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#376295 - 01/22/08 08:15 PM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi Wristtwister.

From my point of view if an observation of a demonstration is made.

It is then written down.

People could read it, and then;

1 Agree,
2 Dont care
3 Or disagree with it.

If they disagree then I think bonifide/thought-out reasons of why they disagree should be put forward.

This might include the people who disagree finding alternative way's that the demonstration could have been done and putting those forward for discussion.

Then it becomes a decent argument.

The more I open up my mind the more I see things that happen that even top scientists cant explain.

They can give a theory on some things.

Jude

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#376296 - 01/22/08 08:47 PM Re: Safety [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I don't have dog in this race, but honestly guys:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof or something to that effect.

The burden of proof is on the people claiming a guy can put his hand in water without getting scalded, that's how these arguments should work.

Since Ed (or whoever doesn't buy it) has made no claim, it really is kind of silly to ask him to disprove the event you claim happened. This is the only part of the argument that matters, because the results that you are claiming are not reproducable that we know of.

Like so many other things in life, burden of proof is on the claimant.




Zach is exactly right. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

I personally don't believe it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#376297 - 01/23/08 07:14 AM Re: Safety [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Like so many other things in life, burden of proof is on the claimant.




Wristtwister did'nt put his hand in to a boiling substance.
Therefore I dont think he is the claimant of doing the demonstration.
He is the observer of a demonstration.
What he assumed was water from a tap
poured into an empty pot
Heated up untill boiling
Hand immersed.
No damage to hand.

He is reporting on what he saw.
If someone doesnt believe it then they can state that and find reasons how it could be done. Ed did just that.
He looked for reasons and gave an argument.
With out giving reasons the argument becomes
"The person states they dont believe it because it seems it cant be done"

Along the lines of "The Earth isnt flat because books tell the person so but the person couldnt prove it before space flight gave photos. Where as it could have been proven by the person themselves from observations on Earth.

Little attempt to apply logic to the argument.

If a person did the same hand in the water demonstration on TV, (with an audience) then people would say it cant be done , it is a trick. If I were that person I would take bets from the audience. They would have to prove there and then it cant be done with out a repeat performance.

If I were to do the same thing the observer would see the same things as Wristtwister saw.

I think the answer has to be in a persons ability to try to use the brain?
I think it can be done.
Just a footnote to some of you guys that have been on the forum for that bit longer. No disrespect to Zach.
If you think jude is doing a lot of thinking then perhaps that is your fault. If it wasnt for discussions like this and other thought provoking subjects then I wouldnt do much research.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/23/08 07:16 AM)

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#376298 - 01/23/08 01:52 PM Re: Safety [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
First, barefoot firewalking on coals does not injure feet. It's a gawddamn tourist attraction. kids and grandparents do it. Even if you walked a duck over the coals and kept them moving, they wouldn't be burned either. Would the duck channel their chi or use their mind to protect them against the laws of physics? it's not a demonstration of 'mind over matter' as wristwister wants you to believe so he can attempt to manufacture a point. It's a matter of overcoming the fear of doing it since your mind psychologically advises you against it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-walking


The whole 'mind over matter' thing is your mind overcoming ITSELF. not your mind overcoming physics.

With that in mind, consider the average temperature that water has to be in order to give scalding burns.
http://www.accuratebuilding.com/services/legal/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_graph.html

and
Quote:


Most adults will suffer third-degree burns if exposed to 150 degree water for two seconds. Burns will also occur with a six-second exposure to 140 degree water or with a thirty second exposure to 130 degree water. Even if the temperature is 120 degrees, a five minute exposure could result in third-degree burns.





notice there are no disclaimers saying: "...but if you channel your chi and think happy thoughts, your skin won't be burned."

also notice the chart of damage per temp goes up exponentially. if 150F for 2 sec gives you 3rd degree burns, imagine 212F for 5 seconds on human skin!

now, let's say a guy is paralized from the shoulder in both arms for some reason. the arms are completely dead - no feeling, no pain. If his dead hand touches boiling water, they still get the same damage as someone not feeling any pain. of course it does since their skin is human and made up of the same material as everyone elses....reguardless of what their tolerance to pain is.


If mind over matter is a literal claim, then have that person hold a length of uncooked spagheti into a pot of boiling water - see if they can hold it in and prevent the noodle from cooking.


so the control variables to perform the illusion of boiling your hand at 212F unscathed is:
1. trick them into thinking your hand actually made contact with the scalding water.
or
2. make it look like, or make them think it's boiling at 212F/100C.

either you fake the hand, or you fake the water. but boiling hot water and a bare real human hand - straight up with no tricks WILL always, 100% chance, no exceptions, always, always - scald any human skin on the planet.


WT, it's sortof hard to take your arguments seriously in other threads if you can't see any possible way that you may have been tricked when witnessing this feat. When was this demo, in the 70's? yeah there were alot of supernatural MA claims floating around then. Chinese guys with nominal MA and pretty good magic and acrobatic tricks touring the country post 'Kung Fu' series looking to clean up then go back home.

