little that we can do at this point save rolling with it.


Edited by cxt (01/07/08 12:08 PM)
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#376992 - 01/07/08 12:17 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: jude33]
wristtwister Offline
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Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Or is there realy no hole in the ozone? Hard to believe who tells the truth sometimes.




Interesting question... the holes in the ozone layer are naturally occuring. Trees and "vegetable matter" are the creators of ozone in the first place, so the "hole" in the ozone layer occurs because there are not trees or vegetation at the north and south poles.

I would suggest that none of us want the planet to be polluted and killing off the life forms that we all know and love... but at the same time, we can't stop the natural progression of living on the planet and affecting the "skin" of the planet either. We don't effect "climate change"... we simply are one of the factors that either slow or speed it up, and possibly affect something as minor as a hundredth of a degree of it's overall impact... so mankind isn't "killing the planet". I don't want the snail darter to die off, but I'm not putting my life on hold to protect it either... Dodo birds and passenger pidgeons have both passed away in my lifetime, and the "significant effects" of that haven't turned the clock backwards one tick. Species come and go on the earth all the time, and we should do whatever we can to protect their environment, but not stop the world so they can get off.

Politicians always portray things in a way to garner attention, and "leftists" (big government, control freaks) always have the "sky is falling" scenario of issues... like global warming, health care, and everything else that they can, to scare you into their camp to get your vote. If those issues don't hit you, I'm sure that the other side using the "safety, security, and oil is evil" pundits are making their play for your attention.

What we need is "thinkers" instead of sheep... and people who can see through the to actually see the facts. The world might end in a couple of more thousand or hundred thousand years... who knows? It might get hit by a meteor... or Al Queda might actually get a big enough dirty bomb to poison the entire planet... who knows? What we need to be doing is working toward keeping our lives straight, our environment clean, and trying to work together so that life continues.

Don't run from the scaremongers... and don't flock toward them either. Use your head and good judgement. Most of the time, that will make things work out fine.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376993 - 01/07/08 12:31 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Wrist

"we need thinkers... not sheep."

Good advice in any situtation.

I was watching Bill Mahr one night, and he had a scientist--the name of which escapes me whom was plugging his book.

Among other things that left Mahr and the guests non-plused was a couple of interesting statisical facts.

One was about polar bears---spcifically HUNTING polar bears---the toll taken by hunters is vastly large than the losses due to global warming---couple of 100 a year as opposed to just an esitmated few a year.
His question?
If one were trying to save poler bears then wouldn't it be more effective and faster to decrease the hunting of them???

The second was even more "commen sense" and please forgive me I do not recall the exact numbers.
He mentioend that global warming was held responsible for "X" number of deaths in England/GB--that the increase in temp have led to an increease in heat related deaths.
HOWEVER--what nobody was wanting to talk about was that due to warmer temp and shorter winters many MORE people were NOT dying of cold related problems....with a net gain in lives saved.
He extrapolated it out, assumeing that the global warming people were correct and by a given date (again, sorry, don't recall the exact figures) but the gain in lives saved was many, many times that of lives lost due to heat.

Wish I could recall the guys name, he was really good.
_________________________
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#376994 - 01/07/08 12:59 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: cxt]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Quote:

jude

Were not even really sure what is actually causeing this latest warming trend----the sun activilty data is kinda scary, in that if its not "us"--us being people, that is driving the majority of the change, then forces beyond/out current control might be at work.

Quote:



Hi.CXT.

Just the study of the Earths orbit in relation to the Sun is a mini science of its own.


My simplistic explanation (guess) to date .
From what I can gather the angle between Earth's rotational axis and the normal to the plane of its orbit is 23.44 degrees and is decreasing.
The magnetic North Pole Has Been Moving at an Accelerated Pace Southwards.
Which might be the result of the angle changing ??
Yet it is said Antarctic is Losing 30 Cubic Miles of Ice Each Year.




Looks like they are right to bring in pollution control.
Because it is so complicated it seems they dont know why.
Problem is as usual it gets messy.




To the best of my knowledge the ozone is 0/3 as opposed to 0/2 . An oxygen molocule with 3 oxygen atoms as opposed to
2 oxygen atoms. The hole or the thinning of the ozone is lack of 0/3 said to be caused by pollution .



Jude



Edited by jude33 (01/07/08 01:10 PM)

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#376995 - 01/07/08 01:09 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
jude33 Offline
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Agreed.

Jude

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#376996 - 01/07/08 01:13 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: jude33]
cxt Offline
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Loc: USA
jude

Could be, I'm sorry to say that I'm really not that well-read on what "angles" of the earth might/might not be doing.

Have been reading quite a bit lately on solor activity itself....how the sun behaves and its effects on the earth, more or less regardless of earthly factors.

Which as far as I'm concerned means we should be doing everything we can resonably do to reduce pollution.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#376997 - 01/07/08 01:44 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... *DELETED* [Re: cxt]
jude33 Offline
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Post deleted by jude33

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#376998 - 01/07/08 02:09 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
CXT.
Agreed.
Complicated stuff.


Kimo
Quote:


Your experience with a Chuckleheaded EPA beaurocrat is hardly relevent (although trust me when I say I feel your pain I could tell you plenty of stories as well).
Look I can see why you would have concerns about the ability of Goverment officials to make policy, but that is a different thread.





I dissagree. It is totaly relevent. The whole world would be a better place if people did their jobs correctly. That includes investigations in to global warming.

If who ever it was took quite a few samples at different times/dates from upstream and realy investigated, on what I understand to be a scientific basis, what was happening then perhaps the truth could have been aquired quickly.

I presume the person in charge of that part of the investigation was a scientist?

If so is that typical? If they werent then why not?
I dont suppose you know if they were scientists or not. But unless this kind of poor investigation skills is addressed then is it any wonder there is so much confusion?

Jude

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#376999 - 01/07/08 02:30 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Politicians always portray things in a way to garner attention, and "leftists" (big government, control freaks) always have the "sky is falling" scenario of issues... like global warming, health care, and everything else that they can, to scare you into their camp to get your vote. If those issues don't hit you, I'm sure that the other side using the "safety, security, and oil is evil" pundits are making their play for your attention.





Wrist, a good post with overall concepts I think we all can agree on.

The thing is, I really don't like to see "lefty Al Bore" type comments in any debate because it's just as easy to take the same pot shots at the other side and in the end accomplishes very little.

The liberals are accused of gloom and doom and big goverment, (and that may be true) yet the Neo Con's used fear to sell a war and created the largest layer of Governent and control since the Roosevelt Admin, and has spent more money then any administration (adjusted for inflation) in history.

My point is not to bash the right or left, they are equally bashable, just to state that most of us agree a lot more then we disagree, and all of those right/left zingers do nothing to improve the debate or discover the truth.

So we disagree on the causes of Global Warming, I think your nuts, you think I am nuts. Fair enough.

But we both agree that being good stewards of the earth is a good thing, leave it like we found it the best we can. Nature is far more powerful and mysterious then we will ever understand, and what will happen will happen. But I think we would all agree the clean air and renewable fuels are a good thing.

Personally I like my goverment to make sure my food is not going to kill, my roads are paved and if my house catches on fire someone will show up and put it out.

After that, I'd prefer they stay out of my life...that is not the case though...the goverment tells me who to marry, how to die, when and where I can or cannot pray, what I can say, who I can hire...etc etc etc...So I wouldn't say I am liberal but that also doesn't mean EVERY idea they have is a bad one.

Ideas based on Merit and thoughfulness get my attention.

-Kimo
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#377000 - 01/07/08 03:22 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


After that, I'd prefer they stay out of my life...that is not the case though...the goverment tells me who to marry, how to die, when and where I can or cannot pray, what I can say, who I can hire...etc etc etc...




You see, that is why I love the net- someone decides to post as 'the voice of reason' having been no such thing throughout the thread in question, they take the middle road, agree to disagree etc etc, but then they...just...cant...quite... make it...to the end...of the post....without shaking up another hornets nest and betraying themselves as anything but neutral. Nice try, but you shattered your own illusion

If you think anyone other than your wife to be decides exactly the circumstances of your marriage, then you are truly not seeing the truth
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#377001 - 01/07/08 03:22 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: jude33]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

I presume the person in charge of that part of the investigation was a scientist?

If so is that typical? If they werent then why not?
I dont suppose you know if they were scientists or not. But unless this kind of poor investigation skills is addressed then is it any wonder there is so much confusion?





If you have had to work with goverment agencies you might understand both the frusration and why it's not relevant to the research behind the cause of Global Warming.

I don't want to say it's like comparing your Math teacher to Sir Issac Newton, but it kinda of is.

Are these people schooled in science sure, are they doing groundbreaking research...not so much.

As a disclaimer, not all people who work for the goverment are bad, often it's the system they must operate under that leads to mind boggeling levels of incompetence.
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#377002 - 01/07/08 08:50 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

If you have had to work with goverment agencies you might understand both the frusration and why it's not relevant to the research behind the cause of Global Warming.





I've had to work with dozens of government agencies over the years, and I understand both the individual and institutional stupidity of some of the government representation. They have "the power", so they are not easily dissuaded from any point of view that the agency in question takes, so regardless of how well your case represents the truth, the mission of government is to extract wealth from the private sector to fund it's operations... so don't look for much sympathy from them for "the truth", and don't look for much sympathy for them from me, because I fully understand how they work and how to deal with them. Most of the time, it reaches an impasse and becomes a legal matter, unless they actually have employed someone with some sense.

Government in America operates through "process", not information, and they (meaning "agencies") make their collective bones from pressuring businesses and individuals into knuckling under to their will. That's why the constitution has so many safeguards to protect the people from the government... it was exactly why the Mayflower left England. Government hasn't changed, and people haven't changed, so they still require substantial protection from runaway government power... and when a former vice-president takes the stage to pound an agenda that he quietly spent two terms setting up (remember "re-inventing government?) and then steps onto the world stage to promote it... the people are starting out from behind...

Personally, I've always thought "plastic man" Al Bore (who "reinvents" himself constantly) was the primal example of idiocy. He's never had a thought go through his head that wasn't redirected to politics and the solicitation of power for himself and his leftist agenda... and I don't really care that you don't like the term "leftist", would you prefer "communist"? Go back to the early 1900's and read the newspapers... that's what all the communists were called back then (leftists). The language has only recycled.

I don't presuppose to change anybody's mind about global warming... and you're welcome to think the "junk" presented as science is science if you wish. When your math skills are off by a factor of 100, your results are too... so the simple miscalculation of the actual temperature change from all the effects of "global warming" are actually minute compared from what is being broadcast by "Chicken Little" Gore... so you might want to get a grip before you swallow his "scientific theory" and political speak, which is the actual "science" of the global warming theory. It was so bad that the "global warming" discussions were changed to "climate change" because the g-w arguments were getting shot down faster than snoopy and the red baron... and they were changed because all of the "predictions" of increasing temperatures and storms of cat-5 magnitude "failed to materialize".

The formulas for climate change are very complicated, and their "extended dates of margin" run in hundreds of years... not months and years, as stated by the g-w crowd. Life as we know it has been around a while, and while we're in the middle or front end of the "industrial ages", we're a long way from totally crapping out the planet and it's resources. There's actually more damage done by a volcanic eruption than all the industry in the world... and if you don't think so, talk to the people near Mount St. Helens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_St._Helens

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#377003 - 01/07/08 09:33 PM The Grady has done everything thread [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I would just like the weather to be cold in the winter and hot in the summer.
I'm not a scientist and I haven't had every job in the market to qualify me,but I doo feel that everyone needs to do what they can for the environment. It's our responsibility as humans.
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#377004 - 01/07/08 09:47 PM Re: The global warming thread [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
No reason to be a [censored] about things, Brian. If it offends you that I trained as a mechanical engineer with a minor in electrical engineering, and worked in the environmental business for 15 years, I'm just sorry as hell for you.

Evidently, something I've said or done over the past few months has pulled your short hairs, so why don't you PM me and let me know what it is?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#377005 - 01/07/08 10:33 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

After that, I'd prefer they stay out of my life...that is not the case though...the goverment tells me who to marry, how to die, when and where I can or cannot pray, what I can say, who I can hire...etc etc etc...So I wouldn't say I am liberal but that also doesn't mean EVERY idea they have is a bad one.


-Kimo




The goverment tells you who to marry?
I presume you still can vote in your country?

Jude

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#377006 - 01/07/08 11:12 PM The Grady is a jack of all trades thread [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Nah Grady. I really do believe that you are a "undercover disaster recovery deputized fugitive pipe boiler designer and cleaner for a church nursery." LOL!!!



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#377007 - 01/08/08 12:51 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

but then they...just...cant...quite... make it...to the end...of the post....without shaking up another hornets nest and betraying themselves as anything but neutral.




Why whatever do you mean?

Besides this thread has never been about reason, I gave up that hope several pages ago.
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#377008 - 01/08/08 03:43 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
groundbreaking news:

Bush Acknowledges Existence Of Carbon Dioxide

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/bush_acknowledges_existence_of

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#377009 - 01/08/08 03:55 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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First co2 now they might say WATER exists? What is the world coming too? Now we KNOW the end is near! Preposterous.
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#377010 - 01/08/08 03:57 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
JMWcorwin Offline
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#377011 - 01/10/08 03:41 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
Quote:

Why whatever do you mean?

Besides this thread has never been about reason, I gave up that hope several pages ago.




Global warming has never been about "reason" but rather about a crow bar of redistribution. I currently do alternative fuels research using beta mirrors to cleave water into hydrogen, oxygen, and hydrogen peroxide. I've consulted at NREL (National Renewable Energy Lab) and NCAR (National Center for Atmospheric Research). I did my post doc in physics, my Ph.D. in physical chemistry (University of Florida under Russ Drago), MS in math (University of Colorado), BS in chemistry and a BS in fisheries biology. I'm a board certified industrial toxicologist as well as a certified auditor for Clean Air Act, Resource Conservation Recovery Act (RCRA), Clean Water Act, Super Fund and SARA Title II among others. That is my Curriculum Vitae in brief. So I guess I will fit into the “unreasonable” class when I say, point blank, that this whole concept of a “scientific consensus” thing is a farce! The anthropogenic forcing of global warming amounts to between 2% to 7%, if even that much! And mathematically the models are about as flawed as anything I’ve looked at. They depend on, and require multiple positive feed backs that have actually turned out to be negative feed backs. Such things as water vapor, which is the most “potent” greenhouse gas there is. The models base “their” prognostications on as the earth warms, water vapor will increase, form thin Sirius type clouds which allow for solar radiation incidence, and then “trap” thermal recoil. However, what actually happened is that deep clouds formed, shielding solar input and transferring thermal recoil by convection. Hence, it resulted in a net cooling affect. I can go on and on about these sorts of things but would suggest that you read the works Dr. Sally Baliunas (Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and Director of the Mount Wilson Observatory), Dr. Patrick Michaels (Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science, University of Virginia), Dr. Jen Oxalson (NCAR), just to point out a few.

I would also ask you to consider the following - 48 of the 50 states have state climatologist. Fully 80% of them offer that anthropogenic forcing of the current warming trend is very minimal. Now I can go on about this to the point of nausea. I can recount how funding has been removed for research that didn’t “fit” the status quo. Or how the president of the National Academy strongly warned our members against “slanting” our research for the sake of funding. Or the fact that most members of the Geophysical Union find anthropogenic forcing to be minimal, if not laughable. We could also get into the projections of how the current warming trend will increase global food production, and therefore the prosperity of even the poorest of the poor. We could also talk about the economic consequences and I can refer you to studies by the likes of Edward Prescott and Fin Kydland (Nobel Laureates) and Brian Arthur (Professor Emeritus in Economics, Stanford). We could also talk about the growing evidence that the temperature began to rise prior to an increase in CO2 levels. Wait a second, effect precedes cause, anybody else have a problem with this?

There is no consensus, and in fact, more and more of us are becoming skeptical because frankly, the science behind anthropogenic forcing is some of the worst I’ve ever seen!

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#377012 - 01/10/08 09:34 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: floatfishski]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Dang, look at the brain on you. Thanks.
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#377013 - 01/10/08 10:21 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Dereck]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
uh yeah..

My brain hurt just reading it.
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#377014 - 01/10/08 10:32 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: floatfishski]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768

everything humans are doing ecologically short and long-term is fine and the recommendation is to do nothing...is that the advice of your PhD breakfast club?

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#377015 - 01/10/08 10:57 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


everything humans are doing ecologically short and long-term is fine and the recommendation is to do nothing...is that the advice of your PhD breakfast club?




