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#376315 - 01/24/08 09:45 PM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I already answered that question in stating what I saw done at the demonstration... I'm waiting for the explanation of how they tricked me. Did the zen master have some kind of coating on his hand? Did he hypnotize us? Did he have a hidden air line running into the pot causing it to bubble? How did he dissipate the heat from the burner?

Now that you've convinced me that I didn't see what I saw, you owe me an explanation... at least a plausible theory of how I was tricked. I'd really like to know, so it doesn't happen again.

By the way, Ed... ever go in a steam room?






Hi Wristtwister.

I know you asked Ed the question but if you allow me to comment.

I dont think it was a trick and I dont think you were tricked. Tricked would mean that it wasnt water or they used a chemical to add for the bubbling and a heat resistance pot. That would seem to me like a complicated set up.
From what I am studying the boiling point of water can be brought down. If it can be brought down enough for a person not to get burnt under the same circumstances as the demonstration you observed, I havent found that yet. Still looking.
It can certainly go up. If it can be brought down then you werent the only person that assumed the demonstration on face value.

So I think everything you saw was true. If the guy was a Zen monk then perhaps the lesson was as I explained. . I am only speculating.

I dont think anybody is doubting what you saw. If you saw it boiling then fine. They are doubting that when he put his hands in to the water it could have been 100 c when boiling.

Jude.



Edited by jude33 (01/24/08 09:50 PM)

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#376316 - 01/24/08 09:56 PM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
nevermind WT, it was real. defying the laws of physics is possible when you wish upon a star and cross your fingers.

don't cross your big toe though, cuz that will negate the magic.

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#376317 - 01/24/08 09:59 PM Re: Safety [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Brian,
it doesn't make me feel foolish... My take on it is that when you can say that what I saw "didn't happen", then there is an explanation owed to explain it. I certainly don't hold it against anybody that chooses not to believe it... after all, I was there, and they weren't. There are lots of things I can't explain, but I'm sorry... I don't make up stuff just to throw it out there. All I did was report what I saw as a demonstration at a lecture. If somebody wants to refute it, they owe an explanation of how the trick was pulled off.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376318 - 01/25/08 01:07 AM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Brian,
it doesn't make me feel foolish... My take on it is that when you can say that what I saw "didn't happen", then there is an explanation owed to explain it. I certainly don't hold it against anybody that chooses not to believe it... after all, I was there, and they weren't. There are lots of things I can't explain, but I'm sorry... I don't make up stuff just to throw it out there. All I did was report what I saw as a demonstration at a lecture. If somebody wants to refute it, they owe an explanation of how the trick was pulled off.






Ever watch David Blaine? How about Chris Angel?

ooooohhhhhh....
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#376319 - 01/26/08 06:56 PM Re: Safety [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Clearly, you and Ed read the classics.

Cicero said "when you have no basis of argument, abuse your opponent".

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376320 - 01/26/08 10:37 PM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I wasn't aware of that quote...but I see you were.

we've traded them back and forth, WT - no sense in trying to take the high road now.


is it ok if we change the subject back to the thread topic now?

I have a question about what was mentioned earlier in regard to 'depth' of a PP strike. can depth (I assume you mean impact penetration) safely be practiced in 2-person drills? The only way I'm familiar is thru impact pad and heavy bagwork training...is there another way to train depth of strikes? Thanks, an no, this isn't a trap - honest question.

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#376321 - 01/26/08 11:10 PM Re: Safety [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

'depth' of a PP strike


relates to the nerve/blood vessel location in the body and yes, it is an "impact penetration" skill. Some of what I call "area PP" like the carotid sinus merely require a slap to damn near kill somebody, and I don't allow anybody to poke around on people's necks much. That's what the "training Bobs" are for, and you can practice location strikes on them just as well as a living, breathing partner, and get the same results when you actually use the points for real.

You can also practice getting the correct strike angles, etc. without much alarm over hitting the windpipe, etc. by accident when trying to strike throat points. The Japanese systems usually use fists, ippon ken, "phoenix eye", etc. for striking them, but some of the Chinese systems use different "hand orientations", such as "crossed fingers" and "claw" hand striking methods and each one demands skill training in how to penetrate to the target. Since you don't believe in chi, I'll leave it at that. Let's just say that "depth of penetration" is workable using the training Bobs... they just don't give you much feedback. Your ukes will, however, if and when they wake up.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376322 - 01/27/08 02:40 AM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Brian,
it doesn't make me feel foolish... My take on it is that when you can say that what I saw "didn't happen", then there is an explanation owed to explain it. I certainly don't hold it against anybody that chooses not to believe it... after all, I was there, and they weren't. There are lots of things I can't explain, but I'm sorry... I don't make up stuff just to throw it out there. All I did was report what I saw as a demonstration at a lecture. If somebody wants to refute it, they owe an explanation of how the trick was pulled off.






