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#376956 - 01/06/08 12:58 AM The Global Warming thread...
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I saw a couple of comments in another thread that had taken off on global warming, and wanted to chime in on it.

I worked for about 15 years doing pollution abatement engineering design, and my opinion is that most of it is based on "junk science"... just like a lot of the pollution information. It depends on who's "stating the facts" as to what the facts actually mean, and turning the phrases to give errant impressions seem to be the method of selling this scam to the public.

When I was doing pollution engineering, we often had "measurable quantities" of pollution that we had to deal with... plant run-off, stack discharges, etc. and when the discussions were made public, it was interesting to see how little the public actually knew about the scale of life on this planet.

For instance, the county government in one state where we did a job gave a "pollution control" award to a local group who waded into the river and picked up paper and cans... they might have picked up a half ton of garbage all together. In the same breath, they issued fines against one of the companies we did work for, who had spent several million dollars to install precipitators that removed over 200 tons of air pollution (above and beyond the regulatory limits) and were threatening to shut them down for "damaging the environment". Now the plant had operated there for years, and was one of the cleanest for several states around... and doing a magnificent job of eliminating almost all of their pollutants out of the air and river.

I installed one job in Tennessee that completely changed the air quality readings of a paper mill to below the allowable limits, and installed an "inert-gas discharge unit" which converted poisonous gases into inert gases or inert elements by running them through a furnace and a set of coolers that dropped out the solids and discharged cool gases and water back to the environment. The scale of difference is like that of a paper airplane compared to a 747, when you look at the volumes of change created... but the tree-huggers were still protesting the mill at every opportunity.

Now, having done "air quality maps" and the like for EPA documents, the "information" that is being put out about global warming is a lot like Chicken Little and his "sky is falling" warning. Some of the recovery boilers at the paper mills where I worked were 260 feet tall, and put off billions of btu's (heat units) into the atmosphere. Standing 15 feet from the building, you could freeze to death, so the "environmental impact" of "heating" the atmosphere was clearly negligible... so which plants are causing global warming? Next to smelters in steel mills, these were some of the largest furnaces on earth... and the impact of their discharges was very closely controlled.

Environmentalists always think that "companies are evil"... but companies are made up of people whose children live and play in the same area as the plant, and drink the water from the same water sources... so they aren't unaware of how well the plants take care of their environmental responsibilities. It's just easier to "cry wolf" than to actually analyze the information intelligently and then plot a course of action if there's a problem... and I say "if" with emphasis. More times than not, the companies are doing what they should be doing... complying with the laws, and spending millions of dollars to abate the environmental impact of their plant discharges and effluents.

I built a lot of the water treatment plants when I worked in the oil business in Louisiana, and I would rather drink what we put into the river than what came out of the tap... our standards were not only higher, but the discharges were cleaner.

What we're dealing with here, is a big-government scam. The idea of "carbon credits" where each country is issued X-number of credits that can be traded and sold to "meet their pollution emissions standards" is nothing more than a shell game to make money. It has nothing to do with the actual changes in the atmospheric conditions of climate change, and most reputable scientists have already said so.

"Global warming" has become the mantra of the leftists all over the world (most of whom are the worst violators of any kinds of emission standards anyway), but their "trick" is to do exactly what they are accusing you of doing, only making sure that the press coverage is all going their way.

One of the highlights of my work in environmental engineering, was an "air quality hearing" I went to in Asheville, North Carolina where the EPA reps were all blasting the "solids count" of local air readings. It was quite heated until one of the engineers said "gentlemen, the only way that these readings will meet your standards is if you cut down the entire national forest, because most of the solids count in your monitors are pollen from the trees in the national forest".

Environmentalism, when practiced with some sense, is very productive... and most companies are responsible to clean up their own mess. Where it goes wrong, is in the level of understanding of how a lot of waste can be handled safely without having to create another earth. Sometimes, cleaning up an effluent discharge is as simple as planting a particular grass where it flows, or paving over the contaminated soil so it doesn't go into the groundwater. All chemicals have a "shelf life" and unless they contain heavy metals, like lead, they will break down of their own accord over time. Paving over them keeps them from leaching into the ground water or running off into the streams... but try telling that to an "environmentalist".