He is not advising anything, he is merely pointing out that the empirical evidence linking global warming to our pollution is not strong or conclusive. This is not new or radical info, its just not pushed hard by the media because crisis sells papers and is good for ratings, and not pushed by governments because they can use 'the environment' as an excuse to levy 'green taxes' and further their own ambitions.
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#377016 - 01/10/08 11:05 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Amazing to me the resistance coming to common sense ideas like "don't pollute" and "save energy", etc. I'm pretty sure that Los Angelos', Las Vegas', the Mid West's smog problems are not anything natural.

To think that human endeavour is not affecting the environment seems preposterously short-sighted.
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#377017 - 01/10/08 11:12 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: MattJ]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I am not doubting that we are having an effect in regards natural resources, the ecosystem, and that spect of things, and I am certainly not against being mindfull of playing a part in helping that- i recycle, I switch off lights (in fact, part of my job is to switch off lights in departments on night shift to bring energy expenditure down), and I have chosen not to breed, so I am not responsible for any other little polluters plopping into the world.
Thats all good, but there is real disagreement in scientific circles regarding our role in the specifics of global warming. Thats just the way it is.
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#377018 - 01/10/08 11:39 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
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mine was in the form of a question.

anyway, I don't think in terms of global warming so much as just polution control. I can't 'sense' the average surface temperature of the whole earth, but I know something's wrong if pilots have a hard time seeing the runway near a city on a clear sunny day. or people walk around with smog masks.


shanghai
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/_attachments_shang_kenneth_pollution1009.jpg

LA
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/resources/oceanography-book/Images/LA-smog-2.jpg

mexico city
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/687806.jp...84831B75F48EF45


etc...literally (but varying of course) every city in the world.



I'd be more worried about our local pollution than global warming. that way too, the anti-global-warmers get the sense of victory and go away.

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#377019 - 01/10/08 01:05 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
the government declared today the go ahead for a new generation of nuclear power stations has been approved. we can one day tell the russians and saudis etc go take a hike with their gas and oil. and its carbon neautral, ok there is the issue of the waste but one way or the other power generation has sie effects but at least we're in control of our power and not at the mercy of others.
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#377020 - 01/10/08 01:40 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
floatfishski Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
I believe that you are taking the correct approach by focusing on real pollution and not on the neo-political redistribution that defines every "solution" the Branch AlGorevidians offer. We've piddled away billions on science that is at best very weak. Imagine where we'd be if we had spent that money on alternative energy, fusion research, pollution abatement, so forth and so on. By all means, take every step you can to reduce how you inefficiently use resources. If everybody does this, and it turns out that I am incorrect, then we will have still done the single greatest thing to ameliorate anthropogenic forcing.

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#377021 - 01/10/08 02:02 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: grumbleweed]
floatfishski Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
The expansion of nuclear power was inevitable, and desirable in today’s energy climate. And the waste issue isn’t what it once was. From current vitrification (high firing it with a boron glass), to polymer in capsulation, the hazardous radiation is significantly contained for millenniums. Additionally, because the products of fission are themselves, rather energetic, there is a new focus on how to apply them to beneficial use. This includes my research which uses high energy Beta emitters (from reactor waste) in special types of ceramics (called Beta mirrors), to cleave water for the production of hydrogen fuels. Water is the single most abundant source of hydrogen but, unfortunately, it takes more energy to get hydrogen from it than is returned in it’s use as a fuel. So all of the hydrogen we get now comes from oil. By using the energy found in reactor waste we put said waste to productive use, end up with a positive energy balance, and move away from petroleum dependency.

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#377022 - 01/10/08 03:59 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: floatfishski]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
This thread reminds me of the big push by environmentalist and the "green" theories. They had everybody scared about using phosphates and that we were killing the environment and we need to go to non-phosphated products. That we needed to use more materials that were biodegradable and we need to change the way were doing things. This had some merit but blown out of proportion and many industries took advantage of this and made a killing.

Phosphates are mined from the environment;from the ground, and are returned to the ground. We cannot live without phosphates nor can the environment. However in slow moving areas of water the plant sources would feed on the extra phosphates and thus taking over that environment and in some cases could kill off fish and such due to the lack of oxygen and sunlight.

In the chemicals industrial, and I can speak as a reliable source being in this industry 20 years come March 1st, 2008, there was a big push to jump on board and the replacement for phosphate products was NTA. Surprisingly years later through follow up testing they found that products containing NTA were also carrying with it down the sewer lines the minerals from the metals thus creating far greater hazards then phosphates ever did. Phosphates were accumulative over years and in a short time adverse affects of NTA were very apparent.

Then we get in to "biodegradable" when in fact all soaps are biodegradable and most things are with some taking slightly longer then others; not including solids such as metal an such of course and why there are recycling of these materials. Many companies would tote their products as being biodegradable or environmentally friendly as a marketing ploy and I took it as my responsibility to make sure people were educated and informed and did not buy into all of this hype.

That is the same with this thread. Too many people are not totally educated and what information out there is being exploited and blown out of proportion. In order to make things better people must understand what is going on and not buy into all that they hear which gets regurgitated by the media and the people around them. We are responsible for what happens to this earth for what we have control over should we not also take the responsibility to understand it as well so we can make the necessary changes? Responsibility does not mean you turn into a sheep.
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#377023 - 01/10/08 04:51 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Dereck]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

This thread reminds me of the big push by environmentalist and the "green" theories




I thought I saw a thread on how politics were not to be discussed on this forum, I wonder why this thread is not locked as it has clearly become political.

The strawman argument is one where you discredit the source, not the issues. Byand large those who do not like the idea of Global warming, go after the models, the estimates i.e. the guesses as to what the results will be.

What they chose not to address is what is not seriously debated, (1) there is warming, (2) it's faster then it should be (3) 75% of the increase can be attibuted to human activity (4) if we do nothing, many many preventable bad things could and most likely will happen.

These findings are virtually unopposed by any reputable scientific body.

In the face of all that, if you want to chose that it's all some leftist conspiracy to gouge the American taxpayer out of a few bucks, thats your business. If you prefer the opinion of one Ph.D. student over thousands of scientist and multiple think tanks, OK then you are no sheep.

But all that aside, is there anyone here who does not think that the next step is to get in balance with our environment? Does anyone hold the postion of "why bother, it doesn't matter what we do anyway"?

Because if thats the case, arguing over the models or anything else seems mute to me.
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#377024 - 01/10/08 05:27 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I think I can speak for everybody that we are all in agreement as individuals we all need to do something to make the world a better place and I think for a lot we are on the right track. However the problem is those that embellish and blow things out of proportion for personal endeavors or to raise attention to their group whether it is politically driven or not as ultimately extra funding goes to those projects whether legit or not and somebody is always making out like a bandit. That is the injustice because crap that spills out gets regurgitated and soon too many people take it as the truth without questioning it or afraid to question it. Where would we be if we didn't question everything; still thinking the world was flat and letting the church dictate how we are to think.
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#377025 - 01/10/08 06:13 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: floatfishski]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
floatfishski,
when I was doing mechanical design engineering, one of the projects I worked on was a nuclear fuel reprocessing facility. The "theory" was that we could spike nuclear waste with an isotope and make it "too hot" to make a bomb, and then "de-spike" it and use it as nuclear fuel.

The theory was sound... the practical side broke down when the spiked material hit a surface temperature that melted through even the ceramic "holders" and we had a "meltdown". I'm sure there's a hole to the center of the earth where it happened, but I can relate to your research and how complicated it can get. The amounts of waste used in the research were miniscule, but the results were explosive... so it doesn't take much to do a lot in the thermonuclear business... and if your research can "fix" our oil dependence, we probably have enough material to be energy sufficient forever... but I'm sure we still have the naysayers who think "all nuclear is bad"... Oooooohhh! ...and I'd bet they're the same ones that are promoting the global warming scam on people.

Dereck made a good point about the phospates issue, and people unfamiliar with science or chemistry really don't understand that we're only a few atoms away from being energy sufficient into any forseeable future, and totally independent of oil or sulphur-laden fuels creating the deadly CO2 that chicken little is so afraid of.

To Kimo...

Kimo said:
Quote:

What they chose not to address is what is not seriously debated, (1) there is warming, (2) it's faster then it should be (3) 75% of the increase can be attibuted to human activity (4) if we do nothing, many many preventable bad things could and most likely will happen.





First of all, climatologists all over the world have disputed that "there is warming". (1) The trends in climatology don't indicate that at all, and isn't something that they can measure in one or two years, but is measured in hundreds and thousands of years for trending.
(2)"it's faster then it should be"... and "how fast should it be"? The statistics cited by Gore and the pundits of Global Warming are off by factors of 100, so the climatilogical rates of cooling and warming would be off by exponentially large numbers when fed into "rate of change" models. Usually, in engineering, when we hit such staggering numbers, we check them... but obviously, they fit the "chicken little" model that they want to popularize, so they run with those numbers.
(3) There is no empirical data that actually shows climatilogical change that has been effected by man's living on the earth, other than some local pollution numbers of fixed bodies of water... and those are not "climate change" effects, but baseline "life support" numbers, and localized to the area polluted.
(4)" if we do nothing, many many preventable bad things could and most likely will happen." This, in a nutshell, IS the "chicken little" theory... no specifics, no attributable cause and effect, just general alarm that the sky is falling and we're responsible.

I worked in the pollution control business, and there IS pollution out there... it's fixable, and in great measure is fixed by the industries that are polluters. Those that don't, are fined, and for the most part, shut down... at least in the United States.

Quote:

These findings are virtually unopposed by any reputable scientific body.


They are opposed by a large segment of the scientific community, and if by "reputable scientific body" you mean "real scientists", you're dead wrong... for you don't seem to be able to separate your "climate change" from "pollution" arguments, and pollution is a localized problem... not a "worldwide" panacea. True, it's a big problem, but it shows up and gets fixed, at least in this country.

Quote:

I thought I saw a thread on how politics were not to be discussed on this forum, I wonder why this thread is not locked as it has clearly become political.




It's only political if you want to make it a political issue. That statement is usually made when you start losing the argument because your facts don't muster up... and this has been one of the more civil discussions as of late. Floatfishski gave you some resources to read:
Quote:

I can go on and on about these sorts of things but would suggest that you read the works Dr. Sally Baliunas (Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics and Director of the Mount Wilson Observatory), Dr. Patrick Michaels (Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science, University of Virginia), Dr. Jen Oxalson (NCAR), just to point out a few.


, but I would suppose that reading that would be contrary to your actual predisposed position, so I don't expect any results there.

You can't "strike a match and affect the climate", any more than you can filter water and make it "unpolluted". The causes and effects are more complicated than that... and the effects of change, especially in climatilogical arenas, would take eons to show up in the models.

The global warming wonks took the easy way... fudge the numbers and shout that the sky is falling. You almost have to want it to be true to believe it... and that's what they're banking on... and banking is the right word...

Wanna buy my carbon credits?"

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#377026 - 01/10/08 07:12 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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#377027 - 01/10/08 07:45 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Dereck]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

I think I can speak for everybody that we are all in agreement as individuals we all need to do something to make the world a better place and I think for a lot we are on the right track. However the problem is those that embellish and blow things out of proportion for personal endeavors or to raise attention to their group whether it is politically driven or not as ultimately extra funding goes to those projects whether legit or not and somebody is always making out like a bandit. That is the injustice because crap that spills out gets regurgitated and soon too many people take it as the truth without questioning it or afraid to question it. Where would we be if we didn't question everything; still thinking the world was flat and letting the church dictate how we are to think.




Nice concise post, and accurate.

It seems that most persons (not all by a long way) seem to have forgotten the timescale involved in global change. The history of the globe on which we live is one of continual climatic change, which has extended over hundreds of thousands of years and tends to be cyclical in nature. If you recall, in the 1960's the 'mainstream' scientific community was predicting a new Ice Age within the next 40 years, and yet, actually inside that timescale the self same 'mainstream' scientific community is forecasting uncontrollable global warming. Am I alone in sensing a considerable inconsistency here?

If we look at the scientific community in general they seem to be less than consistent. A few years ago, eggs were deemed to be very bad for you, allegedly linked to some form of cancer risk. Now we are told that it's OK to have a three egg omelette every day. Similarly, we were warned off from eating fish, on the pretext that it contained a dangerous level of heavy metal toxins. Today they regard fish as being the ultimate source of Omega3 fatty acids. Only a couple of years ago Bananas were the work of the Devil, now they are as safe as houses. Come on you science guys, get your act together and start singing from the same hymn sheet.

Planet Earth, will not be killed by any actions Homo Sapien takes. The Earth is more than capable of healing its own wounds, and it will survive whatever mankind throws at it. I hardly consider that running a motor car to be the great evil which it is made out to be by the leftward leaning greens, vegetarian beard growers or any other form of loopy non-thinkers which a politically dogmatic, primarily envious movement of 'non-haves' deems it to be. Quite frankly, it would seem to be the politics of envy, rearing its ugly head yet again.

If I remember correctly, my old Physics Teacher used to assert that "matter cannot be destroyed, only its form changed". That being the case, we have little to worry about, as everything which is here, was here when the world started and will be here when it ends. The means to that end is most unlikely to be a result of any action taken by mankind, and it demonstrates very effectively the arrogance of mankind that they think they have the power to do so.

MC.
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#377028 - 01/10/08 07:47 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Kimo2007]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
Quote:

Quote:

models, the estimates i.e. the guesses as to what the results will be.




Sorry, but the entire conflab over global warming is based on those models/estimates and their stunning and profound inaccuracy! None, and I do mean none, of your other points stand up to the rigid lense of data evaluation. The earth is not warming at a rate that exceedes any an history, unless of course you base that on the models that you say refuting is a "straw man". So you get to base your arguments on the conjecture of the models/estimates but when I point out the flaws all of a sudden I'm offering a strawman by refuting the very thing you offer your supposition(s) on? 100% of the global warming casuistry is based on the models and estimates, none of which have come close to reality. In fact, the average error is in excess of 300% and that is what you are basing the entirety of your argument on. The facts are, the earth has seen many warming periods where the rate of temperature rise is much greater than we are seeing now, including the middle ages warming period. Do you want to get into oxygen isotope (16/18) partitioning which clearly shows this? Or maybe you want to revisit the discredited Mann tree ring study? It is not a straw man to challenge the data used in the projections. It is, however, a straw man to use data of questionable value to argue for a point you want to be true. I challenge you to do some real research into ALL of the arguments. You just might find that you will sit down to an ale and hear “Hmmmm” echoing in your mind.

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#377029 - 01/10/08 08:49 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina

1st link... led to IPCC information; Googled IPCC and got:
Quote:

Oslo, 10 December 07 - The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Albert Arnold (Al) Gore Jr. were awarded of the Nobel Peace Prize "for their efforts to build up and disseminate greater knowledge about man-made climate change, and to lay the foundations for the measures that are needed to counteract such change".




The IPCC is a"United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP)", who just happen to be in bed with Al Gore on this issue. It was no problem for old "Al baby" to "reinvent government" and have the EPA follow his mantra... after all, these guys' jobs were on the line. We all know how upstanding and forthright anything the United Nations does turns out... does "oil for food" ring a bell? As for it being a "scientific organization", just because there are scientists in it doesn't make it's literature and sales information "scientific data".

2nd link
Quote:

Introduction
This page is based on a brief synopsis of the 2001 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and the National Research Council's 2001 report Climate Change Science: An Analysis of Some Key Questions, as well as NCDC's own data resources.




Same guys in a different ninja mask...

3rd link... Ecobridge

from one of their own posted job recruitment documents...
Quote:

EcoBridge connects people and organizations in the US and Russia for environmental action and problem-solving. The goal of the EcoBridge program is on-going, self-sustaining projects that result in better understanding of acute environmental problems and
solutions to them. CEC's staff provides leadership and assistance to international projects that link educators, scientists, public officials, students, and citizen activists.




I found it interesting that this 501(c)3 organization has exchange programs with almost every communist and socialist country in the world, and is making policy decisions for American legislators, writing legislation, and having their minions propose it in different legislatures... a "government by proxy" if you will. Maybe you trust organizations like those funded by George Soros, and those of his ilk, but I have an aversion to communism... and these people seem linked at the hip with every leftist government and socialist organization in the world. They also seem to be controlling the output of information relating to "climate issues".

(4th link) Quotes an article from guess who... Ecobridge... our leftist friends from link 3...

(5th link) Our friends from CNN (which we in the communications business call the "Clinton News Network") are simply trumpeting the mantra from... who else... the IPCC... and their minions. Every bit of this is the same information recycled with the "chicken little" theory as its basis.

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#377030 - 01/10/08 08:51 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
wow, check out Commander McGoogle.

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#377031 - 01/10/08 10:42 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
I got my black belt in "google-fu" from you... Don't be so modest...

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#377032 - 01/10/08 11:20 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
flattery just got you promoted to ni-dan in 'the virtual way'. congrats.

