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22740 Members
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Max Online: 307 @ 02/21/13 09:36 AM
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#376275 - 01/19/08 11:54 PM
Re: Safety
[Re: jude33]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
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I was not being sarcastic, jude33. I taught ESL for years and you sometimes form sentences in a way that reminds me of my students.
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#376276 - 01/20/08 12:10 AM
Re: Safety
[Re: fileboy2002]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
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Quote:
I was not being sarcastic, jude33. I taught ESL for years and you sometimes form sentences in a way that reminds me of my students.
It is somewhat irrelevant if I am a native English speaker or not.
If you cant understand something I have written then state what it is you don’t understand.
Generalising after the event doesn’t really have much of a function.
So back again to the topic in question.
Pressure points
Jude
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#376277 - 01/20/08 01:31 AM
Re: Safety
[Re: jude33]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
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It is relelvant whether you are a native speaker of English. As I read what you write, I see only two possibilites:
1) English is not your native language. If that is the case, it explains why your phrasing comes accross as odd and I have a hard time understanding you.
2) English is your native language and you are being deliberately rude, evasive, and obtuse.
If I don't know what the problem is, I cannot know what attitude to assume towards you.
As for pressure points I have already stated they are real and important to learn about. I knew little about them until I started studying judo, which relies on a knowledge of the bodies pressure points.
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#376278 - 01/20/08 01:40 AM
Re: Safety
[Re: wristtwister]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
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I never questioned the truth of the story you told. I questioned your interpretation of it as "evidence" of mind over matter. There is a principle in science called Occum's Razor, which states the simplest explanation for a phenomenon is most likely to be the right one. It seems more likely to me that the hand-in-boiling-water routine was some kind of staged gimmick--why did he happen to have a pot, water, and fire source ready at a martial arts demo, of all things?--and not an example of extraordinary powers. As far as firewalking goes, you might want to read the following: http://www.pitt.edu/~dwilley/Fire/FireTxt/fire.htmlThat is another page of the very same source you cited, so please do not dismiss it.
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#376279 - 01/20/08 02:52 AM
Re: Safety
[Re: wristtwister]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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people never cease to amaze me...firewalking as evidence of mind over matter? firewalking is not about overcoming physical pain, it's about overcoming psychological fear, then physics does the rest. why do you think they have firewalking available at resorts for tourists around the world? because with proper setup, it's safe. here's a cool resort on Fiji: https://www.infohub.com/Lodgings/lodging_pages/1322.htmlQuote:
Nearby attractions and activities:
* Massages
* Diving
* Surfing
* Fishing
* Entertainment
* Cultural experience
* Firewalking
* Local Village Tours
* Snorkel
* Kayaking
* Water-skiing
* Hiking to the waterfalls
* Secluded beach picnic
* Play volleyball, horseshoes or croquet
* Bird watching
see? firewalking is as safe as birdwatching. lol
I think one of the misunderstandings when someone automatically believes in the unbelievable is a falure to recognize psychological phenomenon. or perhaps mistranslating the internal psychological into a external paranormal. I gather some are more suceptable than others.
but what has all this got to do with the safety of pressure points?
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#376280 - 01/20/08 07:18 AM
Re: Safety
[Re: fileboy2002]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
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Quote:
, I cannot know what attitude to assume towards you.
The attitude of sticking to the topic or subjects related to the topic would be a good start.
Quote:
It seems more likely to me that the hand-in-boiling-water routine was some kind of staged gimmick--why did he happen to have a pot, water, and fire source ready at a martial arts demo, of all things?--and not an example of extraordinary powers.
This is what wristtwister stated.
"but it sure as hell got my attention"
He had observed a man putting his hand in to what he assumed was boiling water. In science people observe things all the time.
It got his attention.
Your quote
Quote:
It seems more likely to me that the hand-in-boiling-water routine was some kind of staged gimmick
If it seems to you that was a gimmick then would you like to prove it was a gimmick?.
There is a great deal of information about science in books to assist you.
Quote:
and not an example of extraordinary powers
Can you? Are you? capable of Scientifically proving it wasnt? I am sitting on the fence here.
If you think it was a trick then how was it done?
I am a student. You claim to be a teacher. Teachers surely are capable of doing research?
And seeing as I am a student, I would like to think I will be cross checking your findings.