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#376299 - 01/23/08 03:25 PM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Has anyone seen the video of Morihei Ueshiba meditating with his hand on a boiling tea kettle? I couldn't find a link (I can't access youtube from work--maybe someone can find it and post for me), but it appears that his hand is resting on the kettle and you can hear the water boiling. He takes his hand off, and the boiling sound gets quiet. You have to find the clip that has the original sound with it. Very interesting. I still don't know what to make of it.

I'm not taking any sides, just looking for other opinions or comments.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#376300 - 01/23/08 03:47 PM Re: Safety [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


He is reporting on what he saw.
If someone doesnt believe it then they can state that and find reasons how it could be done. Ed did just that.
He looked for reasons and gave an argument.
With out giving reasons the argument becomes
"The person states they dont believe it because it seems it cant be done"





Jude:

I'm not claiming it did or didn't happen, but since we can't reproduce the results that we know of, i'm skpetical.

However, you and/or wristtwister seem to be claiming it happened, therefore the burden of proof is on you. It really is that simple.

There is no need for a counter argument because you guys have proven absolutely nothing, you've just thrown out some very subjective experiences and opinions and tried to label them as fact, they're not.

For the record, I am fairly open minded about phenomena like this, but I'm certainly not just going to take someone's word for it that it "just happened" anymore than I would someone telling me about sighting the Virgin Mary, it may be possible but the burden of proof is on them, not me.

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#376301 - 01/23/08 07:07 PM Re: Safety [Re: BodhiHuss]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Has anyone seen the video of Morihei Ueshiba meditating with his hand on a boiling tea kettle? I couldn't find a link (I can't access youtube from work--maybe someone can find it and post for me), but it appears that his hand is resting on the kettle and you can hear the water boiling. He takes his hand off, and the boiling sound gets quiet. You have to find the clip that has the original sound with it. Very interesting. I still don't know what to make of it.

I'm not taking any sides, just looking for other opinions or comments.




I couldnt say at this moment in time.

Is the adding of chemicals/other fluids to pure water considered a trick?

The point I have been making about what appeared to wristtwister as water boiling is that certain people just dismiss most things with out exploring the subject and finding counter arguments.

I think Ed found a number of good counter arguments.

I believe that wristtwister saw what he saw.
I believe Ed has put forward a good counter argument.

I believe the same thing that wristtwister observed could be repeated using more than likely the same methods that wristtwister saw.

The two questions I ask myself

Can a person put their hands in to what is known as the normal tempreture of boiling water and using mind control not get burned?
Seems most say not.
If it can be done then wristwister reported 100% correctly.

Can the boiling point of pure water be brought down enough to the level a person wouldnt get burned ?

If the answer to last can be found then it isnt a trick.
It is people assuming that the water boiled at normal tempreture.
And wristtwister reported 100% correctly on what he saw.
Still researching the last question.

Just going the opposite direction
The highest boiling point of pure liquid water under normal atmospheric pressure was 200C. It isnt always 100C.


There are differences in the tempreture of boiling points depending on what the container consists of where the boiling of water takes place.

Researching further.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/23/08 07:43 PM)

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#376302 - 01/23/08 09:10 PM Re: Safety [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmnytr72et4

why isn't his hand and the egg steaming after he lifts the egg out?

Top
#376303 - 01/23/08 09:41 PM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmnytr72et4

why isn't his hand and the egg steaming after he lifts the egg out?




Ed,

I see your point.
That video could be any kind of trick.
It could be any fluid with a lower boiling point.
I can see where your leading to but I am still going to pursue the lower boiling point of water research. Its like this forum. Informative.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/23/08 09:43 PM)

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#376304 - 01/24/08 06:41 AM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

WT, it's sortof hard to take your arguments seriously in other threads if you can't see any possible way that you may have been tricked when witnessing this feat. When was this demo, in the 70's? yeah there were alot of supernatural MA claims floating around then. Chinese guys with nominal MA and pretty good magic and acrobatic tricks touring the country post 'Kung Fu' series looking to clean up then go back home.




Thanks for the vote of confidence, Ed... why not just call me a liar outright, rather than beat around the bush? YOU weren't there, didn't see any of it, and yet are the "expert" disclaiming the demonstration. All I did was report what I saw, and NO, I don't think it was a trick. If you want to see a trick, watch some of the "extreme martial arts" demos... not an old zen master quietly talking to a group of people through an interpreter. I suppose the aescetics who starve themselves for two months in Japan don't do that either... but National Geographic did a special on them once. I think the "record" was 66 days and still survived... of course, that's probably a lie too, so don't pay it any attention.

Not one bit of this has anything to do with the discussion that was the purpose of this thread, which was the safety of practicing pressure points "without training". I haven't made any claims or anything that I could do anything extraordinary... simply that I observed a demonstration... and it went to hell in a handbasket from there.

Most of the students I teach have to get past their "preconceptions" of training to learn anything new. Now, I know why...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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