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#377033 - 01/11/08 06:14 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Could we scam our way to giving me the Nobel peace prize? I need the money...



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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#377034 - 01/11/08 08:17 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Blackrainbow Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
Hey folks, we are martial artist. Peace is not our business.
But seriously, talk about genious at work. I was reading the home town paper (Toledo Ohio) and this AM they have a big front page article about the grand opening of a huge new ethanol plant outside of town. The product they are using to produce the ethenol (whiskey) is corn. Now anyone who has ever done any farming will tell you that corn is one of the most expensive and labor intensive crops to grow. It takes huge amounts of fertilizer usually high grade phosphates and tons of insecticides and herbicides all produced from petroleum. Now most of the corn produced in the U.S. is used for cattle feed, food products such as oils and sweeteners etc. So if we divert corn to ethanol production for fuel what happens to food prices ? The people in Brazil, a third world country seem to have solved the problem. They make ethenol from sugar cane and a plant called switchgrass, both easy and cheap to grow and use the plant bi products not only for cattle and hog feed but burn it in low emmision power plants to power the very facilities that produce the ethanol. The result is they import very little oil and export ethanol and fuel is usually about $0.99 cents a gallon (U.S.) at the pump. This is a good thing as the reduction in pollutants helps in a very miniscule way offseting the huge amount of pollution caused by burning down the Amazon rain forest. By the way, we grow huge amounts of sugar cane in the U.S. which is highly subsidized by the government and switch grass grows wild all over the U.S. and can even grow in rocky nasty soil where crops won't grow and is drought tolerant. Ok, there is your Nobel prize. Find a way to get our government to start using some common sense and follow the lead of countries like Brazil. All you will have to do is find a way to keep the CEO's of big oil out of the way. If fuel goes down to $0.99 a gallon what would happen to those $35,000,000 per year bonuses they are receiving ? In the meantime I use ethanol every once in a while.
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#377035 - 01/11/08 09:51 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:


1st link... led to IPCC information; Googled IPCC and got:
Quote:

Oslo, 10 December 07 - The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Albert Arnold (Al) Gore Jr. were awarded of the Nobel Peace Prize "for their efforts to build up and disseminate greater knowledge about man-made climate change, and to lay the foundations for the measures that are needed to counteract such change".









"In bed together".

Grady, you crack me up. Simply amazing that you can dismiss an entire, worldwide peer-reviewed consensus about global warming.

And make up your mind - does the rest of the world hate us or not? If they are all socialists and communists that hate us, why would they take a position supported by a prominent American, and the two most influential ecological policy arms of our own goverment? Are the EPA and NOAA communists as well? Ridiculous.

Quote:

just because there are scientists in it doesn't make it's literature and sales information "scientific data".




The scary thing is, I think you actually believe that.
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#377036 - 01/11/08 11:34 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

If they are all socialists and communists that hate us, why would they take a position supported by a prominent American, and the two most influential ecological policy arms of our own goverment? Are the EPA and NOAA communists as well?




Matt,
The answer is obvious. Al Gore is not an American. Tipper is, but Al is not.
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#377037 - 01/11/08 11:41 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: oldman]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Tipper is, but Al is not.




Bless Tipper Gore, she did more to ensure kids bought obscene content music albums than any other person on earth. Rick Rubin must have had her on the payroll
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#377038 - 01/11/08 11:47 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Quote:

Tipper is, but Al is not.




Bless Tipper Gore, she did more to ensure kids bought obscene content music albums than any other person on earth. Rick Rubin must have had her on the payroll




LOL. I went out and bought "Cop Killer" because of that. Still listen to it.

"There goes the neighborhoooOOOOOOOd!"


Edited by MattJ (01/11/08 11:55 AM)
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#377039 - 01/11/08 06:05 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
..."Last year was among the six warmest years since records began in the 1850s and the British Met Office said last week that 2008 will be the coolest year since 2000, partly because of a La Nina event that cuts water temperatures in the Pacific."

Here's the article: web page

I still want to know why, if the we are seeing "global warming", was 2007 only one of the 6 warmest years since the 1850's. Why not THE warmest?
Here again, this "scientist" refuses to recognize teh fact that temperatures also go down.

This same article says that they expect 2008 to be cooler than last year. It then says "global warming has not ended".

This article was linked from a site that had another article about the first snow in Baghdad in 100 years. I would think that the temperature must have dropped quite a bit there.

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#377040 - 01/11/08 06:16 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
"The record year for world temperatures was 1998, ahead of 2005, according to WMO data. Among recent signs of the effects of warming, Arctic sea ice shrank last year to a record low."

The above quote is from the same article. Even though we have seen unequivocal global warming, they have to back 10 years to find a record high.

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#377041 - 01/11/08 07:43 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Here again, this "scientist" refuses to recognize teh fact that temperatures also go down.




Sorry, Jim. Science is noting the trend to Global Warming. No one said it is a perfectly linear scale, either. I suppose by your logic you expect Monday to be warmer than Sunday, which would have been warmer than Saturday....etc. Come on man. Get real. It would be like 300F in a month.

No one is suggesting that the seasons are going to disappear tomorrow. The whole thing is, the damage is controllable NOW. If we keep trying to ignore the science because we're lazy or stupid, we are simply digging the whole deeper - for the next generation. But I guess this is what modern America is about. "Hey it's not affecting me, so why should I worry?"

How do you guys even square that with the preservation instincts and training that you get from martial arts? I don't expect to be in a fight anytime soon, but I train just in case. I don't expect the Polar ice cap to melt next week, either. But I have replaced all the incandescent bulbs in my house, and drive a four cylinder car. It COULD be a problem, so let's take some steps, huh?

Quote:

This article was linked from a site that had another article about the first snow in Baghdad in 100 years.






It is not giving a friggin local weather report for you. I can pick out specific incidents all day, too. How about the temperature trend right here on the East Coast? Baltimore just set a January high temp record of 70F/22C, with several days of well above-average temperatures. So now I guess it's back on, right? Geez.
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#377042 - 01/11/08 07:56 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
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Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
OK. So in the phrase "global warming", "global" means only in certain areas and "warming" means "sometimes the temperatures go down over a period of years and sometimes decades".

Now it all makes sense.

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#377043 - 01/11/08 08:07 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

OK. So in the phrase "global warming", "global" means only in certain areas and "warming" means "sometimes the temperatures go down over a period of years and sometimes decades".

Now it all makes sense.




I don't really buy it either.
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#377044 - 01/11/08 08:47 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Jim,
what is hilarious in this debate is that the crux of the argument always gets to the melting of the polar ice cap. Well, the good news is that the polar ice cap has always melted and refrozen.. the bad news for the global warming crowd is that the polar ice cap is continuing to melt and refreeze.

I've probably said this ten times on this thread, but the temperature calculations quoted as the "reason" for global warming were off by a factor of 100. The number should have been .03 to .05 degrees... not 3 to 5 degrees... and these "global warming geniuses" are too proud or too stupid to admit the mistake.... but of course, they couldn't sell you any "carbon credits" if they did that...

As for "local global warming", when I lived in New Orleans, I had a friend that was from Canada who worked with us. He would bet people anytime during the winter that the temperature in Vancouver Island was warmer than the temperature in New Orleans... and he won the bet about 75% of the time... It seems the gulf stream turns right there, so unless an unusual high pressure pushes it further south, it turns almost over the top of Vancouver. I can't tell you how many free drinks we got from that...

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#377045 - 01/11/08 09:02 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Also, as the Polar Ice Cap is currently receding, there is an increase in Antarctic Ice.
I also read an article not too long ago about increases in ice in Sweden. There is so much new ice that there is concern that herds of reindeer will starve because there'snot enough food.

Overall, since "global warming" has started, we have seen a net increase in ice around the world.

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#377046 - 01/11/08 09:46 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
would you be up for a 'global freezing' debate then?

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#377047 - 01/11/08 09:48 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Whatever is happening in the media it's BAD and we are all supposed to be scared to death over it.

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#377048 - 01/11/08 11:10 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
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Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

would you be up for a 'global freezing' debate then?



Why not. It's happened before a number of times and will happen again.

There was the "major" ice age and a number of mini ice ages over the course of earth's history. Jut as there have been warmings. Just look back to the 1930's and the "dust bowl days". Then from the mid-late 30's through the 70's temps went back down.

In the mid 1970's we were warned of the coming ice age that was being caused by pollution. Scientists then wanted to push large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere to melt the polar ice cap to raise temperatures.

No one is denying that climate changes and is changing now. What is being said is that the climate always has changed and always will and that it is not controlled by man. Climate goes through natural cycles.

It is only the pro-global warming side that chooses not only to ignore science and facts but to go as far as to lie about science in order to make thier point.

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#377049 - 01/11/08 11:14 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Whatever is happening in the media it's BAD and we are all supposed to be scared to death over it.




How true...

The current "mortgage crisis" is another one of those "chicken little" situations. 96 percent of the people paying mortgages are making their payments on time... which leaves 4 percent of bad loans out there. Now, who is "invested" in those loans?... it's companies who are getting fees for "helping people get mortgages" that wouldn't ordinarily qualify for mortgages... why wouldn't they qualify... they can't make the payments... so it's a "given" that if you get them a mortgage, eventually, they won't be able to pay it... duh! So this "crisis" is the money markets squealing that they've done some "bad business" and are getting stung by people who they knew couldn't make the payments in the first place...

They're looking for a government bailout now, so let me give you an analogy...

I know if I cut the radiator hoses on my car, eventually the engine will run hot... but I go ahead and cut them. Sure enough, I go down the road and the engine overheats... and it's a crisis, because I need to have my car running to go places... so I call my rich uncle and tell him to send somebody over to fix my car because I have places to go.

There's nothing to keep me from cutting the hoses again... and creating exactly the same situation all over again, but, of course, good old Uncle Sam bails me out and gets me running again. Turns out that he has to raise his prices right after that to pay for all that help he sent me...

Biggest scam on the planet... global warming

2nd biggest scam on the planet... the mortgage bailout...

3rd will be whateve the news media can create...

Quick, go tell Henny Penny and Goosey Loosey....

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#377050 - 01/11/08 11:58 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
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SARS is going to kill us!!!! RUN!!!

No wait,it's the SUPERBUG!!!! AHHHHHH!!!! HELP!!!

WAIT...ANTHRAX is rampant!!!!!!

BIRDFLU!!!!!! MORTGAGE RATES!!!! GAS PRICES WILL REACH $5 A GALLON!!!

Al Quida is going to get us!!!! The Mexicans are taking over!!!!!!! GLOBAL WARMING...AHHHHH!!!!!

OH NO!!!! AN ASTERIOD IS GOING TO HIT US RREEEEAAALLLLL SOOOOOONNNN!!!!!!

Drink bottled water...the tap stuff will give you CANCER, gingivitus, scours, etc....!!!!! runnnnnnnn.....THE internet is going to crash!!!!!

THE SUN IS GOING TO EXPLODE!!!!! Half the population is moving to mars!!!



Well, I think I've had enough with being scared to death by the media and politicians. They can all kiss my ass.
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#377051 - 01/12/08 12:55 AM A related issue [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Article
New Solar Activity Is Trouble for GPS, Cell Phones & Power Companies

"Sunspots are areas of intense magnetic activity on the sun that appear on roughly an 11-year cycle. The location and characteristics of Sunspot No. 10,981 tell scientists that the newest cycle -- known as Solar Cycle 24 -- has begun. The solar activity can release tremendous blasts of energy toward Earth -- interfering with an array of sensitive electronic systems."


I wonder if these "tremendous blasts of energy" from the sun might spike the temperature a little bit?

If I recall my 3rd grade science correctly, heat from the sun warms the earth. Or it could be that my 3rd grade teacher was a republican who secretly worked for the oil companies and lied to me about that.

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#377052 - 01/12/08 12:56 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
lol

hey you forgot the evil aliens taking over the planet. see, we should have funded Reagan's 'star wars' program in the 80's. it would have cost les than the Iraq war.



I'm not into hype to push agenda, I just think the 'not eating where you crap' guidline applies.

regardless of all the hoopla, junk science and political wannabes - spewing less crap into air, water or earth is better than spewing more crap into air,water and earth. period.

common sense: don't crap where you eat.

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#377053 - 01/12/08 01:02 AM Re: A related issue [Re: JAMJTX]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Or it could be that my 3rd grade teacher was a republican who secretly worked for the oil companies and lied to me about that.


nah, more likely your republican family and/or friends or church duped you into the Bush agenda like wristtwister.

meanwhile, you guys are probably middle-class and getting screwed over....and voting for just the very things that are screwing you over. lol

wanna compare deficits at the end of republican administrations VS at the end of democrate ones? that would make an interesting and revealing discussion, wouldn't it?


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#377054 - 01/12/08 01:33 AM Re: A related issue [Re: Ed_Morris]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
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Ed,

So now your're denying that solar activity warms the earth? And you talk to us like we're idiots?

Clinton had the luxury of inheriting the Reagan economy. Despite his best efforts to screw the American people, the economy still stayed strong for most of his admin - thanks to a republican congress that restrained him/her. GWB later inherited the Clinton recession, as well as the weakened military, Osama Bin Laden, etc. etc, etc.

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#377055 - 01/12/08 07:22 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

common sense: don't crap where you eat.




There are over 6 billion of us, we cant do anything else but eat where we crap- unless you happen to live the outback of Australia of course.

Guys, the last 5 posts or so have moved away from environment + politics to pure politics. remember we have the PM function for that stuff, lets bring it back on topic please
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#377056 - 01/12/08 09:41 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

OK. So in the phrase "global warming", "global" means only in certain areas and "warming" means "sometimes the temperatures go down over a period of years and sometimes decades".

Now it all makes sense.




glob·al (gl&#333;'b&#601;l) Pronunciation Key
adj.
1) Having the shape of a globe; spherical.
2) Of, relating to, or involving the entire earth; worldwide: global war; global monetary policies.
3) Comprehensive; total: "a . . . global, generalized sense of loss" (Maggie Scarf).

4) Computer Science: Of or relating to an entire program, document, or file.

We can get pedantic if you wish to go there.
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#377057 - 01/12/08 09:49 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

What is being said is that the climate always has changed and always will and that it is not controlled by man. Climate goes through natural cycles.




But this appears to be related to man's activities, and in a manner not consistent with past cycles.

Quote:

It is only the pro-global warming side that chooses not only to ignore science and facts but to go as far as to lie about science in order to make thier point.




Now you are just being...difficult.

There you go Matt. Fixed that for you.


Edited by RazorFoot (01/14/08 02:31 PM)
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#377058 - 01/12/08 10:02 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

The current "mortgage crisis" is another one of those "chicken little" situations. 96 percent of the people paying mortgages are making their payments on time... which leaves 4 percent of bad loans out there.




Funny. That 4% is enough to cause Countrywide Mortgage to almost go into bankruptcy. Several other large banks have had HUGE losses related to the 4%. Seems that little, inconsequential things can have a big effect. Or maybe it's just the media.

Quote:

I know if I cut the radiator hoses on my car, eventually the engine will run hot... but I go ahead and cut them. Sure enough, I go down the road and the engine overheats... and it's a crisis, because I need to have my car running to go places... so I call my rich uncle and tell him to send somebody over to fix my car because I have places to go.

There's nothing to keep me from cutting the hoses again... and creating exactly the same situation all over again, but, of course, good old Uncle Sam bails me out and gets me running again. Turns out that he has to raise his prices right after that to pay for all that help he sent me...




That is actually a good anaolgy for the GW situation. This is why we need someone to help us stop cutting the hoses in the first place.

Quote:

Biggest scam on the planet... global warming

2nd biggest scam on the planet... the mortgage bailout...




So, anything that that you don't like is a scam?
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#377059 - 01/12/08 12:01 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

would you be up for a 'global freezing' debate then?



Why not. It's happened before a number of times and will happen again.


In the mid 1970's we were warned of the coming ice age that was being caused by pollution. Scientists then wanted to push large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere to melt the polar ice cap to raise temperatures.




Huh? Care to explain that one?
Quote:


No one is denying that climate changes and is changing now. What is being said is that the climate always has changed and always will and that it is not controlled by man. Climate goes through natural cycles.





yeah....
Quote:


It is only the pro-global warming side that chooses not only to ignore science and facts but to go as far as to lie about science in order to make thier point.






Which part do you think they lied about?
Who lied? Who in the global warning side?

Jude

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#377060 - 01/12/08 12:15 PM Re: A related issue [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Hold on there Ed...

Quote:

nah, more likely your republican family and/or friends or church duped you into the Bush agenda like wristtwister.