Jude
Edited by jude33 (01/20/08 08:11 AM)
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#376281 - 01/20/08 08:04 AM
Re: Safety
[Re: jude33]
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Veteran
Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
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Ed you are quite correct as I understand it, about the fire walk. That is how my coach explained it. It has to do with the contact time and other rather unmystical physical explanations. About 5 senior black belts from my school went to that particular one day event and finished the event by actually doing the fire walk.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!
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#376282 - 01/20/08 09:31 AM
Re: Safety
[Re: fileboy2002]
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like a chiropractor, only evil
Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
It seems more likely to me that the hand-in-boiling-water routine was some kind of staged gimmick--why did he happen to have a pot, water, and fire source ready at a martial arts demo, of all things?--and not an example of extraordinary powers.
Well, if you had bothered to read my original post about it, you would have read that the Judo master from the Kodokan was accompanied by a Zen priest who performed the demonstration regarding the boiling water. It was a two part seminar, and they were completely unrelated as far as martial arts, simply showing the "mind over matter" psychological power of mental training. The two men were simply travelling companions from Japan doing seminars together.
Quote:
I never questioned the truth of the story you told.
I don't think you can get away with that one. Any time you tell me "you didn't see what you saw", you're questioning my veracity. Simply put, I was there... you weren't... and I know what I saw and what was said at the time. If you have some information about the demo that I don't have, I'd like to see it.
As a point for understanding, when I did pollution abatement work, I did thermal design of piping systems... meaning I dealt with thermal conductivity, heat transfer coefficients, fluid mechanics, etc. involving hot and superheated liquids and gases. If not, I probably wouldn't have been as impressed. The only answer I've ever been able to come up with for the ability of the zen master to keep his hand in the liquid was that the air being released by boiling provided some kind of protection or temperature-gradient break on his skin surface... but this was simply a pot of water on a plug-in burner... very simply put, a pot of boiling water... a conduction medium... not radiant heat.
From the article..."It is true that what temperature the flesh becomes will decide whether any injury is suffered or not, but it will be the amount of heat that is transferred from the coals to the feet that will directly influence that. What temperature the coals are at will be only one of the several factors that will influence how much heat is transferred and by how much the temperature of the soles will consequently rise. So, what I believe happens when one walks on fire is that on each step the foot absorbs relatively little heat from the embers that are cooled, because they are poor conductors, that do not have much internal energy to transmit as heat, and further that the layer of cooled charcoal between the foot and the rest of the hot embers insulates them from the coal's. "
Now, without ash to protect his hand, using a thermal-conduction medium of heat transfer, YOU explain what happened. Then, you might well take on the Tibetan monks and explain their abilities as well.
Quote:
It seems more likely to me that the hand-in-boiling-water routine was some kind of staged gimmick
I'm waiting to see the proof of that.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
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#376283 - 01/20/08 01:02 PM
Re: Safety
[Re: wristtwister]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
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how about common sense? is that proof enough? There are more than a few ways to do the trick.
whenever witnessing a trick such as someone putting their hand in boiling water, the skepticism is a process of elimination. first: did the demonstrator allow YOU to touch the water for yourself, immediately before and after his hand was submerged? if not, then that hardly can serve as any kind of proof that his hand was subjected to any kind of scalding heat...since we know slight of hand, chemistry tricks etc could be used to give the appearance of the feat.
you get the idea - visual witness is not enough in order to 'see' most tricks. in fact, most tricks depend on just visual confirmation.
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#376284 - 01/20/08 01:43 PM
Re: Safety
[Re: Ed_Morris]
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like a chiropractor, only evil
Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
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Quote:
There are more than a few ways to do the trick.
Okay, name them...
Yes, there were a number of people who tested the water to make sure it was boiling. No, I did not personally put my hand in it, but my teacher did, and he verified that it was indeed "hotter than he could deal with"...
Quote:
since we know slight of hand, chemistry tricks etc could be used to give the appearance of the feat.
A pot of water boiling on an electric eye-type burner is hardly sleight of hand or chemistry trickery... When I cook soup on one, is that some kind of trickery too? It was what it was... a pot of boiling hot water.
Quote:
whenever witnessing a trick such as someone putting their hand in boiling water
YOU assume it's a trick and weren't there to witness it... I listened to his lecture, and watched his demonstration .
Being skeptical doesn't automatically make you right... even if you want it to be a scam. Too bad you can't be that skeptical in the global warming debate... but, of course, you want that to be true... so it's true as far as you're concerned. Skepticism seems to come and go according to the issues...
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"
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