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#376325 - 01/27/08 02:34 PM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I wasn't saying anything Ed, other than the fact that the ordeal of boiling water was once a common practice. I wasn't passing judgement on what it's merits or faults were, or how the "innocent" were protected or the guilty scalded... merely that it was not an "uncommon" practice. The midievil practice was to have a stone or ring retrieved from the pot of water.

I was wondering why you didn't question their methods? Apparently, if a zen master does it, it's a trick... if it's used as a test for witchcraft, it's okay...

Skepticism at its best...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376326 - 01/27/08 05:54 PM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
huh? are you feeling ok? proving mind over matter thru a water ordeal test is no more true than a zen master proving his innocense with the same test.

people weren't expected to pass (unless of course they confessed or converted or otherwise submitted before having to take the test). thats the whole point of it's idiocy: selective discrimination by false methodology based on superstition. crowds didn't show up to see innocent people take a test and set free.

see: Monty Python's Holy Grail for an illustration of the idiocy of this logic. hopefully you'll get the humor. a hint to enjoy it more is to first understand they are being sarcastic in their depiction of medieval justice....but it really wasn't that far off the mark if you read a little about medieval systems of justice. you probably would have been an excellent judge during the 14th century.


question medieval methods? why would I want to do that? they only worked by controling fear and awe of superstitions. it's a wonder they even had the engineering sense to get castles standing by setting blocks on each other.


'trial by water ordeal' as a testament to mind over matter. lol good lord.

you guys can have the rest of the thread. I tried bringing it back on topic twice and failed. btw Grady, thank-you for answering the serious question earlier.

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#376327 - 01/27/08 09:48 PM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Ed,

When trying to convince a person of something, being right and/or having a strong arguement are relatively unimportant. What matters most is whether the person WANTS to believe you. If they do not, if your idea robs of them of some sacred belief (however irrational or silly), they will simply refuse to believe you.

This is what is happening now with wristtwister.

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#376328 - 01/27/08 10:20 PM Re: Safety [Re: fileboy2002]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
it's not about that, and it's not personal. it's about refuting irresponsible info/ancedotes and challenging the non-critical thought process.

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#376329 - 01/27/08 11:54 PM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I realize it is not personal. BTW, I am thrilled to see a fellow skeptical rationalist on this board.

But anyone with a non-rational thought process is, in an odd way, protected by it.

A rationalist cares about what is true; he or she feels compelled to bow to reality.

A non-rationalist only wants to keep believing whatever makes them happy and will go to amazing lengths to resist losing their illusions.

But good luck trying (Lord knows I have!).

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#376330 - 01/28/08 12:22 AM Re: Safety [Re: fileboy2002]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
skeptical rationalists have a curse: by our own logic we have to always consider the possibility that WE are wrong.

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#376331 - 01/28/08 06:49 AM Re: Safety [Re: fileboy2002]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Congratulations... I'm sure only "true thinkers" should be allowed to exist in society... You guys going to be through patting each other on the back sometime soon?

Since you're so proud of being skeptical rationalists, it might help everyone else to see your agenda...
http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/manifesto.html

While it lauds the accomplishments of such skeptics as Darwin and Carl Sagan, even their agenda left open the option to actually see a new idea...

Ed said:
Quote:

skeptical rationalists have a curse: by our own logic we have to always consider the possibility that WE are wrong.


... it just never seems to happen, so you might as well take that out of the equation.

Quote:

But anyone with a non-rational thought process is, in an odd way, protected by it.




Perhaps, it's that people with faith in others doesn't have to see their scars to know they had an injury...

Quote:

A rationalist cares about what is true; he or she feels compelled to bow to reality.




No, they're only interested in "being right"... and will argue until hell freezes over to make themselves appear right... never considering what Ed so clearly understands but never admits (unless done with some snide comment or snarl).

Quote:

A non-rationalist only wants to keep believing whatever makes them happy and will go to amazing lengths to resist losing their illusions.




I think that your operative word in that statement is "illusions"... for nothing in science would ever be discovered if "possibilities" weren't examined... exactly what all you "wonderfully skeptical people" claim to do, but never get around to doing. Even Carl Sagan used to say on his television specials... "consider the possibilities"...

This entire rant by you and Ed is disputing something I said that I observed over 45 years ago. In true skeptical fashion, you clearly think it was a trick. I'm willing to say "fine, tell me how it was done"... because I was there, and you weren't . I saw the whole thing, watched the preparations for it, and listened to the lecture.

Your "proof" is simply stating that "it can't be done"... and then going on to quote all kinds of statistical scientific information that I already knew. You have to have some knowledge of thermodynamics to do high-pressure boiler design, so superheated fluids, and heat transfer are familiar to me. Just to add to your arsenal, water is between 30 and 60 times more conductive than most heat transfer mediums...

So now, tell me how the "trick" was done...

All I did was report what I saw happen... I didn't embellish it, and the only reason I believe it is because I saw it. That's not "irrational"... it's simply reporting what went on.

When you guys get through telling us how smart you are, how about offering me an explanation of how the trick was done... I've been waiting endlessly for that information.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376332 - 01/28/08 07:42 AM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

how about offering me an explanation of how the trick was done...




I've already tried. you want to believe 'mind over matter' in a literal sense - no matter what. evidenced by you citing a firewalking example (which is a psychological task of mind over yourself) to make your case, which tells me you don't see the difference.

the scope of your misunderstanding deepens with the water ordeal. but this thread is a living example of how logic from a medieval justice system could survive for so long by appealing to people's conditioned beliefs and socially instilled superstitions.

try this: imagine a man in a clown suit doing the boiling hot water trick - then after making you your favorite balloon animal. instead of it being a "wise old zen monk" or however the person visiting was built up in your psyche. does the view of what happened change?

you bet it would. a clown does tricks, we learn and are conditioned. A Zen monk, we take seriously - they don't do tricks, our mental conditioning tells us.

so if a clown comes out in a Zen preist's garb and we are told by people we trust that this guy is a Zen preist - we are bound to think of his tricks as something other than tricks.

same exact thing with what the accupuncture test show. take a real accupuncturist and a sham accupunturist - compare their patients feedback and there is no significant difference in the % of people 'feeling better'.

how does that work? perception is people's reality.

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#376333 - 01/28/08 10:19 AM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Indeed.

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#376334 - 01/28/08 11:07 AM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




So now, tell me how the "trick" was done...

All I did was report what I saw happen... I didn't embellish it, and the only reason I believe it is because I saw it. That's not "irrational"... it's simply reporting what went on.




Hi

I think that was stated and I agree.





When you guys get through telling us how smart you are, how about offering me an explanation of how the trick was done... I've been waiting endlessly for that information.






Well I think Ed did attempt to explain it. I am still looking in to it. But you are correct. Someone merely stating it cant be done with out some attempt at an explanation doesn't hold much water.

Hot or cold.

Read that the boiling point of water can come down about 7 degrees c from app 100 c. So slowly getting there. Still to hot though.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/28/08 11:09 AM)

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