In the first place, I think Bush has done a mediocre job as president at best, and has totally abandoned what he was elected to do... so if you think I'm one of his "kool aid drinkers", you're dead wrong. My whole neighborhood is overrun with illegals because neither he or your buddy Bill "I did not have sex with that woman" Clinton haven't done their jobs... so don't start throwing $**t my way over Bush. Global warming and the GW panacea has nothing to do with him... it's junk science and extrapolations from pi$$ poor math skills driving it... Your lefty buddies, like Al Bore have played the Chicken Little theory of leftist politics like a violin... and now all you "feeling, caring" people are scattering like chickens over another imagined problem.

I agree that we don't want to spew more pollution into the air... but I'm not going to a bicycle to get groceries either, while your buddy Al flies all over the world on a 747 trying to scare everybody into cowering masses who are afraid to drop a gum wrapper because to them it signals the end of civilization. Scare tactics don't really work on me... but facts help... just not "made up facts" like the "science" of the global warming crowd.

Matt...
Quote:

So, anything that that you don't like is a scam?




No, but things that are sold to the public with skewed information are. Every good scam artist has a smoothe line, and a believable story, or else they wouldn't be able to scam anybody. When you drill down past the B-S, and look at facts, you get a different picture.

By the way, when the "media" picks up a mantra, you can follow the language and find their "talking points"... it will be the same phrases used in every newscast on almost every station... the same words to drive their agenda show up in every broadcast.

Do you know the difference between "news reporter" boots and cowboy boots?... the cowboy boots are the ones with the bull$hit on the OUTSIDE of them...

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#377061 - 01/12/08 12:21 PM Re: A related issue [Re: JAMJTX]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
JAMJTX,

Quote:

New Solar Activity Is Trouble for GPS, Cell Phones & Power Companies




This isn't new... it's a yearly occurance between the end of August and middle of October every year. What this article probably is pointing out is a spike in it. I work in the cable business, and signal interruptions from solar flares are known to interrupt signal transmissions. It isn't advertised much, but it's not uncommon... it's expected.

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#377062 - 01/12/08 12:38 PM Re: A related issue [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

No, but things that are sold to the public with skewed information are. Every good scam artist has a smoothe line, and a believable story, or else they wouldn't be able to scam anybody. When you drill down past the B-S, and look at facts, you get a different picture.




Interested to see the Math errors that these large, multi-government-organized, peer-reviewed studies have in them. I guess it's because they weren't written by South Carolina Conservatives, huh? But the whole, ENTIRE rest of the world is supposed to think that this study is "BS".

http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/index.htm
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#377063 - 01/12/08 12:43 PM Re: A related issue [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

This isn't new... it's a yearly occurance between the end of August and middle of October every year. What this article probably is pointing out is a spike in it. I work in the cable business, and signal interruptions from solar flares are known to interrupt signal transmissions. It isn't advertised much, but it's not uncommon... it's expected.






Good point Grady. JAMJTX is forgetting that the sun's radiation output is from more than just the "heat" end of the EM spectrum.

http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/spaceweather.htm
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#377064 - 01/12/08 01:21 PM Re: A related issue [Re: MattJ]
cxt Offline
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Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Well of the errors is that CO2 etc graph does not really match the actual events.

We have no idea what caused the Little Ice Age nor what stopped it--but its a pretty good chance it was not man-made CO2 or man made pollutions---there were almost none at the times/time in question.

In the historical record CO2 changes--both up and down---are seperated by 100's sometimes 1000's of years in changes in temperture.

So the theory would seem to have at least "some" flaws.

Its not that don't see the value in consevation and making things as green as possible.

Its just that IMO the "evidence" is often mis-understood or faulty.

I was reading one guy recently that suggested that the anti-pollution campaigns of the last 40 years have done almost too good a job.

We have VASTLY reduces smog and airborne particulets---with the end result of more sunlight hitting the ground and thus a rise in temp.

Guy could as wrong as he could be---I didn't see his math---but its also possible that he has a point.

Global weather/temp is currently beyond most of our science--we don't understand it...not really.



Edited by cxt (01/12/08 01:23 PM)
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#377065 - 01/12/08 01:49 PM Re: A related issue [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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glad I'm wrong about you...oh and btw, I'm not as far left as your stereotyping paints either.


The related (and perhaps more important) issue to all of this is the burning of fossil fuel - there is not an endless supply. when should governments and people start implementing other ways? (not just going thru the motions by making 2% quotas of alternative fuel technology).

it's a real easy prediction, that has little to do with being able to 'prove' this or that - it's common sense that as populations and industry increases, there is only an upward trend of more demand for fossil fuel.

as fuel shortages become increasingly competitive, the intesity of war over them would increase. The wars it would create could make things alot messier than pollution problems. avoid global war or avoid global warming?

regardless of the reason why, we should get moving on burning less. I don't care if real science, junk science or christian science makes a case that people listen to, as long as the result is the same: an aggressive plan to phase out the use of non-renewable fuel.

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#377066 - 01/12/08 01:59 PM Re: A related issue [Re: cxt]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

We have no idea what caused the Little Ice Age nor what stopped it




http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/pastcc.html

Recent change data:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recentcc.html
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#377067 - 01/12/08 02:01 PM Re: A related issue [Re: cxt]
floatfishski Offline
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Loc: Danver for now.
That is the rub of this whole debate. Global warming is about implementing Marxist ideology, not fixing environmental problems. It is about forcing redistribution yet the unfortunate thing is, by doing so you destroy wealth production and therefore prosperity. The middle class isn't shrinking because we middle class types are falling into poverty (the per capita percentage of the poor hasn't gone up one iota). It's shrinking because we are making more money than we ever have. Screw that up by implementing the "cures" called for by the Branch AlGorevidians and watch the numbers of poor go up.

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#377068 - 01/12/08 02:11 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: JAMJTX]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
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Quote:

the bad news for the global warming crowd is that the polar ice cap is continuing to melt and refreeze.




I too find this a bit difficult to swallow, only because just a few months ago I saw an episode that was discussing the polar ice caps melting and showed a satalite video of the ice caps over time.

That video was supposed to show that the ice caps were disappearing, the only thing I could see was that they were changing shapes, smaller in some areas, bigger than others. Not exactly a convincing video. Over such a short video, if there was significant ice loss, it should have been very evident, especially if they are using that as proof.

Granted, I am all for protecting the environment, finding ways to recycle and reuse our garbage and keeping the air and water clean, etc.

Laura

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#377069 - 01/12/08 04:12 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: tkd_high_green]
JAMJTX Offline
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Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
"That video was supposed to show that the ice caps were disappearing, the only thing I could see was that they were changing shapes"

This is one of the lies coming from the global warming crowd. That the ice is disappearing. And that is simply not what is happening.

If you look at only a portion of the ice over a particular period of time, it may look to you like the ice is melting away. But if you look at ALL of the ice over a longer period of time, what you see is that the ice has just changed and maybe even grown.

My mind keeps turning back to the "drowning polar bear" scare, when they put out that photo of a young polar bear stranded on the last tiny piece of ice out in the ocean. This photo appeared on web sites, magazine covers and tv shows all around the world. Then it was proven that it was created using photoshop.

When you have to lie about the temperature, fake photos and manipulate videos to prove a point, maybe you just don't have a real point.

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#377070 - 01/12/08 04:23 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: tkd_high_green]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

That video was supposed to show that the ice caps were disappearing, the only thing I could see was that they were changing shapes, smaller in some areas, bigger than others. Not exactly a convincing video. Over such a short video, if there was significant ice loss, it should have been very evident, especially if they are using that as proof.




You weren't supposed to analyze what you saw... just swallow the bait and help tell people the sky is falling... Polar ice caps not only have "visible" ice floes that are in the seas, but ice flows below the surface of the ocean as well... Notice that they don't talk about the "depth" of the polar caps... only that they're "melting"... which they do constantly. They melt and re-freeze all the time.

My favorite "environmental impact" story was the one that "polar bears were being stranded on the ice floes"... then, after talking to polar bear experts, it turns out that they have been known to swim 200 miles... uh... not exactly stranded... on the ice floes... just hangin' out...

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#377071 - 01/12/08 06:11 PM Re: A related issue [Re: MattJ]
cxt Offline
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MattJ

But we still don't know what caused it or brought it to a halt----we can be failry sure that was was not mans doing....we had little cpacity to do so--the more so in view of todays claims of Co2/pollution.

The graphs don't tell the whole story---if I recall correctly--and there is always the chance I don't--the CO2 changes don't link up with the actual temp changes--they actually preceed them or follow them by 100's or even 1000's of years.

If its a "driver" instead of a side effect or after-effect or a concurrent effect, then its behaves rather oddly.
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#377072 - 01/13/08 09:36 AM Re: A related issue [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

glad I'm wrong about you...oh and btw, I'm not as far left as your stereotyping paints either.




Me too... and my sterotyping is more to the political bent of the "soap box" proponents than anything else, such as AlBore... Ingenuity will solve this problem, if it is truly a problem, not the government redistribution of wealth to more of the elites.

Quote:

it's a real easy prediction, that has little to do with being able to 'prove' this or that - it's common sense that as populations and industry increases, there is only an upward trend of more demand for fossil fuel.




That's where the "ingenuity" part of the equation is found... people will find alternate sources of energy to drive their industries and businesses... or create businesses to service that need... that's the way capitalism works. Right now, our economy and country in general is being overrun with foreign influence... international corporations driving the American sector who have no regard for American interests, only "their" country... and it's rampant throughout our society now. Like most other third world countries, the "businessmen" think that cheap labor is the best labor, and that's never been the American way. A smart labor force has been what fueled ingenuity, not somebody barely smart enough to read their paycheck or put the round peg in the round hole... it's been a history of thinkers and doers... not just doers... We've assigned the "smart" sector to computers and virtual tasks... so true ingenuity has fallen off the chart.

Quote:

as fuel shortages become increasingly competitive, the intesity of war over them would increase. The wars it would create could make things alot messier than pollution problems. avoid global war or avoid global warming?




There's a lot that can be done without wars being fought over oil... again, it goes back to ingenuity and redistribution of wealth. Look at the "drug war"... there is so much money involved in that fiasco that we'll never see the end of it. Why, because some other schlump will pick up on the "need" to supply drugs... no matter that it's illegal, dangerous, and killing people... there's money in it... so somebody will do it. It will take a societal change, not a law enforcement change to fix it. The rub comes in about "how"... and I sure as hell don't think "giving drugs away" will fix the problem... only create a bigger market for them... so it's complex... as are many of the issues of society now that political correctness has invaded the scene. Society used to be able to isolate "problem people", such as sex offenders, drug addicts, and criminals... but with political correctness, we're supposed to "welcome them into the family" and just deal with their problem. Ask a surgeon... cutting the tumor out is the way to fix the body... not "pet, cajole, and stroke" it, and society is our group "body". Whatever we allow to go on that's damaging it is causing it to fail.

On the political spectrum, we're more polarized on issues and ideas today than ever before in my lifetime... and the jealousy of people who accomplish is a driving force in that polarization. Personally, I've never had a poor person offer me a job, so I'm all for people getting as wealthy as they can... that fuels jobs and opportunity. Since government has to take something away from all of us to give it to a "poor person", then it's a net reduction in that wealth... so I'm not much of a proponent of welfare either. No need to go into all the reasons it's needed... I've heard them all, and dealt with the issues before... but when people are forced to find solutions rather than get a handout, they do... and while I have sympathy for people who can't produce or have health problems, they were once helped by family and community... not government.

I think that ingenuity is the answer to all these problems, and hopefully, somebody smart will tackle each issue and come up with an answer... or group with some smart people and find answers... Not scam them on the information, but find actual solutions.

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#377073 - 01/13/08 01:32 PM Re: A related issue [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
and wouldn't change as big as phasing out fossil fuel be initiated by regulations? strickter regulation of emmission standards led to car manufacturers and industry innovating built-in pollution reduction. we have catalytic converters and we don't see smoke stacks in every town. Had there been no government led inititives to deter pollution reduction - would industries and car manufacturers have changed all on their own? I don't think so.
The same mechanism is what would have to drive a change of this magnitude - tighten regulations, increase penalties for lag and encourage renwable solutions thru tax credits: so that it becomes profitable for auto and industry in general to innovate alternatives.

but what gets govenment moving? they don't just do things on their own either. that change comes from public pressure and voters. and what drives the public? crisis. people only create pressure when they are personally affected. Gas @ $3/gallon isn't enough. how about $6 per gallon? (which, btw, I hear thats the price of gas in Japan right now ~$1.50 per litre).

so let's say tomorrow, we wake up and it's $10/gallon and it stays at that level. Would the number one issue on the table in the next election be alternative energy or would it be how can we take over and control someone else's oilfields by convincing people they are evil and pursuing nuclear weapons? I wonder.

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#377074 - 01/13/08 04:16 PM Re: A related issue [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Gas @ $3/gallon isn't enough. how about $6 per gallon? (which, btw, I hear thats the price of gas in Japan right now ~$1.50 per litre).




Diesel in the UK is now the quivalent of $10 per gallon. Unleaded petrol runs at $2.10 per litre, and car use remains the same, because the 'green' tax money is not being invested directly in providing a suitable infrastructure of public transport to offer a viable alternative. Our trains range from unreliable to downright dangerous, and are hugely expensive (it is cheaper to fly from london to Birmingham than it is to take a train), and our bus services (with the possible exception of london) are a complete joke.
You cannot expect fiscal penalisation to work if people have nowhere to go in response to the deterent.
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#377075 - 01/13/08 04:37 PM Re: A related issue [Re: Cord]
JAMJTX Offline
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Most of the higher cost of gas in other countries is due to higher taxes. Which means that the prices are artifically inflated to begin with. They pay about the same price for oil.

Someone mentioned Japan. I don't think that the Japanese people drive less because of the price of gas. More likely there are several factors including the cost of cars, the cost of a place to park a car and the excellent train system they have. For the most part, there is no need to drive on a daily basis.
The times I spent in Japan, I was alwasy within an easy walking distance to a market. Here at home, I have to drive any time I want to run out and pick something up at a store. Our whole culture is built around driving, we can't do anything without a car. If I had to rely on government to pick me up and take me every place I wanted to go I would never get anything done. Going to the grocery store would be a 2 hour trip each way. Going to work would also be a 2 hour trip each way for the average person and most would be late every day.

If we added a $5 per gallon tax to gas, does anyone really think the government would use that money to improve public transportation?

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#377076 - 01/13/08 05:03 PM Re: A related issue [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
wow, ok what would happen if it was $100/litre? would things change, or would people just stop showing up for work?

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#377077 - 01/13/08 06:05 PM Re: A related issue [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
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You would create a thriving black market economy. It already happens here with 'red' diesel that is cheaper and sold in bulk to agricultural buisnesses- a lot of that gets sold on for road usage.
Up the stakes, increase the crime. It would be an equivalent situation to prohibition.
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#377078 - 01/14/08 02:35 PM Re: A related issue [Re: Cord]
RazorFoot Offline
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Registered: 12/01/04
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I was away for the weekend and some of the posts during that time seem a bit borderline (a little name calling and politics) but we seem to be back on track now. I am enjoying the debate so please stay within the rules so we can continue this discussion.
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#377079 - 01/14/08 07:28 PM Re: A related issue [Re: RazorFoot]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
If I crosed the line then I apologize. I freely admit that argument is verbal form of martial arts and I enjoy it. I hope that I offended no one and promise you that those who offered a different opinion than I hold did not offend me! I say this because I think one of my posts might have been the most political.

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#377080 - 01/14/08 07:31 PM Re: A related issue [Re: floatfishski]
MattJ Offline
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He was probably referring to me.
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#377081 - 01/14/08 10:04 PM Re: A related issue [Re: RazorFoot]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Razor,

I know it's unusual for all of us to agree, but this whole discussion has shown a lot of common ground for us even in disagreement. We disagree on the idea that global warming is a problem, that the science used as it's basis is flawed, and that the sky is falling because of it... but we've all agreed that it's not good to pollute or do things that hurt the planet and the people on it. Whether that's going on is where the debate is right now, and it's interesting...

I personally believe it's a scam, based on bad science, and has been using the "lefty" press to push the "Chicken little" theory out and scare the public. Others are swallowing it hook, line and sinker because the U.N. (and we all know how honest they are... ) has a committee that's recycling the same bad information from 50 different directions, but all coming from the same place.

Matt can't believe that I think what I do, and I can't believe that he swallows the bait and actually believes that it's factual... but all in all, it's been a friendly argument.

How'd that happen?

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#377082 - 01/15/08 08:42 AM Re: A related issue [Re: wristtwister]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I've no strong opinion one way or another on this GW issue as I live under the cool shade of a large tree or rather the house is. What I am more worry about (from the martial arts view point) is the reversing of the Earth's magnetic field which some scientists said has happened before a long time ago, presumably before there were martial artists or at least not that those scientists knew of.