This is the most backwards logic i've ever seen, even on internet forums. It's you that saw and believe in the trick or demo or whatever, therefore it's your responsibility to prove it if you want people to accept bending the laws of physics as reality, why aren't you guys getting this?

It's the same as with anything else, if you are saying "hey believe in this" it is your job to provide a compelling reason why anyone should, and so far you haven't even come close.

No one needs to try and disprove a guy not getting burned by hot water because we could all go put it to the test right now, and guess what i'll bet we'd all come back scalded. But hey, feel free to experiment I guess....

Do we owe people who are convinced that UFO's abducted them an explanation of why they're wrong? NO of course not, it is in their hands to prove that they were abducted.

What about the Jehovah's Witnesses at your door, do you need to disprove their arguments, no; that's why they're at your door, to attempt to prove their arguments to you.

I really am astonished at arguments like this, you are essentially accusing people of being closed minded for not accepting at face value that someone did something which is normally impossible, why on earth would you expect people would feel compelled to believe this?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/27/08 02:41 AM)

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#376323 - 01/27/08 11:09 AM Re: Safety [Re: Zach_Zinn]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

No one needs to try and disprove a guy not getting burned by hot water because we could all go put it to the test right now, and guess what i'll bet we'd all come back scalded. But hey, feel free to experiment I guess....




Zach, the "test of boiling water" was a common test during midievil times, and used as a witchcraft trial. Clearly, there were people who survived it without damage, or they would have been declared witches...

As for backwards logic, let's try this... I was throwing a ball with my dog in the back yard yesterday. When I threw the ball, the dog chased it... but she brought back a squirrel toy that we also throw for her.

Now, all I did was report what happened and what I saw. If you argue "you threw her favorite toy", you'd be wrong. If you argue, "you didn't actually throw a toy", you'd be wrong. If you argue, "she didn't know which toy you threw", you'd be wrong. Those were things I actually participated in... I picked up a toy, and I threw it.

Now, I'm reporting that the dog brought back something different from what I threw. She brought back her favorite toy... but how do I know it's her favorite? I'm guessing.

Now, I could be lying about the whole incident, or I could be accurately reporting what I did and what I saw... which is exactly what I did with the zen demonstration. You begin to argue that the dog actually brought back the toy I threw... or that I didn't actually throw anything... or I never went in the backyard to play with the dog.

Now, in neither case were you there to disprove anything... and in both cases, I accurately reported what I saw. If there was a "trick" involved in it, I have no knowledge of how it was done. It all looked pretty cut and dried to me.

I wouldn't try to tell you what went on at you last family reunion, and when you argue logically you make your case and someone else makes theirs. It's up to the reader to make up their mind who's accurate.

This isn't a "UFO" story... it's simply a demonstration that I observed back in the 1960's. You can believe it or not... I don't really care. I'm not lobbying either way.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#376324 - 01/27/08 12:30 PM Re: Safety [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:


Zach, the "test of boiling water" was a common test during midievil times, and used as a witchcraft trial. Clearly, there were people who survived it without damage, or they would have been declared witches...





oh boy. you bring up the water ordeal.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/water-ordeal.html
Quote:

Then let the hand that is to be placed in water be washed with soap and let it be carefully examined whether it be sound; and before it is thrust in let the priest say: I adjure thee, O vessel, by the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, and by the holy resurection and by the tremendous day of judgement, and by the four evangelists, that is this man is guilty of this crime, either by deed or by consent, let the water boil violently, and do thou O vessel, tuen and swing.

After this let the man who is to be tried plunge in his hand and afterwards let it be immediately sealed up. After the ordeal let him take a drink of holy water. Up to the time of the decision regarding the ordeal [a period of three days was allowed to elapse before the hand was examined] it is good thing to mix salt and holy water with all his food and drink




so now you are saying it's not 'mind over matter' but more a question of your innocence which protects you?

and by the way, have you ever heard of anyone being found 'innocent' during superstitious-led 'trials'? the accusation itself was the trial. the ordeal was the 'proof' to witnesses in order to feel some sort of higher justice was served.

With all due respect, you have got to be kidding me.


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