"Mother Nature" has a lot of ability to correct her own problems, and like the idiots who want to preserve every species of animal... the evolutionary chain of history doesn't support that kind of thinking. Species come and go all the time... and stopping the world to protect the snail darter isn't going to cause havoc on the earth... it will simply rearrange some portion of the food chain.

My beliefs on this are simple... it's a scam, and the science that it's supposedly based on is Having worked for about 15 years dealing with the environment and EPA regulations lets me know a little more than average about how "environmental matters" are actually handled... and it sure isn't in any way , shape, or form the way it's reported on the news.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#376957 - 01/06/08 02:00 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
clmibb Offline

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
Loc: South Texas, US
Ya know wrist, last semester in college I read an article that basically said that at the rate that the earth is warming up, man couldn't do even if we tried. The earth "breathes", if you will. Oxygen levels rise and fall over the centuriess. Oxygen acts like an air conditioner for the earth; the more oxygen, the cooler the air, more CO2, warmer the earth. Simple enough, right? Let's go WAAAAAY back to the dinosaurs (or some of y'alls childhood which ever is longer. LOL). The earth was warmer. We know this because of the size of the plant fossils that have been found in northern climates (bigger plants live in warmer climates. Stay with me people.) Cold-blooded animals were HUGE! Now we all know SOMETHING happened to them to cause extinction. The earth cooled and there was an ice age. Plants die off and CO2 levels rise causing the earth to warm up (yet again). The earth warming up allows longer growing seasons and allows plants to grow bigger (thus producing more oxygen). See a pattern? The earth is simply doing what it's been doing for the past 4.5 billion years, breathing. Nothing more, nothing less. If you look at paintings done during the Revolutionary War (especially the one of Washington crossing the Deleware River, it was during a mini-ice age) you'll notice large ice chunks floating in the river. That doesn't happen these days. I just doesn't get cold enough any more. It's not because our pollution caused the earth to warm; afterall, it was warm before the mini-ice age happened which indirectly "caused" the earth to cool. In another 5,000 years (mark my words) we'll probably see another ice age. We are simply in the earth's natural warming trend. It'll cool again, no need to panic.

"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first."- Ronald Reagan

#376958 - 01/06/08 02:21 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
JAMJTX Offline

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Of course we should do all that we feasibly can to protect and preserve the environment. But I also believe that the "global warming threat" is a politically motivated scam.

It's not about the environment - it's about control.

It's about politicians and power junkies like Al Gore flying around in a jet tellinge everyone else they should ride a bike or take a bus in order to protect the environment. They just don't want others to have what they want.

We just witnessed a global warming conference in Bali where a large number of elitists gathered in an exotic resort at the expense of others. The amount of pollution from the feul they burned was equal to 20,000 cars over a lifetime. This does not sound like a group of people who believe in what they are selling? These people have all sorts of technology available to share information with video and teleconference. They did not have to take private jets to a resort that is in a location where none of them lived.

Take a look at the Kyoto treaty. It seems they think only American pollution causes global warming. China (the worlds biggest polluter) is exempt. As is India, which is rapidly becoming the world's 2nd biggest polluter.

With thier acceptance of Kyoto, Germany moved thier biggest coal powered electric plant to Poland. They never cut thier use of electricity or thier burning of coal - they did claim they reduced thier emissions. So apparently buring coal in Germany to generate power causes global warming but burning the same coal in Poland does not. This is just ridiculous.

The climate is changing. That is evident. What is also eveident is that is always has. Didn't anyone ever hear of the Ice Age? What to people think happened to the glaciers that rolled across North America? Then there was another "mini ice age" in the 1400's.
Here in the U.S. there was a period known as "the dust bowl days" in the 1930's. Then by the 1970's scientists were predicting another ice age if we didn't do something about pollution. By the 1990's they forgot all about the coming of the new ice age and were into scaring people about global warming.
I was just reading where a group of Russian scientists are saying that we are seeing the end of the latest warming trend and that by 2050 we'll be wishing we were as warm as we are now because the freezing cold will be killing people all over the planet.

Scaremongers have been predicting the end of the world from climate disaster for well over 100 years and they have always been wrong.

Look what happened after Katrina. We were told that it was global warming that created that big storm and that was the beginning of the end. From then on Categroy 5 Hurricanes were going to be the norm and we would have to change the scale to measure bigger storms. Then the next 2 hurricane seasons were mostly a big fizzle.