My question to all you "global" experts (absolutely no sarcasm here whatsoever, none at all, not one tiny weeny bit) is -- will we all be doing our kata/forms in the reverse order when it happens?

Feel free not to answer if you do not know the answer.
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#377083 - 01/15/08 06:23 PM Re: A related issue [Re: ButterflyPalm]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
B-P,
kata remains kata... just don't do any jumped kicks... you'll never come down...

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#377084 - 01/15/08 11:45 PM Re: A related issue [Re: wristtwister]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

... you'll never come down...




...actually there would then be no "down"
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#377085 - 01/16/08 12:00 AM Re: A related issue [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I always wondered a similar question: does chi flow in the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere?

reiki, eyrie ? perhaps could help us out here.


wait...I may have asked the wrong question. in theory we can't end this thread until the third reich is mentioned.

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#377086 - 01/16/08 05:22 AM Re: A related issue [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I can't speak for Eyrie and Reiki, but I live right at the Equator and my chi flows in both directions
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#377087 - 01/17/08 03:17 PM Ice returns as Greenland temps plummet [Re: ButterflyPalm]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
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#377088 - 01/17/08 04:00 PM Re: Ice returns as Greenland temps plummet [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Jim, but how do you square that with all the other documented glacier melt going on? It seems you are trying to use exceptions to prove the rule.
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#377089 - 01/17/08 05:24 PM Re: Ice returns as Greenland temps plummet [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:

Jim, but how do you square that with all the other documented glacier melt going on? It seems you are trying to use exceptions to prove the rule.




Hi Matt.
It seems both can happen. Global warming and then extreme cold conditions . It would seem the weather is affected by so many different things. Just trying to make sense out of it is head spinning.
Quasi-biennial oscillation is one of the reasons thought for cold spells.

I still think humans should reduce the amount of pollution.




Jude

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#377090 - 01/17/08 05:29 PM Re: A related issue [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

... you'll never come down...




...actually there would then be no "down"




Still be down. From what I can see gravity would still be the same. So a person can do a jumping kick and return to Earth.
How they land might be another matter

Jude

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#377091 - 01/17/08 05:32 PM Re: A related issue [Re: jude33]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA

Just posted today....of it just got to me today.

The icecaps in Greenland are melting at rates never before seen.

Oddly the overall actually temp in the region is no warmer than it was during the 30s/40's.....according to the report I saw.

Couple of ways to look at the information of course.
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#377092 - 01/17/08 05:49 PM Re: A related issue [Re: cxt]
Cord Offline
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GLOBAL WARMING DID NOT EAT MY HOMEWORK
GLOBAL WARMING DID NOT EAT MY HOMEWORK
GLOBAL WARMING DID NOT EAT MY HOMEWORK
GLOBAL WARMING DID NOT EAT MY HOMEWORK
GLOBAL WARMING DID NOT EAT MY HOMEWORK

B. Simpson
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#377093 - 01/17/08 06:13 PM Re: A related issue [Re: cxt]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Just posted today....of it just got to me today.

The icecaps in Greenland are melting at rates never before seen.

Oddly the overall actually temp in the region is no warmer than it was during the 30s/40's.....according to the report I saw.

Couple of ways to look at the information of course.




It seems the South Pole is the same.
If the temp is correct were they melting in
the 30s 40s?
If not could it be the hole in the ozone allowing ultraviolet radiation through?
I have been just trying to read how ice caps form that is a science in itself.


Quote
Although the Greenland melt has increased during the 1992-2006 period, the melt was even higher in 1900s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. So there is no indication that the current melt is above natural climate variability. Of course people who look just on the 1990 to 2007 period "see" great melting acceleration and influence of carbon dioxide and anthropogenic climate change.
End of quote

Confusing stuff.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/17/08 06:37 PM)

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#377094 - 01/18/08 12:03 AM Re: Ice returns as Greenland temps plummet [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
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Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

Jim, but how do you square that with all the other documented glacier melt going on? It seems you are trying to use exceptions to prove the rule.




Worldwide, we have seen a net gain in ice. Some places have less but others have more. There are enough ice gains to offset the losses and then some.

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that Sweden has so much more ice that herds of reindeer are starving because they don't have food.

What we have is the gloabl warming alarmists "cherry picking" exceptions to prove the rule.

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#377095 - 01/18/08 07:51 AM Re: Ice returns as Greenland temps plummet [Re: JAMJTX]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
No what you have is multitudes of qualified experts looking at ALL the data and studies and reaching consensus, and a bunch of unqualified people deciding that they are qualified to judge the quality and motives of those same opinions.

This thread needs to end, it's not about a qualified look at scientific data, it's about a political view steeped in conspiracy theories and a general dislike for anything that even appears to be liberal.
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#377096 - 01/18/08 07:56 AM Re: Ice returns as Greenland temps plummet [Re: JAMJTX]
Blackrainbow Offline
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Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
What actually happened in Sweden was that they had an unusually wet snowfall. The wet snow then froze into solid ice. Reindeer survive the winter by eating lichens. When the snow turned to ice the animals could not get to the lichens which they usually reach by just pawing through the loose snow. Sweden had no more precipitation ice or otherwise than normal. In fact the wet snow was caused by unusually warm air masses for the season.
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#377097 - 01/18/08 09:43 AM GLOBAL WARMING [Re: Blackrainbow]
MattJ Offline
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OK, I must be missing something. JAMJTX is actually SUPPORTING that global warming is having negative environmental effects, even if localized ice melt is not one of the problems (ie; deer are dying from lack of food to unusual ice formation)?

That still seems like a bad thing to me, and a result of the global warming trend, right?

Even increase of ice at points is related to the warming trend:

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010100/a010152/index.html

"In a warming climate, both melting around the margins and precipitation in the interior increase, causing the ice sheet to grow in the middle and shrink at the edges."


But other studies do seem to indicate that ice loss is occuring:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7109/full/nature05168.html

http://www.newsvantage.com/perl/p/wed/ce...qy&g=tw.top

http://www.ocean.us/news
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#377098 - 01/18/08 10:26 AM Re: A related issue [Re: wristtwister]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
"No, but things that are sold to the public with skewed information are."

You mean, like the run-up to the Iraq war?

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#377099 - 01/18/08 10:42 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:

OK, I must be missing something. JAMJTX is actually SUPPORTING that global warming is having negative environmental effects, even if localized ice melt is not one of the problems (ie; deer are dying from lack of food to unusual ice formation)?

That still seems like a bad thing to me, and a result of the global warming trend, right?

Even increase of ice at points is related to the warming trend:

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010100/a010152/index.html

"In a warming climate, both melting around the margins and precipitation in the interior increase, causing the ice sheet to grow in the middle and shrink at the edges."


But other studies do seem to indicate that ice loss is occuring:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7109/full/nature05168.html

http://www.newsvantage.com/perl/p/wed/ce...qy&g=tw.top

http://www.ocean.us/news




Localized ice loss is occurring. There is no doubt about that. What there is also no doubt about is that there is no reason to be alarmed about it. It's part of a natural cycle and it will come back. Just as it always has.

Warming is not causing ice increaes in other areas. It is getting colder in other areas, thus more freezing. Warming does not cause ice - freezing does. That's why we make ice cubes in freezers and not in ovens.

What I have been pointing out in my posts is how science disproves the "threat of global warming".

Climate change has always occurred and has always had negative effects. Plants and animals die off. Maybe even people. The geography changes and other things dissappear as well.

But there is also good that comes. In some places they are reporing new species of animals and plants. These could not come about without climate change.

Without change, our continent would not exists. There would be no Grand Canyon, no Yellowstone. There never would have been rain forest. All of the things that the "global warming crowd" are trying to preserve by trying to bring about an un-natural end to the natural cycles of climate change only exist because the climate changed in the past allowing them to come into existence.

If not for climate change, the North American continent would still be covered with glaciers and we would not have the rich farmland in the midwest.

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#377100 - 01/18/08 11:39 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: JAMJTX]
Blackrainbow Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
For all of those saying that the ice sheets are actually growing please post some proof. I have access to data that proves otherwise. Bring up a satellite pic of either pole or the Greenland ice sheet spanning the past 10 years and the proof just jumps out in your face. All of the major glaciers in Europe many which the people depend on for drinking water are almost gone. Same in the Andes. Same in the U.S. And how is that ice being replentished since snowfall in these areas are at altime record lows. The snow is not falling and where it is it's the wrong type of snow. Yes there are different types of snow. Even in the Himalayas the snow and ice are going bye bye and villages that have been standing for over 2500 years are going to be deserted because of lack of water. Where is there more ice? I have a satellite pic up on the monitor right now of a piece of the Anarctic ice sheet the size of a small country that recently broke off. Of course this has all happened before. And there are a lot of factors contributing to the changes now. For one thing we are actually just coming to the end of the last ice age. It ain't quite over just yet so we are warming. Also, volcanic activity is now at the highest level it has been in thousands of years. Yes we can check on these things. It's not at all hard to do so. But there is no way that anyone can say that having billions of humans pumping out billions of tons of pollutants has no effect. The fact that it is a natural process is no comfort to me. There have been many mass extinctions that have occured during the earths history for many reasons. But this is the first time in the history of the planet that any animal species on the planet has had the power to effect such change. The Grand Canyon took hundreds of millions of years to create. But the scientific data shows that although this is indeed a natural process that has occured before it is happening way too fast this time. Death is a perfectly natural event in every human life too. So if you get sick and there is a cure do you just ignore the cure and throw up your hands and say "oh well, lets just let nature take it's course"? We may not be able to stop the natural processes that are warming the earth. But why not clean up our act and at least not speed up the process? The technology is there. Most of it is old technology. But the corporate greed driving the worlds economy is not going to be easily dealt with. The U.S. economy is in a shambles and we are going to drag down the rest of the world when our economy collapses. The people driving this runaway train flat out don't care. They are mostly greedy and corrupt old men who are just living for today. Until the everyday ordinary people rise up in rightous indignation and scream "stop" and take back their lives things will continue on a downhill slide to extinction. The chances of a worldwide human revolution is slim and none. We are a unique species. We are absolute geniouses at making war but low leval idiots when it comes to making peace. We are a predatory species. We are natural born killers. And we don't really care too much who or what we kill as long as there is a profit to be made from it.
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#377101 - 01/18/08 03:15 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: Blackrainbow]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
I don't know what this "data" is that you have access to but it isn't accurate. So let's start with this;

Davis, C.H., et al., 2005. Snowfall-driven growth in East Antarctic ice sheet mitigates recent sea-level rise. SciencExpress, May 19, 2005.
[1] Raper, S. C. B., and R. J. Braithwaite, 8 March 2005, "The potential for sea level rise: New estimates from glacier and ice cap area and volume distributions," Geophysical Research Letters, 32:L05502.
[2] National Snow and Ice Data Center, 14 March 2005, "State of the cryosphere: Is the cryosphere sending signals about climate change?", NSIDC, on line [http://nsidc.org/sotc/glacier_balance.html].
[3] Dyurgerov, M., 2002, "Glacier mass balance and regime: Data of measurements and analysis," Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research, on line [http://instaar.colorado.edu/other/occ_papers.html].
[4] Dyurgerov, M. B., and M. F. Meier, 2005, "Glaciers and the changing earth system: A 2004 snapshot," Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research, on line [http://instaar.colorado.edu/other/occ_papers.html].
[5] U.S. Geological Survey, 31 Jan. 2000, "Sea level and climate," USGS, on line [http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs2-00/].
[6] Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2001, Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis, section 11.2, on line [http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/].
[7] Greve, R., 2000, "On the response of the Greenland Ice Sheet to greenhouse climate change," Climatic Change, 46:289-303 [http://hgxpro1.lowtem.hokudai.ac.jp/~greve/publist.html].
[8] Hulbe, C. L., 11 April 1997, "Recent changes to Antarctic Peninsula ice shelves: What lessons have been learned?", on line [http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-06/ns_clh.html].
[9] Bamber, J. L., R. L. Layberry, S. P. Gogenini, 2001, "A new ice thickness and bedrock dataset for the Greenland ice sheet 1: Measurement, data reduction, and errors," Journal of Geophysical Research, 106(D24):3177-3180 [http://nsidc.com/data/docs/daac/nsidc0092_greenland_ice_thickness.gd.html].
[10] Krabill, W. et al., 21 July 2000, "Greenland Ice Sheet: High-elevation balance and peripheral thinning," Science, 289:428-430.
[11] Johannessen, O. M., K. Khvorostovsky, M. W. Miles, and L. P. Bobylev, 11 Nov. 2005, "Recent ice-sheet growth in the interior of Greenland,", Science, 310:1013-1016.
[12] Box, J. E., and D. H. Bromwich, 26 Aug. 2004, "Greenland ice sheet surface mass balance 1991-2000: Application of Polar MM5 mesoscale model and in situ data," Journal of Geophysical Research, 109:D16105.
[13] Hanna, E., et al., 2005, "Runoff and mass balance of the Greenland ice sheet: 1958-2003," Journal of Geophysical Research, 110:D13108 [http://www.awi-bremerhaven.de/Publications/Han2005a_abstract.html].
[14] Velicogna, I., and J. Wahr, 30 Sept. 2005, "Greenland mass balance from GRACE," Geophysical Research Letters, 32:L18505.
[15] Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2001, Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis, section 11.2, on line [http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/].
[16] Goosse, H., R. Gerdes, F. Kauker, and C. Koberle, 2004, "Influence of the exchanges between the Atlantic and the Arctic on sea ice volume variations during the period 1955-97," Journal of Climate, 17:1294-1305.
[17] Linacre, E., and B. Geerts, July 1998, "The Arctic: the ocean, sea ice, icebergs, and climate," Univ. of Wyoming Dept. of Atmospheric Science, on line [http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap17/arctic.html].
[18] Lindsay, R. W., and J. Zhang, 2005, "The thinning of Arctic sea ice, 1988-2003: Have we passed a tipping point?", Journal of Climate, forthcoming [http://www.uwnews.org/relatedcontent/2005/September/rc_parentID12459_thisID12461.pdf].
[19] Lythe, M. B., D. G. Vaughan, and the BEDMAP Consortium, 10 June 2001, "BEDMAP: A new ice thickness and subglacial topographic model of Antarctica," Journal of Geophysical Research, 106:B6:11335-11351.
[20] Davis, C. H., Yonghong Li, J. R. McConnell, M. M. Frey, and E. Hanna, 24 June 2005, "Snowfall-driven growth in East Antarctic Ice Sheet mitigates recent sea-level rise," Science, 308:1898-1901.
[21] Cazenave, A., and R. S. Nerem, 2004, "Present-day sea level change: Observations and causes," Reviews of Geophysics, 42:RG3001.
[22] Thomas, R., et al., 8 Oct. 2004, "Accelerated sea-level rise from West Antarctica," Science, 306:255-258.
[23] Stone, J. O., et al., 3 Jan. 2003, "Holocene deglaciation of Marie Byrd Land, West Antarctica, Science, 299:99-102.
[24] Drewry, D. J., 1983, Antarctica: Glaciological and Geophysical Folio, Scott Polar Research Institute, Univ. of Cambridge.
[25] Sandhager, H., D. G. Vaughan, and A. Lambrecht, 2004, "Meteoric, marine and total ice thickness maps of Filchner-Ronne-Schelfeis, Antarctica," FRISP Report no. 15 on line [http://rai.ucsd.edu/~helen/Annals_2001/PDF/34A125_Padman_etal_2002_2col.pdf].
[26] British Antarctic Survey, 9 May 2000, "The loss of ice shelves from the Antarctic Peninsula," British Antarctic Survey, on line [http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/Key_Topics/IceSheet_SeaLevel/ice_shelf_loss.html].
[27] British Antarctic Survey, May 2005, "Antarctic Factsheet Geographical Statistics," British Antarctic Survey, on line [http://www.antarctica.ac.uk/Resources/schoolzone/resources/Factsheets/factsheet_geostats_screen.pdf].
[28] Geerts, B., June 1998, "Antarctic sea ice: seasonal and long-term changes," Univ. of Wyoming Dept. of Atmospheric Science, on line [http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap11/sea_ice.html].
[29] Rothrock, D. A., and J. Zhang, 4 Jan. 2005, "Arctic Ocean sea ice volume: What explains its recent depletion?," Journal of Geophysical Research, 110:C01002.
[30] Bassett, S. E., G. A. Milne, J. X. Mitrovica, and P. U. Clark, 5 Aug. 2005, "Ice sheet and solid earth influences on far-field sea-level histories," Science, 309:925-928.
[31] Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2001, Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis, section 11.5.4.3, on line [http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/].
[32] Jacobs, S. S., 5 Nov. 1992, "Is the Antarctic ice sheet growing?", Nature, 360:29-32.
[33] Sugden, D. E., 1996, "The East Antarctic Ice Sheet: unstable ice or unstable ideas?", Transactions of the Institute of British Geographers, 21:443-454.
[34] Alley, R. B., and I. M. Whillans, 15 Nov. 1991, "Changes in the West Antarctic Ice Sheet", Science, 254:959-962.

