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#376641 - 01/03/08 02:14 PM Cutting down the tree
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
I am a TKD stylist and have been for some time. In most of my years of training, I wasn't taught to attack the legs, which actually confused me quite a bit. If the legs were a kickers greatest weapons, and we were kickers, wouldn't it make sense to take that weapon away?

Over the last 10 years or so, I have had the benefit of training techniques designed to destroy the base or cut down the tree. I am not talking about traps and sweeps, but strikes or submissions designed to put that kicking leg out of commision.

As a TKD stylist, do you train in leg destruction techniques and/or how to defend against them?
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#376642 - 01/03/08 06:12 PM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: RazorFoot]
flynch Offline
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Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
In class we do not train leg destruction we are limited to the occassional sweep to the back of the knee. I say ocassional because it is not a regular part of sparring but maybe a couple of times a year it is reveiwed and drilled. The story given is that it is mainly for safety reasons.

We don't deal with submissions of or strikes to the legs

I do try to train outside of class on low kicks as I feel it is an important aspect. I do see some people who always kick high. There seems to be this need to always kick to the head so much so that you always know were the kick is going to be. You just have to keep your hands up and or even just stay out of range (ie be inside or outside)

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#376643 - 01/03/08 07:15 PM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: flynch]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I've been doing leg destructions ever since I first started my martial arts training under Moo Duk Kwan. Now I train all sort of destructions for both hand and legs attacks. I have no blocks in my system. I no longer see attacks I see targets. As someone with a JKD background Scottie you can relate I'm sure.

For low line kicks I use my knees for high line I use elbows.

As you know you can't destroy or intercept every target, thats where my Olympic TKD footwork comes in handy, I'm able to dodge and evade attacks.
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#376644 - 01/03/08 07:33 PM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
We train to take out the legs. Via low kicks and takedowns. has always been a standard part of what I teach and is part of TKD! And yes, we train defences as well.

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (01/03/08 07:34 PM)
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#376645 - 01/03/08 08:29 PM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: RazorFoot]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, I think it is an important part of SD training.

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#376646 - 01/04/08 04:46 AM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: ITFunity]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
While we don't do grappling in our school I have noticed the relative ease with which many students kicks can be absorbed and grabbed/held which happens from time to time.

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#376647 - 01/04/08 08:03 AM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: ITFunity]
RazorFoot Offline
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Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Quote:

Yes, I think it is an important part of SD training.




Agreed, but does ITF have specific techniques for this purpose? In a few of our patterns (poomsae, forms), low/leg kicks are performed, but not many.

For self defense purposes, we demonstrate and practice, with control, elbow strikes to incoming high techniques (punches or kicks) and knee strikes to lower techniques. Attacks to the supporting leg (knee, shin, inner/outer thigh) are demonstrated with control.

And I have even shown the simple and subtle technique of a one knuckle strike to the toes or base of feet to discourage the desire for the opponent to kick. You would be surprised how well that works.

Scottie
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#376648 - 01/04/08 09:20 AM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: RazorFoot]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
From my TKD just linear low kicks,like front or side.Some takedowns,not many and a bit 'iffy'.The rest just sweeps or trips.
I always took it that the chamber or re-chamber of the kicks to be part of the defense.
There might be more its just my TKD instructor doesnt know it or has not shown it.
With the trad turning kick in TKD it seems to be 'if you can kick high you can kick low' and I dont know of a specific low kick taught.
Thats ok from the idea of wearing steel toe cap boots and digging one in.
But doing an good low kick using the shin or intep requires different body mechanics and I have not seen that taught in TKD.

Outside of TKD,yea.Low kicks,submissions,low kick defence,Takedowns,etc etc.
One thing I was shown was if your in someones gaurd to strike and attack their thighs,if you can sit up enough.Best to do it ASAP when you go down rather than get pulled into a gaurd game.Or to elbow backwards onto their thighs if your pulled down round the arms or neck.
Its not meant in place of grappling ability or anything like that.
I see opportunitys for this to be done in UFC but they dont.Maybe its not allowed I dont know.
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#376649 - 01/04/08 11:30 AM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: RazorFoot]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Yes, I think it is an important part of SD training.



Agreed, but does ITF have specific techniques for this purpose? In a few of our patterns (poomsae, forms), low/leg kicks are performed, but not many. Scottie




Yes, there are numerous low kicks, kicks from the ground, sweeps, foot tackling, take downs, throws & of course general SD, along with HooSinSul. When one uses the whole syllabus of the ITF TKD, one can build a strong foundation with some 3,200+ fundamental movements, BUT MUST use & apply them under realistic conditions, of course within reason. When we put it all together, often students will grab legs &/or wind up on the ground with the fighting continuing. The weak area in my judgement is actual holds & releases from grips on the floor. So this is something we work out by actually doing. Remember that ITF TKD was developed in the military by numerous talented MAists, via the Oh Do Kwan. It is a MMA for SD. However, sport has replaced the emphasis on SD. Referring to the textbooks, helps keep one grounded on the primary physical mission of TKD, SD!

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#376650 - 01/04/08 11:45 AM Re: Cutting down the tree [Re: RazorFoot]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I always found that slightly bizzare myself Razorfoot. As I understand it, TKD basically emerged from Shotokan and TaeK Kyon, BOTH of which make extensive sweeps/low kicks. Don't know why they aren't taught more widely in TKD, and why they aren't used in sparring.

I read a book my Master Kit Kiew about Shaolin Monks. He said that if a Shaolin Monk had to kick a high target, they would do a jumping kick. The Monks knew centuries and centuries ago that high kicks from the ground left you off balance and vunerable, so they never used them.

I find that in modern TKD, there is an emphasis placed on kicking, particuarly high kicks from the ground. I wonder has it always been this way? If so, do you think low kicks/sweeps were all but eliminated from the system of TKD to prevent, as the Shaolin Monks saw it, as the weakness of high kicks being exposed?

Just rambling here, but I have never came up with a good reason as to why they aren't widely taught or included in TKD more.
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