Global wanrming is just a big lie told by the leftist enemies of freedom. Sadly, even "conservatives" on the "right" now think they need to get the religion of gloabl warming in order to get re-elected. It took a long time, but our enemies finally found a way to bring us down and it looks like they are going to pull it off this time.

#376959 - 01/06/08 04:42 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
What we call 'global warming' is a cyclical phenomena outside of our control. It is the exact same climate development that was a precursor to the Ice age, and as far as I know, that had sweet diddly to do with mans 'carbon footprint'.
There is no doubt that we have upset the balance of nature with our dominance of the planet- 6 billion+ all wanting their share of land and resources is decimating Earth, but even without us, the globe would still be experiencing tsunami, earhquakes, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, flash floods, rising sea levels etc- its just that we wouldnt be around to be affected by them.
I think that energy saving is a good practice from a financial point of view, and that the 'green-propaganda' machine has a value if it makes us all less wasteful, as our society is somewhat grotesque in its excesses; but it wont do a damn thing to stop the world going through its natural processes.
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#376960 - 01/06/08 05:10 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Cord]
jude33 Offline

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I like to think I sit on the fence on this one.

The Earth according to science.

It has gone and will indeed go through warming and ice age's because of the different proccesses that are out of the control of man.

The Earth produces its own what is termed as pollution.

Mans input.
Should man be allowed to create so called further pollution?
Will this pollution speed up the occurence of the natural events?
Does the hole in the ozone exist? Has anybody actualy gone up and taken samples ? That should get some certain none thinkers thinking.( Not specificly aiming that comment at you Cord or anybody else , just generalising)

Certain Humans use certain events to futher their own cause and with it do stupid things but that is back to politics again. One thing I was watching on TV last night was how stupid humans that are in charge are and they cant use their own technology correctly.
In 1983 we nearly had world war 3. Nuclear holicost. Why? Because certain humans monitoring other humans technology playing war games thought it was real?

So what hope is there for rational thought about global warming from those in charge?


Edited by jude33 (01/06/08 05:27 AM)

#376961 - 01/06/08 10:20 AM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
while it's true that the earth does go thru various natural cycles, the amount of carbon dioxide (greenhouse gases) has spiked over and above the natural cycle within the past 150 years (corresponding to the industial age).

whether or not we are spewing enough into the air to change the earth's climate can be debated until it's too late to reverse it. why the big deal with toughening pollution laws? doesn't it seem inherently reasonable to use technology to reduce our pollution of any kind instead of increacing it and seeing what happens?
hell, if Evolution is still debated, then I'm sure this debate will never be resolved.

let's take the buzzword 'global warming' off the table - just look at it as "a industrial global agreement to meet agreed upon limits of pollution emmission." better? because thats all they are trying to do.

The US wouldn't do it - the big companies would cry and moan before threatening to pull their political support. change decreaces short-term profits. Thats exactly what happened when the global industrial community went metric and the US never invested to make it we are still using a medieval english system. The kind of dumb, short-term thinking that only comes from short-term greed.

who knows about global warming...I only care about global polution levels regardless of what is or isn't proven about it. and contries agreeing to have standards, and then sticking to those standards doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.

#376962 - 01/06/08 02:01 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
McSensei Offline

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1069
Loc: Kent, England
Hat tip to Gavin for the following by George Carlin...

We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these **** people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the **** planet?

I'm getting tired of that ****. Tired of that ****. I'm tired of **** Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't give a **** about the planet. They don't care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are ****. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

We're going away. Pack your ****, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" Plastic...[censored].

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see... Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while."

#376963 - 01/06/08 02:36 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
what I find amazing is that people who aren't familiar with chemistry don't seem to realize that converting gases or increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere only spurs organic growth. Trees and green-growth mediums feed on carbon dioxide... their by-product is oxygen... so unless you want to kill off plant life, CO2 is an important part of the plant-oxygen cycle.

Now, if you want a "cause", it would be "acid rain". Discharges that cause the acidity levels of rainfall to change DO cause environmental harm. They change the soil chemistry so that plants can't live, but it isn't carbon dioxide that's doing that. The "acid-caustic" balance of life is changeable, and when acid levels rise, the "green" lifeforms tend to die off. Nature usually creates a scenario where caustic elements blow in and change the chemistry back to a "neutral" and things start all over again... but one of the posters was right... it's not the U.S. that is killing off the planet. If anyone, the unregulated countries where rainforests and "large timber growth" are being affected are doing more damage than American industry.