Also look at a study published in the Sept. 2006 American Meteorological Society's Journal of Climate that shows that the Hmalayan glaciers are growing.

There is also abundent data to show that glaciers are growing in Wahsington,France, and Switzerland. It is also clear that the Antarctic ice cap elevation is increasing meaning that it is getting thicker. Also a study by Harvard concluded that "we just don't know if the ice mass balance is growing or shrinking" due to the historical variability of the data.

The argument here is not about global warming, it's about the antropogenic forcing and frankly, the data supporting that forcing is not good science!

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#377102 - 01/18/08 03:15 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
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JAMJTX -

Quote:

Warming is not causing ice increaes in other areas. It is getting colder in other areas, thus more freezing. Warming does not cause ice - freezing does. That's why we make ice cubes in freezers and not in ovens.




Ehhhhh........

Freezing rain and ice CAN occur from warming temperatures. Freezing rain occurs from rain falling through warm air aloft, then freezing when it hits colder temps on the ground. If it was cold or freezing all the way down, it would be snow. So the fact that it is turning to ice, instead of snow, indicates WARMING - not freezing.

Can't see how you are missing the big picture.
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#377103 - 01/18/08 03:22 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
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floatfishski -

Quote:

There is also abundent data to show that glaciers are growing in Wahsington,France, and Switzerland. It is also clear that the Antarctic ice cap elevation is increasing meaning that it is getting thicker. Also a study by Harvard concluded that "we just don't know if the ice mass balance is growing or shrinking" due to the historical variability of the data.




I refer you to these that I posted earlier:

Quote:

Even increase of ice at points is related to the warming trend:

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010100/a010152/index.html

"In a warming climate, both melting around the margins and precipitation in the interior increase, causing the ice sheet to grow in the middle and shrink at the edges."


But other studies do seem to indicate that ice loss is occuring:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v443/n7109/full/nature05168.html

http://www.newsvantage.com/perl/p/wed/ce...qy&g=tw.top

http://www.ocean.us/news




Thicker ice at some points can still indicate a trend to loss.
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#377104 - 01/18/08 04:45 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: MattJ]
floatfishski Offline
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And that is the conundrum Matt. The issue isn't about global warming, it's about anthropogenic forcing. All indicators, all the data, inform us that we are but a very small contributor. So if we take the draconian measures prescribed by the alarmists we will do next to nothing to change the trend and do a great deal of harm to the people around us. Instead of piddling away good money after weak, and bad science, spend it on something with utility. Spend it on building reactors, fusion research, alternative fuels, etc.

There are two tacks to this discussion. The first is that there is no consensus, and being a scientist, I can tell you first hand that if you ever run into a bunch of scientist having a Stepford moment you better be seriously creeped out.

The second is that the data for anthropogenic forcing is marginal at best. Yet there are those who buy into it hook line and sinker. Then someone like myself comes along and wonders Hmmmm. All of a sudden my credentials mean nothing and I'm told that I'm not "qualified" to even comment on the subject. And most of the people who tell me this would fail my class in physical chemistry. The members of the church Branch AlGorevidians pontificate in absolutes yet science isn't about absolutes. Even in the hard sciences we don't actually know anything. We believe it to be true based on probabilites. To use an analogy that is appropriate to this forum, a young martial artist believes that he/she has found the perfect art. A mature one realizes that "perfect" is in the eye of the beholder.

Be fascinated by the science, but do it from the perspective of what science is. Science is defined by, and progresses, far more because of it's failures than its successes. There are a number of ancillary and auxiliary issues here. I’ve seen nobody in this thread oppose environmental responsibility but only the fact that the science behind anthropogenic forcing of climate change isn’t even close to being settled.

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#377105 - 01/18/08 05:45 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: floatfishski]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
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Loc: South Carolina
I relate the global warming debate to someone who discovers that there are sunspots. There is science behind the fact that sunspots exist, but the actual ability to generate an effect on them is non-existant to minimal at best. Where they affect the electrical and electro-magnetic fields of the earth, they have an effect, but it's pretty predictable and well known in the areas of life where the effects are felt. Adjustments are made by those people affected, and the rest of humanity goes on without being alarmed or affected.

Enter the Al Gorvedians, and the mantra would be "sunspots are damaging the electromagnetic fields of the earth" (well known and accepted fact). If we don't do something NOW, all life as we know it is doomed, and the earth is going to have an electromagnetic shift that will destroy the universe. At that point, they will offer you "electromagnetic credits" so you can minimalize your effect on the earth's electromagnetic field, and all the good citizens can go home feeling good about themselves. All you evil people who continue to ignore the electromagnetic crisis and continue living your lives as you have in the past are the scourge of the earth, and should be chastised for your evil behavior.

There is concensus that sunspots affect the electromagnetic fields of the earth, but no single concensus on what those effects actually are... but those that oppose the Al Gorevidian patchwork science view of it's effects can be dismissed as "unknowledgeable", "pursuing the wrong hypothesis", or simply too stupid to see the forest for the trees.

Sound familiar...?

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#377106 - 01/18/08 06:24 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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I find your hypocrisy amusing. You talk about "patchwork" science in the IPCC report. But perhaps one of you can show me a comparably large, internationally supported and peer-reviewed analysis supporting your (minority) viewpoint that man is NOT affecting global warming, or that global warming is not having harmful effects.
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#377107 - 01/18/08 08:37 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
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Quote:

I find your hypocrisy amusing.




Glad it makes you happy.

Quote:

You talk about "patchwork" science in the IPCC report. But perhaps one of you can show me a comparably large, internationally supported and peer-reviewed analysis supporting your (minority) viewpoint that man is NOT affecting global warming, or that global warming is not having harmful effects.




No, but I did find an abstract about the editiorial policies that are quashing dissenting opinions of "peer review groups" in science and medicine, and guidelines of publishing "dissenting material" that kept it out of the journals and publications. The study was based on the analysis of 156 selected journals publishing landscape-related papers editorial policies, and an email survey of the editors of those publications. Almost all of the journal editors freely accepted articles that upheld the "peer group opinion", but discarded those dissenting...

In other words, if you're "one of the boys", your articles get published... if not, it doesn't matter what your opinion is. The question of bias against integrative papers by editors, reviewers, and authors suggest some reasons why publishing contrary integrative research can be difficult. They found no bias against publishing integrative landscape papers., and the editors welcomed papers agreeing with the viewpoint held by the peer review groups.

Keeping the dissenting view off the charts is a sure way to make the charts say what you want. Controlling the debate is how the chicken little theory has always worked...

Think about it for a minute... you hear about "global warming"... the report is from the IPCC, so it's a "science peer group"... Not really, it's a United Nations political committee. Everywhere you hear about "climate change" and "global warming", the information can be traced right back to that same place.

Now, I've got 15 years in environmental engineering experience, cleaning up exactly what is supposed to be causing all these problems... but the science from that side is completely different. We changed chemical elements into inert, non-reactive agents which might have changed a chemical structure locally, but had little or no chance of globally affecting the environment.

Like the great "ozone hole" fiasco, where "scientists" were claiming there was a hole in the ozone layer until it leaked out that the "holes" were at the north and south poles, where there are no trees to generate ozone... Then, suddenly, the papers went silent and the "greenhouse gas threat" changed the tactics to begin promoting the "global warming" theory.

First, the greenhouse gases were killing the planet. Then, there was a hole in the ozone layer. Then, mankind was generating so much pollution that it was causing global warming... when the science of global warming was found faulty, the debate changes to "climate change"...

Peer review my a$$... it's politics, pure and simple... another "power grab" by the Chicken Little crowd who've been trying to sell this same crap for the last 50 years. If the science was all that sound, why hasn't any research been done into alternative fuels? The arguments have been raging since the 1960's when I was in college... which is where the "treehugger" tag started. Back then, they were surrounding the trees and shackling themselves together to keep the evil lumber industry from cutting down trees... and the "science" was that "all animal life was being destroyed"...

Turned out that only the animals that lived in the trees were affected, the other animals migrated into the spaces cleared by the clear-cutting, and the animals who were affected moved to places where they could find trees. Nature has a way of healing itself, and if mankind is in fact killing itself, then it will die. Species come and go all the time, and there's no guarantee that anything being proposed by the global warming crowd is going to keep the same climate changes from happening. Where's that science?

Feel free to laugh at my opinion, disagree with it, or consider it hypocrisy... but it's consistent... I still think that "global warming" is nothing more than a well developed scam, and it's being used as the latest in a long line of "chicken little" scenarios going back decades...

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#377108 - 01/18/08 09:44 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

when the science of global warming was found faulty, the debate changes to "climate change"...


Amen and hallelujah! There's money to be made in gloom and doom prophesies. It's all a money-grabbing agenda. Right now, we're having the same issues with the drought and water resource management, which somehow got tied to "climate change". Resulting in government and private enterprise moving in to control water allocation for irrigation and institute a "water trading" scheme for the people it will hurt the most - the farmers. As if they're not already hurting enough from the current climate conditions.

Funny, the worst culprits of water mismanagement are heavy industries like the AUTOMOTIVE industry that seem to be immune from such draconian impositions.

IOW, the whole "climate change" issue is a convenient distraction from the fundmanetal issue of socio-economic mismanagement, as America now heads into a recession....

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#377109 - 01/18/08 10:34 PM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: floatfishski]
Blackrainbow Offline
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Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
Actually my data is quite accurate. Thousands of satellite images taken over the past 20 years in both high resolution optical, infra red, ultraviolet and also narrow band radar images. I have two sons in the military both in Mi and the younger one is a remote sensing specialist as I was in the army. In my day we didn't have fancy satellites and relied on high altitude photography. But I still have the skills to interpret what my eyes and training tell me. I have also read many of the studies you posted. I find some convincing and some not so much. Read my post again. I never said man alone was responsible for climate change. But anyone who believes that a couple of billion people pouring billions of tons of pollutants into the environment is doing no harm is living in a dream world. Your own home would be a good example. Wrap it up in visqueen and put four or five people in it for about a week with no outside venting. Its not just about global warming> It's about all of the cumulative damage we are going.I live a stones throw from the greatest sport fishing area in the world. I love to fish. But I throw back most of what I catch because most of the species I catch are so loaded with mercury they are not safe to eat. The mercury got into the food chain from coal burning power plants using low grade soft coals. My grandfather was a coal miner in Alabama. He and the rest of my family lived in a mining camp in a town called Nyota. I have been back there on many occasions because it is a great area to hunt fossils. The whole area is so dangerously poluted with heavy metals and contaminants from the mining process that exposing your bare skin to the soil or water puts your very life at risk. There are actually people living on the site. Most of them illegally. The land belongs to CSX railway now and has beenup for sale for over 60 years. But the only water in the area would be well water. You can't drink it because it is loaded with mercury, arsenic and a witches brew of other dangerous chemicals. I'm no tree hugger. But I am a medical professional and a cancer survivor and I don't need the Nobel Institute and a bunch of PHD's who work for big industry to try to convince me that all of this stuff in the environment is harmless. I also have agent orange in my body fat. Not from my two tours in Vietnam but from swimming in the Ottowa river in Toledo Ohio. It seems that when I was a kid a large chemical firm called Dura corporation was dumping massive ammounts of the stuff as well as PCB's into the river and an adjacent dump. Yes I know it's a "global warming thread". But it's all about the same warped attitude that the actions of man have no effect on the planet. Horse crap.
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#377110 - 01/19/08 01:04 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: Blackrainbow]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Quote:

But it's all about the same warped attitude that the actions of man have no effect on the planet. Horse crap.



exactly. by having people concentrate on disputing 'global warming', it somehow grants licence for their irresponsibility and unaccountability. The logic goes something like: "If we show that the global warming theory is flawed, we don't have to impose more strict standards on industry."
Auto companies hate increacingly tough emission standards, and the oil industry's money flow depends on there not being an infustructure of a viable alternative. not to mention all the other industries hating to have to invest in expensive 'clean-technology' and/or heafty fines.

...it's much cheaper for them to buy into an administration and help plant the seeds of doubt and denial into public consciousness.

around 1992, Boston started a public works program in conjunction with MIT to start installing electric-auto recharging stations around town (Cambridge actually) at the city limit train station parking garages. I didn't need a car at the time, but everyday I took the train and saw these recharging stations installed, vacant, and rust. the problem: no car manufacturers getting involved. MIT and the city were gambling on the Clinton/Gore push to progressively increase electric/altenergy car quotas over time, by using government-led incentives. didn't happen. republican congress took over shortly after and decided to have the country concentrate who did what UNDER Bill's desk instead of concentrating on the work he was doing ON it. The whole thing was sh!t-canned and we were left questioning a blue dress. talk about a country with A.D.D....

so now we have alot more distractions to keep us busy and keep the alternative car quotas at a stead-fast 2%. The 2% is just so people can say we have them - but there has never been any serious plan to ever increase that. It's always been 2% or less.

Clearly, the special interest lobbyists with blank checks have much more say in such matters. I'm pretty sure the way it's suppossed to work is: 1 person, 1 vote...but the way it has been working is: 1 dollar, 1 vote.

The biggest threat right now is runaway unacountable corruption. The system is broken....and that tends to cause actions of man which mother nature CANNOT heal.

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#377111 - 01/19/08 01:14 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: Blackrainbow]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I just wish this whole thing can be settled with an "agree to disagree" like in the "chi" debates.

But my daughter is only 17 and she will run smack into it (whatever it is or is not) when she and her children comes around.

So now, do we or do we not, at this juncture of our lives and the live of the Planet, abandon all industrial activities and go back to the goode olde dayes when we wore cotton spun by hand, plates made of stones carved out with stone hand tools and eat our own-grown vegetables and true free-range chickens? And of course hone up on our martial arts skills as other people who do not have these things will raid our homes for them.

I am sure we can't and not being a scientists and therefore cannot offer a meaningful scientific opinion, but whatever is said of the alarmists and how they are or maybe feeding (for whatever hidden agenda) on a sense of doom spread among the untutored public, my concern is (since at this very moment opinion is divided) what if they are right? If the 'dissenters' are right, then we are all safe anyway, but what if the alarmists, even if by fluke, turn out to be right? --- then mankind will perish due to a cosmic joke. I have no intention to die laughing.


Edited by ButterflyPalm (01/19/08 01:21 AM)
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#377112 - 01/19/08 08:10 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: Blackrainbow]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

But anyone who believes that a couple of billion people pouring billions of tons of pollutants into the environment is doing no harm is living in a dream world.




I don't think anyone interested in the planet has that lack of concern, and no one on the thread is advising the lack of pollution control. As I said several times, in 15 years of environmental engineering practice, we stopped hundreds of millions of pounds of pollution and greenhouse gas pollutants... and it didn't stop just because I changed businesses. Yes, there are polluters, and yes, there are some people who are damaging the environment... but like your local polluter, it's reasonably localized. We have a PCB lake of our own around here, and while it's a sportfishing haven, the fish aren't safe to eat. Without draining the lake and shutting down the power plant it drives, there's no way to clean it up. Unless a water driven power plant is also a threat to the environment, then it's not going to happen. The upper lake isn't contaminated, so you simply have to watch where you fish.

Quote:

But it's all about the same warped attitude that the actions of man have no effect on the planet.




I don't think anybody is making that claim, or expressing that attitude. We all realize that pollution is a problem... but it's not the global panacea that's changing the face of the world. It's a localized problem, and when it occurs, the local authorities should land on the offenders with both feet.

Sorry to hear about your physical problems. That truly is the measure of the damage being done by these criminals, and I hope it works out for you.

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#377113 - 01/19/08 09:06 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
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Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

mankind will perish




The only irrefutable fact on this whole thread. Even if we were pollutant free, cholestorol free, drug free, war free, disaster free, genuinely 'free'- Mankind will be phased out as the world turns. Our technology, and our 'mastery' of our world is an illusion. We havent been on this planet for a blink of an eye in cosmic terms, and we will be longer extinct than in existence. I find that quite comforting.
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#377114 - 01/19/08 10:11 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
well...there is always Mars

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#377115 - 01/19/08 10:12 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
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Cord -

Not disputing our imminent species demise, either. In my mind however, it's more about what are we leaving the future generations. Whether you or I procreate or not, others will. And the world that is left to them, in large measure, depends on what the current generation does with it. Do we use our technology to make the environment better for them? Or simply make it easier on us?

Sure, I would love to drive a Corvette ZR1 (or whatever), paying less for gasoline than for water. But I'm not willing to mortgage the entire well-being of future generations for my selfishness.

And despite how that may read, I am far from a tree-hugger.
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#377116 - 01/19/08 11:49 AM Re: GLOBAL WARMING [Re: MattJ]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Cord -

Not disputing our imminent species demise, either. In my mind however, it's more about what are we leaving the future generations.




We are leaving them exactly what we inherited, an ever changing orb rotating around a dying star. What happens to it/upon it will involve hundreds of thousands of years evolution after mankind has run its course, then it will die as the sun fizzles out.
Happy new year.
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#377117 - 01/19/08 02:55 PM It's cold here [Re: Cord]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I found this kind of amusing.
It's bitter cold here in Fort Wayne. It been hovering in the teens for a couple of day now. Maybe warming up a little over 20 some times.

I was watching the local news and after the weather report the anchor was shocked that it was so cold. She asked the "weatherman" if there was any explaination for this "cold snap". My first thought was "DUH! It's winter".
But he was at a loss to explain it. He just basically said "it's just unseasonably cold".

I know he is a "weatherman", basically just a model who can read - and not a "meteorologist".

But I really think it's just the global warming madness that has pushed people so far over the edge that they can't even explain why it's not warm in the winter any more and they all cold in January "unseasonal". It's funny, but at the same time quite sad.

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#377118 - 01/19/08 04:47 PM Re: It's cold here [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
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JAMJTX -

........and it's been usually warm here on the east coast.
As I have said before, the IPCC findings are not meant to be a local weather report for you. The IPCC report does not say that every day will be warmer than the next, nor that anywhere on earth will never experience cold again. The fact that it is cold in Indiana on a Saturday does not negate the overall findings of the report.

Amazing how people will look no further than their backyard when discussing a report with world-wide findings. But given the current administration in America, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Cord -

Again, not disputing that life on earth will end at some point in the future. HOWEVER , between now and then, perhaps we should pay some mind to the world that future generations will have to live with in the interim.
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#377119 - 01/19/08 05:05 PM Re: It's cold here [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Matt,

You missed what I said.
What I said was that it should be expected to be cold in the winter. For a newcaster and a "weatherman" to be perplexed by the cold and not be able to explain why it's cold in the winter is ridiculous. The "global warming" hysteria has pushed these morons so far over the edge, that they think that don't even know why it still gets cold in the winter.

I also never said that the IPCC findings were supposed to be a locla report. You said I said that. What I said about them is that they are 1) wrong 2) based on junk science 3) they ignore the big picture of global weather, ice increases etc, to paint a picture that supports the political agenda of those that fund the studies.

In order to accept the notion of "global warming" you have to consider the "globe" to only include those places that are experiencing some ice melting or unusual warmth. Or to put in your terms, you have to look at the IPCC data as a local weather report.

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#377120 - 01/20/08 08:11 AM Re: It's cold here [Re: JAMJTX]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Jim,
one of the problems with understanding science is that everybody seems to want it to be complicated to understand and simple to fix. When I did wastewater plant design, we had very specific information about the discharges into the streams, and sometimes the fix was as simple as planting a particular type of grass where the effluents flowed into the stream to remove them. What that did, was to cause the grasses to absorb something that would be a poisonous combination in the stream, but once absorbed into the grasses was inert as it mixed with the other elements of the grass.

Another method we used was to simply pave over chemical dump sites where controlling the amount of ground water going into the chemicals allowed them to leach out in safe amounts into the natural groundwater. Leaving them open to rainwater washed large amounts of ground chemicals into the streams... so while the fixes are sometimes simple, they are calculated and measured fixes that are specific to the kind of pollution being dealt with.

Other solutions we used were equally creative, but still based on the specific problem. We were always cognizant of the general weather patterns of the area, yearly rainfall amounts, etc... basic things that are "going to happen" in the normal climate of the area... just like using the "prevailing winds" to figure out the method of dealing with stack discharges for chemical plants.

Weather trends are pretty predictable, but just like anything else in science, there are anomolies, such as snow in the south, which is happening today, or unseasonable warm weather up north, which isn't right now. Attributing any particular single event of weather to "global change" is pure poppycock, as there are always anomolies. Hurricanes and tornados are anomolies of weather, but the conditions that create them are well known, and reasonably predictable... but even the "weather experts" get it wrong most of the time... like the 3 inches of snow that never got here yesterday.

Global warming and cooling trends have been going on since the earth formed, and will continue. None of them is the panacea that is being touted, for the weather is still "seasonably consistent" all over the world. Some changes happen, but that's why they keep "weather records" to measure the highs and lows.

We're having snow from Mississippi to North Carolina this weekend, but it's not the end of life as we know it... it's a seasonable anomolie where the right conditions created an event that I've seen in my lifetime many different times. Keeping your brain in when dealing with the weather is always a problem if you are an alarmist, and such things as "its cold in winter, and warm in summer" is easily lost if you are struggling to "blame" something for the anomolie.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#377121 - 01/21/08 03:16 AM Re: It's cold here [Re: wristtwister]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
You are touching on the principle of Occam's razor. It is also referred to a the law of parsimony or succinctness. And its basic tenant is that if all things are held equal, the simplest solution is usually the correct one. Another way to put it is that the function with the fewest assumptions in its derivation will usually be correct. Have we seen this type of warming before? The answer is of course yes. The argument for anthropogenic forcing is a construct of assumptions, leaps of faith. Because we have seen such warming, and perhaps to a greater degree in the past, chances are what caused it then is what is causing now. Even if, and I emphasize if, we were the primary cause of warming, we can do nothing to change it short or long term. Even if we cut CO2 production by 1/2 the hysteresis of the system prohibits any significant benefit from the corrective measures called for by Kyoto or other proposed solutions for multiple decades. There is not a switch, a thermostat that can be adjusted, that can be managed. And the proposed solutions are sophistic at best, and more accurately fall into the realm of casuistry.

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#377122 - 01/21/08 03:48 AM and to add to the discussion.... [Re: wristtwister]
floatfishski Offline
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Loc: Danver for now.


My Nobel Moment
By JOHN R. CHRISTY
November 1, 2007; Page A19

I've had a lot of fun recently with my tiny (and unofficial) slice of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize awarded to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). But, though I was one of thousands of IPCC participants, I don't think I will add "0.0001 Nobel Laureate" to my resume.

The other half of the prize was awarded to former Vice President Al Gore, whose carbon footprint would stomp my neighborhood flat. But that's another story.


Large icebergs in the Weddell Sea, Antarctica. Winter sea ice around the continent set a record maximum last month.
Both halves of the award honor promoting the message that Earth's temperature is rising due to human-based emissions of greenhouse gases. The Nobel committee praises Mr. Gore and the IPCC for alerting us to a potential catastrophe and for spurring us to a carbonless economy.

I'm sure the majority (but not all) of my IPCC colleagues cringe when I say this, but I see neither the developing catastrophe nor the smoking gun proving that human activity is to blame for most of the warming we see. Rather, I see a reliance on climate models (useful but never "proof") and the coincidence that changes in carbon dioxide and global temperatures have loose similarity over time.

There are some of us who remain so humbled by the task of measuring and understanding the extraordinarily complex climate system that we are skeptical of our ability to know what it is doing and why. As we build climate data sets from scratch and look into the guts of the climate system, however, we don't find the alarmist theory matching observations. (The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration satellite data we analyze at the University of Alabama in Huntsville does show modest warming -- around 2.5 degrees Fahrenheit per century, if current warming trends of 0.25 degrees per decade continue.)

It is my turn to cringe when I hear overstated-confidence from those who describe the projected evolution of global weather patterns over the next 100 years, especially when I consider how difficult it is to accurately predict that system's behavior over the next five days.

Mother Nature simply operates at a level of complexity that is, at this point, beyond the mastery of mere mortals (such as scientists) and the tools available to us. As my high-school physics teacher admonished us in those we-shall-conquer-the-world-with-a-slide-rule days, "Begin all of your scientific pronouncements with 'At our present level of ignorance, we think we know . . .'"

I haven't seen that type of climate humility lately. Rather I see jump-to-conclusions advocates and, unfortunately, some scientists who see in every weather anomaly the specter of a global-warming apocalypse. Explaining each successive phenomenon as a result of human action gives them comfort and an easy answer.

Others of us scratch our heads and try to understand the real causes behind what we see. We discount the possibility that everything is caused by human actions, because everything we've seen the climate do has happened before. Sea levels rise and fall continually. The Arctic ice cap has shrunk before. One millennium there are hippos swimming in the Thames, and a geological blink later there is an ice bridge linking Asia and North America.

One of the challenges in studying global climate is keeping a global perspective, especially when much of the research focuses on data gathered from spots around the globe. Often observations from one region get more attention than equally valid data from another.

The recent CNN report "Planet in Peril," for instance, spent considerable time discussing shrinking Arctic sea ice cover. CNN did not note that winter sea ice around Antarctica last month set a record maximum (yes, maximum) for coverage since aerial measurements started.

Then there is the challenge of translating global trends to local climate. For instance, hasn't global warming led to the five-year drought and fires in the U.S. Southwest?

Not necessarily.

There has been a drought, but it would be a stretch to link this drought to carbon dioxide. If you look at the 1,000-year climate record for the western U.S. you will see not five-year but 50-year-long droughts. The 12th and 13th centuries were particularly dry. The inconvenient truth is that the last century has been fairly benign in the American West. A return to the region's long-term "normal" climate would present huge challenges for urban planners.

Without a doubt, atmospheric carbon dioxide is increasing due primarily to carbon-based energy production (with its undisputed benefits to humanity) and many people ardently believe we must "do something" about its alleged consequence, global warming. This might seem like a legitimate concern given the potential disasters that are announced almost daily, so I've looked at a couple of ways in which humans might reduce CO2 emissions and their impact on temperatures.

California and some Northeastern states have decided to force their residents to buy cars that average 43 miles-per-gallon within the next decade. Even if you applied this law to the entire world, the net effect would reduce projected warming by about 0.05 degrees Fahrenheit by 2100, an amount so minuscule as to be undetectable. Global temperatures vary more than that from day to day.

Suppose you are very serious about making a dent in carbon emissions and could replace about 10% of the world's energy sources with non-CO2-emitting nuclear power by 2020 -- roughly equivalent to halving U.S. emissions. Based on IPCC-like projections, the required 1,000 new nuclear power plants would slow the warming by about 0.2 ?176 degrees Fahrenheit per century. It's a dent.

But what is the economic and human price, and what is it worth given the scientific uncertainty?

My experience as a missionary teacher in Africa opened my eyes to this simple fact: Without access to energy, life is brutal and short. The uncertain impacts of global warming far in the future must be weighed against disasters at our doorsteps today. Bjorn Lomborg's Copenhagen Consensus 2004, a cost-benefit analysis of health issues by leading economists (including three Nobelists), calculated that spending on health issues such as micronutrients for children, HIV/AIDS and water purification has benefits 50 to 200 times those of attempting to marginally limit "global warming."

Given the scientific uncertainty and our relative impotence regarding climate change, the moral imperative here seems clear to me.

Mr. Christy is director of the Earth System Science Center at the University of Alabama in Huntsville and a participant in the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, co-recipient of this year's Nobel Peace Prize.

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#377123 - 01/21/08 04:12 AM Re: It's cold here [Re: wristtwister]
floatfishski Offline
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And here is a link many might find informative.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p41.htm

Sorry if I'm over posting but I just took a contract to review/compile "global warming" data including the impacts of proposed solutions to economics for NREL and NCAR. Thought it would be pertinant and informative to this discussion.

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#377124 - 01/21/08 08:48 AM Re: It's cold here [Re: floatfishski]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
And to think we cancelled a BBQ last weekend. Can't you people make up your minds? A Nobel Prize is given to someone who says Planet Earth is just too complicated for us to understand and even if we do understand it, nothing can or should be done anyway because it's just too complicated?
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#377125 - 01/21/08 10:53 AM Fred Seitz is a liar [Re: floatfishski]
MattJ Offline
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*sound of buzzer*

FFS -

John Christy is a noted skeptic, and clearly (even by his own admission), the minority view in this matter:

Quote:

I'm sure the majority (but not all) of my IPCC colleagues cringe when I say this, but I see neither the developing catastrophe nor the smoking gun proving that human activity is to blame for most of the warming we see.




The minority view does not invalidate the majority, sorry.

Quote:

And here is a link many might find informative.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p41.htm







And Fred Seitz? Are you serious? This Fred Seitz? -

http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Seitz_Tobacco_Crimes.html

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=6

"Dr. Seitz is a former President of the National Academy of Sciences, but the Academy disassociated itself from Seitz in 1998 when Seitz headed up a report designed to look like an NAS journal article saying that carbon dioxide poses no threat to climate. The report, which was supposedly signed by 15,000 scientists, advocated the abandonment of the Kyoto Protocol. The NAS went to unusual lengths to publically distance itself from Seitz' article. Seitz signed the 1995 Leipzig Declaration."

So I am supposed to believe the former tobacco company exec on a report partially funded by Exxon?!



Try again, please.

PEOPLE, PLEASE STOP GETTING YOUR INFO FROM FOX NEWS AND THE LIKE. THEY LIE ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Again, show me another large, international, peer-reviewed study that disproves the IPCC.

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#377126 - 01/21/08 11:16 AM Re: It's cold here [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
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Matt,

Thanks for taking up the cause of rational thought, I stepped back from this thread for the most part because I just didn't think I could continue to be civil. The problem with this debate, and debate in general over the last 10-15 years is we have allowed the extremist to sit at the table as if they are equals.

In the movie Man of the Year Lou Black's character makes this point about a Holocost Survivor and a person who claims the Holocost never happened, sitting side by side as equals.

This example while extreme points out the fundemantal problem with News and information over the last 10-15 years. News has become entertainment, and intergrity has been cast aside for ratings. Fox is a station which has openly used propaganda as news. The rstings war has cause CNN to sink into entertainment news style. Leaving the public with no clear source of reporting and thus allowing all the extremist a seat at the news table.

I said this many pages ago, but I will say it again. There is no debate about Global Warming, has not been one for quite some time. It's not like Cal Tech says yes and MIT says no. All you have are a small group of people with clearly political motives trying to shout down what every serious person qualifed to have an opinion has agreed upon.

These are the facts, and they are undisputed.
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#377127 - 01/21/08 11:24 AM Re: Fred Seitz is a liar [Re: MattJ]
cxt Offline
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MattJ

In my utterly cynical world view---pretty much EVERYONE is suspect....not just Fox News.

Take Gore---is there any reason for him to take a given positon?
Sure, its brought him international fame, a Nobel prize and secured his legacy as someone that deeply "cares."
But we are expected to belive that NONE of that could possibly be effecting his judegment on the matter.

Guy does not live HIS life as if he really belived that global warming was going to be the death of us all----and he is a major player in the movement.

Gore did not start buying "carbon credits" until very recently----even if one accepts they they "work"---and that is a questionable assumption given that a good portion of the compaines claiming to do that have less than steller record in terms of performance----the man still lives a vastly "dirty" lifestyle in terms of consumption---well beyond that of the people that he is telling essentially to "cut back."

In my view its like a guy telling people to stop smokeing, trying to pass anti-smokeing legislation being a 2 pack a day smoker.

If you follow the money I think you will find that pretty much EVERYONE is effectively getting "paid" in one form or another for their research, position, ect on this issue.

I can almost assure you that were I to ask for grant money to "prove" that global warming is causeing mass harm I would have no problems getting the cash.
BUT if I were ask for grants/funding to challange the orthodoxy there would few monies available....and that is just the tip of the iceberg---so to speak.

Companies like "Exxon" fund a lot of research----including some that they really don't like to have made public---just because a someone is getting funding does not make them wrong.......the more so since it cuts BOTH ways.

I firmly belive that we need to grip on the enviromental challanges facing us, we need to pollute FAR less and conserve FAR more, we need to take steps based upon LONG TERM thinking...something that few nations seem willing to do.


Edited by cxt (01/21/08 11:28 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#377128 - 01/21/08 11:35 AM Re: Fred Seitz is a liar [Re: cxt]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

pretty much EVERYONE is suspect....not just Fox News.





I think thanks to the sucess of Fox News, this statement has become quite true.

Quote:

Take Gore---is there any reason for him to take a given positon?





Gore is a politician, part of the problem with this debate is Gore's political leanings get brought up, which really has nothing to do with the science of the issue.

The politics of any issue is you often need to overplay your hand or you don't get any attention.

Basically if you need 10, you scream your head off for 50, and hopefully they give you the 10 you truly need.

Say what you will about Gore but he has done a great job of getting focus on Global warming, that waas/is his job.
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#377129 - 01/21/08 12:59 PM Re: Fred Seitz is a liar [Re: cxt]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

In my utterly cynical world view---pretty much EVERYONE is suspect....not just Fox News.