Pollution is usually a "local problem", unless you have a volcano erupt, or something on that scale occur. Our EPA laws are probably the most stringent on earth, and you can't have one country "do it all". If they want to control pollution, it has to be enforceable in all countries... not just the U.S. The reason the other country's industries are surging is because businesses can ship their plants overseas and not have to deal with regulation.

I'm all for keeping the planet safe for humans, and not screwing up the world with chemical discharges... but at the same time, it's being used in this instance as a moneymaking scam, i.e. the fakey "carbon credits" scam... so where do we go from here?


let's take the buzzword 'global warming' off the table - just look at it as "a industrial global agreement to meet agreed upon limits of pollution emmission." better? because thats all they are trying to do.

As much as I'd like to think that was true, a lot of this is done to grasp governmental control over more people, and has nothing to do with "saving the planet" or "corporate environmental standards" throughout the world. It's being sold on that basis, but you can see the "boogey man" behind the curtain if you look at what it actually does. It's another way for every other nation on earth to stick their hand into the U.S.'s pocket.

It doesn't really matter whether or not they call it "global warming", "climate change", or "blue thursday"... it's still a scam, and it's designed to further pluck America from the lead among "first world nations".

Look at world politics, and you'll see a "resurgance" in Russia, China is booming, India is booming... and it's all about "economic realignment"... not saving the planet. Any time you see a politician touting our compliance with "world environmental standards", you can count on that guy having his pockets lined with gold from the third world countries that are working day and night to strip the riches from America.

I really wish that the "global warming" crisis was real... at least then, there would be legitimate steps to correcting the problem that were doing something rather than making idiots like "plastic man" (Al Gore) and the like richer... while they tell us to hang our wash out on the line as they get on their 747 to go to the grocery.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#376964 - 01/06/08 03:14 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10416
Loc: Great White North
When it gets to -40C (-40F) I'm always reminded of global warming. That is sarcasm of course.

I think we have done some things but not to the degree that we are scared to believe. Weather patterns go in cycles and this is plain for anybody to see and is shown on my regular weather channel as they always lists the dates when temperatures like that were reached prior. I've had hot summers and not so hot summers. I've had @ss freezing winters and not so bad winters; again the weather cycle changes and will again repeat itself.

Environmentalists I've found have always gone overboard and in many cases is something discussed in politics to gain favor. And I'm sure that people in this industry and the amount of monitoring and equipment and such is a billion dollar industry with money to be made for those that capitalize on it ... so I find in too many cases money dictates things. For example, if I purchase a new generation furnace that is suppose to be better for the environment for my home, I can get a tax reduction ... but first I have to spend a whole heck of a lot of money to purchase this unit and who is that money going to? Into the pockets of some company who is capitalizing on this and more then likely pays a cut to the government so that they can give me my tax credit.

I believe we should do all that we can for the environment and I know companies are. All of our plant's waste water is collected, monitored, filtered and cleaned and its waste is disposed by government programs at government selected facilities. All of our paper is recycled. All of our cardboard is recycled. All of our batteries are recycled. We purchased recycled paper. We purchase are recycled toner cartridges and returned them when done. We do a lot and I know other places are too. These are all positives and my wife and I do this at home and have forever. Our city in the last 10 years has had programs for recycling at our dumps with glass bins, paper bins, cardboard bins, plastic bins, grass cutting bins, etc. We as a society are making this better but we still have those die hards screaming murder; we are killing the planet. I know of forest industry companies that plant millions of trees to keep their industry going and their monitoring of what goes into the environment is phenomenal.

I think things are grossly exaggerated and I think we as people need to hear the truth not fiction.

#376965 - 01/06/08 03:19 PM Re: The Global Warming thread... [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

I'm all for keeping the planet safe for humans, and not screwing up the world with chemical discharges...

sidestepping the politics, hype and hoopla - thats all I'm looking for as well. I mean, are we going to go back to having smokestacks , 20ft visability and commercials with crying American Indians?

actually, what would be the commercial today: a teary-eyed American Indian overlooking a casino located on a landfill.

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