Fair enough. I agree with Kimo that the state of American news in general (but especially since Fox News) has degraded horribly.

I can understand some people's frustrations with Gore's political leanings - to each his own. But again, this has little to do with the science and/or scientists involved in the IPCC. Gore is simply acknowledging what the IPCC found. He was not involved in the making of the report in any material way, as far as I can find (thus the "sharing" of the Nobel prize with the IPCC).
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#377130 - 01/21/08 03:00 PM Re: Fred Seitz is a liar [Re: MattJ]
floatfishski Offline
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Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
So you post links to two rabid environmental groups who's cranial function is probably more defind by the permanent THC load in the purkinje cells and suggest that I do better. I'll tell you this, Faux news is vastly more credible than those two sources. The fact that Greenpeace types don't like Seitz and offer vitriolic hyperbole to discredit him is the approach they take to anybody who doesn't buy their tripe. As is typical for their ilk, everything out of their mouth is hyperbole and casuistic!

I am not arguing that their is not an anthropgenic component to climate trends. I am not arguing that those scientist who find this component to be substantial aren't credible. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't take steps to continue to reduce the environmental damage done by man.

I am arguing that there is nothing close to a consensus and skeptisism is growing. I am arguing that researches whose data doesn't "fit" what is wanted have lost funding. I am arguing that great caution should be used when deciding policy that is based on the foil hat histrionics surrounding weak data and not on said data.

Now I know what will happen here, someone will use that last line to claim that I advocate doing nothing and ignore everything to the contrary that I've said.

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#377131 - 01/21/08 03:03 PM "These are the facts, and they are undisputed." [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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There is plenty of science available that disputes the theory of "human induced global warming".

It's just that the extremists on the left choose to ignore that science.

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#377132 - 01/21/08 04:07 PM Re: Fred Seitz is a liar [Re: floatfishski]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
float

The problem I have is that there is NOTHING wrong with taking pro-active steps to reduce pollution and increase conservation.

These are GOOD things....depending of course on how we chose to go about it.

I worry that people might throw the baby out with the bathwater on this issue.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#377133 - 01/21/08 04:15 PM Show me [Re: JAMJTX]
MattJ Offline
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FFS -

Quote:

The fact that Greenpeace types don't like Seitz and offer vitriolic hyperbole to discredit him is the approach they take to anybody who doesn't buy their tripe.




Pot calling kettle, sir. So you are saying that the facts that Seitz:

* worked for a tobacco company
* had research funded by an oil company
* was shunned by the very scientific organization he led, after his "research" began showing obvious bias to the industries he was paid from

Those are inaccurate? Those are facts, not hyperbole.

Quote:

I am not arguing that their is not an anthropgenic component to climate trends. I am not arguing that those scientist who find this component to be substantial aren't credible. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't take steps to continue to reduce the environmental damage done by man.




Then we agree about a few things, LOL.

Quote:

I am arguing that there is nothing close to a consensus and skeptisism is growing. I am arguing that researches whose data doesn't "fit" what is wanted have lost funding.




Like Seitz's funding? "Best research money can buy".

Quote:

I am arguing that great caution should be used when deciding policy that is based on the foil hat histrionics surrounding weak data and not on said data.




Foil hats? The IPCC report utilized 1000 scientists from 100 different countries over 20 years. That is a hell of a lot of foil, sir.

Difficult to imagine 100 countries agreeing to have the same "histrionics".

JAMJTX -

Quote:

There is plenty of science available that disputes the theory of "human induced global warming".




Yes, I've seen some of that re$$$$earch. Funny how it seems to be mainly the oil companies and their associates that dispute it.

Quote:

It's just that the extremists on the left choose to ignore that science.




That's odd......wasn't somebody just talking about hyperbole and histrionics? You guys must be TERRIFIED of all the leftists out there, the way you scream and cry about them.
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#377134 - 01/21/08 07:18 PM Re: Fred Seitz is a liar [Re: cxt]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
Quote:

float

The problem I have is that there is NOTHING wrong with taking pro-active steps to reduce pollution and increase conservation.

These are GOOD things....depending of course on how we chose to go about it.

I worry that people might throw the baby out with the bathwater on this issue.




That's the problem. Global warming is viewed as the crow bar by which wide spread social enginering changes can be made in the "global" community. It is the tried and standard approach used by Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro, and virtually every dictator in history.

Here in lies the conundrum though - only prosperous people give a rats butt about the environment. Prosperity requires wealth production, and economies that produce the greatest wealth are those with the greatest degree(s) of freedom. We are spending billions on the IPCC to produce and accomplish nothing. Show them that certain finger, pull the funding, and use it elsewhere to produce something. Use on research that might actually provide technologies that replace fossil fuels. Use it to stimulate economies. Use it to develop technologies to reduce turbidity from coastal development which is the primary reason for corral bleaching and any oceanic warming.

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#377135 - 01/21/08 07:52 PM Re: Show me [Re: MattJ]
floatfishski Offline
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Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
First, he was neither shunned nor discredit by the Academy. Yes he worked for R. J. Reynolds and has consulted for the oil industry. But if you are going to repunge him for that than every scientist who works for or supports an environmental cause must be treated the same - fair is fair.
The problem is, the links you posted so grossly overstated things that they went into the realm of being, frankly, liars. The Academy actually still honors Seitz's many accomplishments.

As to the funding issue, many scientists at NOAA, NCAR and other facilities have had funding pulled when their research results didn't support Gore apocolypse. And they have testified to such before the Senate. And they did not get their funding from the demon of "big oil". I know several of them. Additionally, the majority of the skeptics do not work with, or for, that demon. They are in academia, nationl laboritories such as NREL, NCAR, Los Alamos, Livermore, Berkley and INEL just to name a few.

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#377136 - 01/21/08 08:41 PM Re: Show me [Re: floatfishski]
MattJ Offline
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FFS -

Quote:

That's the problem. Global warming is viewed as the crow bar by which wide spread social enginering changes can be made in the "global" community. It is the tried and standard approach used by Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro, and virtually every dictator in history.




Tell me you didn't just go THERE. Pollution control = genocide? WTF. Godwin's law FTW.

Quote:

Here in lies the conundrum though - only prosperous people give a rats butt about the environment.




Absolutely false statement. Many non-prosperous people care about their environments.

Quote:

Prosperity requires wealth production, and economies that produce the greatest wealth are those with the greatest degree(s) of freedom.




Per your Hitler statement, perhaps you have a "final solution" for non-prosperous people.

Quote:

We are spending billions on the IPCC to produce and accomplish nothing. Show them that certain finger, pull the funding, and use it elsewhere to produce something. Use on research that might actually provide technologies that replace fossil fuels. Use it to stimulate economies.




Solving problems requires identifying problems, which is what the IPCC report is about.

Quote:

First, he was neither shunned nor discredit by the Academy.




They certainly did not stand behind the report you linked to. I don't know what YOU call that, but shunned or discredited is appropriate in that instance.

Quote:

The Academy actually still honors Seitz's many accomplishments.




Never said they didn't.

Quote:

As to the funding issue, many scientists at NOAA, NCAR and other facilities have had funding pulled when their research results didn't support Gore apocolypse. And they have testified to such before the Senate.




Hearsay. Links?
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#377137 - 01/21/08 08:54 PM Re: Show me [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

You guys must be TERRIFIED of all the leftists out there




No, and I've studied enough history to know that when you want terrorists, the left is the best place to start looking. Have you never read a history book?.. or have you simply absorbed their "peace, love, and harmony" B-S while they try to undermine society?

Just for giggles, sometime google-fu the incidents of leftist history, such as the Russian Revolution, Communism in China, and see how nice, peaceful, and kind-hearted our leftist brothers and sisters are. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are good examples of leftist "re-education" techniques, and if you think the ecological movements aren't their "tool", you need that tin-foil hat yourself.

Many of the leftists who were "prime movers" in the communist and socialist movements fell out of favor with their "brothers", and were murdered for nothing more than "policy differences", so it's not all that bad to be a bit tepid toward leftys. I'm not scared of snakes, but I don't want a viper living in my house... you never know when they'll decide to bite you... and leftists are just like them... and they're mean .

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#377138 - 01/21/08 09:10 PM Re: Show me [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
...and on the far right, what do we see? facism and authoritarian monarchical dictatorships who reject democracy, liberalism and individualism. Do I even need to name the famous far rightists in history?

I think the French revolution and American revolution were the first times the political dichonmy of 'left' and 'right' first started...good thing the left won those struggles, wouldn't you agree?

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#377139 - 01/21/08 09:17 PM Re: Show me [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
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Grady -

Quote:

No, and I've studied enough history to know that when you want terrorists, the left is the best place to start looking. Have you never read a history book?..




Does it SEEM like I have ever read a history book, Grady? Lord knows I'm not known for my researching, right?

Quote:

Just for giggles, sometime google-fu the incidents of leftist history, such as the Russian Revolution, Communism in China,




So now all liberals are communists? Very McCarthy-ist of you. (See? History!)

Quote:

Many of the leftists who were "prime movers" in the communist and socialist movements fell out of favor with their "brothers", and were murdered for nothing more than "policy differences", so it's not all that bad to be a bit tepid toward leftys.




'CAUSE AL GORE GONNA GITCHA!!!!!!

You're killing me, Grady!!!!

And I guess we're forgetting all those fine right-wing folk. Islamic Jihad, Westboro Church, Salem Witch Trials, Crusades, KKK, Tim McVeigh......etc.

Oh wait, perhaps we're forgetting them because our fine administration is not being forthcoming about their existence! I know it's shocking that our fine administration wouldn't be forthcoming about something, but.....

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050712/12natsec.htm

"The DHS report listed radical leftist groups, such as the Animal Liberation Front and the Earth Liberation Front, which have been involved in numerous arson cases, but not violent right-wing militia and skinhead groups."
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#377140 - 01/21/08 10:18 PM Re: Show me [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6768
"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier....just so long as I'm the dictator."
-George W. Bush 12/2000

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#377141 - 01/21/08 10:21 PM So now all liberals are communists? Very McCarthy- [Re: MattJ]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
History has proven the McCarthy was right.

I can't think of any liberal I know, or any liberal politician that is not a communist.

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#377142 - 01/21/08 10:55 PM Re: Show me [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
anybody that's falling off the plate is trouble... left or right... the "supremicists" of any ilk are problems... the history of leftys, however, shows millions of casualties in the name of "cleansing the society". That doesn't let the facists or others off the hook either, whose record is just as dismal, but look at the societies that have followed both kinds of purges.

One of my students is from Poland, and grew up under communism, and lived there when communism devolved into today's Poland. Maybe if you think that kind of life is for you, you might need to have a talk with him. He laughs at a lot of what people think of communism because he lived under it. He says communism is exactly like the depiction in Animal Farm... everybody's equal, only some are more equal than others... You can have your share of everything... they're just always out of it. He remembers standing in line for 3 days to get a washing machine, and then being turned away because "they had passed out their allotment" of them... same with groceries... same with meat... just about anything. You want a utopia... there it is...

Quote:

You're killing me, Grady!!!!




Matt, the difference is that I wouldn't be...

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#377143 - 01/21/08 11:20 PM Re: So now all liberals are communists? Very McCarthy- [Re: JAMJTX]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I can't think of anyone who thinks that, who doesn't have an abject emotional fear of sensability.


Matt, we have nothing to worry about - they are only after hollywood directors, actors, writers, silent film stars and strangers in airport bathrooms. oh yes and almost forgot, it a good thing we are also not non-white homosexual pagan incense-burning vegan terrorists who want to plant more trees, get married and vote within the bible-belt.

meanwhile, they apparently have no problem with opening up the floodgates of immigration - as long as it's from a poor country that the Corps. can use as a cheap labor force that doesn't complain.

If they are worried about communist sabators, what they should be worried about is their personal Russian mail-orders and Chinese concubines. we don't see them turning down on that spigot of immigration, do we.


viva la Amerika!

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#377144 - 01/21/08 11:34 PM Re: Show me [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Grady, I'm no where near the far left. Communism was a failed experiment...how it still survives today is beyond me - but it probably has something to do with the shear population numbers of the near Eastern countries that still hang on to it.

I haven't seen any communists marching down America avenue - what I have seen/heard/read numerous times EVERY year are the skinhead neo-group hicks marching their hate thru every middle-america town. If you want to start cracking down on groups, nevermind the people in sandals eating grape-nuts - start with the haters.

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#377145 - 01/21/08 11:43 PM Re: So now all liberals are communists? Very McCarthy- [Re: JAMJTX]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
Quote:

History has proven the McCarthy was right.

I can't think of any liberal I know, or any liberal politician that is not a communist.




That is a bit over the top and you might want to re-think. Yes, todays liberals have a healthy element of Marxist thought but they are not communists. An argument based on anthropogenic forcing v. natural forcing has merit. Stick to that.

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#377146 - 01/21/08 11:52 PM Re: So now all liberals are communists? Very McCarthy- [Re: floatfishski]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I understand where it comes from. there are alot of parallels to the hyped fears acted upon during the mccarthy era, as has been done with hyped fears in recent years.

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#377147 - 01/22/08 12:07 AM Re: Show me [Re: MattJ]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
Sorry Matt, but research clearly shows that only a people who have their fundamental needs met actually care about the environment. If you wake up tomorrow knowing that you have to slash and burn to provide food then you're attitude will alsways be the middle finger to the environment. Frankly, I can't believe you're even profering an argument to contrary. If you are not prosperous and live at the level of subsistence, then your singular goal is to survive - period. So far, all you have offerd are talking points, and links to nutters of the "environmental" movement, and trite, dismissive comments to those who disagree with you. Show me that you know more about science than I do and I will . Until you do that I will still offer you respect becasue it is obvious that you are neither an idiot or stupid. You will always be better served by ponder and consideration.

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#377148 - 01/22/08 12:40 AM Re: Show me [Re: floatfishski]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
ummm...what makes you assume the position of victory?

The controversy of who is right/wrong isn't as important as the common sense goal: reduce and stop our crap going into the environment or it's only going to get worse. can it be proven what and how much gets worse? no. but by focusing on that question it bypases the common sense....meanwhile it's getting worse.


btw, a strange comment you made. how bad-off can anyone here be - having time to type and ponder? I think it's safe to assume that people here are not hunter-and-gatherers, surviving day-by-day in a mud hut with a high-speed internet connection.

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#377149 - 01/22/08 01:42 AM Re: Show me [Re: Ed_Morris]
floatfishski Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Danver for now.
I do not assume the position of victory. And you are correct in your comment, "stop our crap going into the environment"

As for having the "time to type and ponder", we can because we are prosperous. That was not, and we are not the ones I was talking about. Being considerate of the environment is not a luxury enjoyed by those who live hand to mouth. My comment was to point out that those who are trying to survive will always choose survival over any environmental consideration. You misread me, or perhaps I wasn't succint.

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#377150 - 01/22/08 01:55 AM Re: Show me [Re: Ed_Morris]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
"I haven't seen any communists marching down America avenue"

And you won't. The last attempt to have a clinton lead us there was/is known as "the third way". Invading the U.S. and forcing communism on us is something that will fail. What we see happening is a long slow march to communism instead.

Through indocrination in the schools - teaching lies about America and calling it history - "dumbing down" the students, teaching things like "global warming" and calling it science. Detsoying American jobs and creating a welfare state while further indoctrinating people against the free markets that can bring them independence.

One former leader of the Commnist Party of America (I don't recall which one, it may have been Gus Hall himself) made a statement that since both the Democrat and Republican parties have adopted so much of thier platform that they really don't need to win elections.

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#377151 - 01/22/08 02:30 AM Re: Show me [Re: JAMJTX]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
hey, this could be like that game 'Mad Libs'


Quote:


The last attempt to have a republican lead us there was/is known as "the third way". Invading the U.S. and forcing fascism on us is something that will fail. What we see happening is a long slow march to dictatorship instead.


Through indocrination in the schools - teaching lies about America and calling it history - "dumbing down" the students, teaching things like intelligent design and calling it science. Detsoying American jobs and creating a welfare state while further indoctrinating people against the free markets that can bring them independence.


One former leader of a large news network in America (I don't recall which one, it may have been Rupert Murdoch himself) made a statement that since both the Democrat and Republican parties have accepted so much campaign contributions that they really don't need to win elections.




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#377152 - 01/22/08 06:18 AM Re: Show me [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Hey Ed,
any of this sound familiar? It's from the 1963 Congressional Record...

Quote:

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.





Gee... just imagine if any of that was going on...
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#377153 - 01/22/08 08:18 AM Re: Show me [Re: wristtwister]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1987
Loc: Lorton, VA
This thread has been Godwin'd and has turned political. Locked for a cooling-off period. Mods, unlock at your discretion. --Z
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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