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#376155 - 01/10/08 08:14 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Does it matter? I feel relatively secure in saying that you will never know or discover what the "original bunkai" is,




Just a question. What would happen if some of the original bunkia could be found?


Jude

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#376156 - 01/10/08 04:21 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:



Does it matter? I feel relatively secure in saying that you will never know or discover what the "original bunkai" is,




Just a question. What would happen if some of the original bunkia could be found?


Jude




What would happen is people would ask you to conclusively prove that it is what you say it is, you would'nt be able to (think about it), and we'd all be back at square one.

But if you think you have one, see above, prove it.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/10/08 04:24 PM)

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#376157 - 01/11/08 08:40 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539





What would happen is people would ask you to conclusively prove that it is what you say it is, you would'nt be able to (think about it), and we'd all be back at square one.

But if you think you have one, see above, prove it.




Well.
I am guessing some of the original bunkia might still exist.
I havent the technical expertise yet to start demonstrate such techniques.

Regards proving it, who can prove anything 100%?

My studies seem to lead to the fact that some original bunkia wasnt lost. More it wasnt passed on to all the students. Certain people still have the knowledge.

It think it is politics, splitting of organisations.Not passing on knowledge. The same as people stating a roundhouse kick doesnt exist in trad kata. ( I dont mean unsu) I think it does.

Just for arguments sake what do you think would happen if certain bunkia was proven to a certain percentage of being the original?

Jude

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#376158 - 01/11/08 10:14 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude,

Out of interest, where do you think the roundhouse kick is in trad kata? I agree not Unsu as the floor based kicks are IMO a scissor takedown (all in the body flip!) that coincidentally look like double mawashi geri.

B.

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#376159 - 01/11/08 10:27 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Barad,

Of course it depends on what you call traditional kata.

In Isshinryu, a variation on the roundhouse kick can be found in Kata SunNuSu (Sunsu)created by Shimabuku Tatsuo. It is sometimes referred to as a Squat kick as you step outside an attack (squatting) and then throw the kick off the floor into the lower abdomen or the side of their lower ribs. More a cross between a front kick and a round kick, similar to the 45 degree kicks used in Kickboxing.

Kyokushinkai also has a kata with high roundkicks in them.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#376160 - 01/11/08 11:29 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Victor,

Fair comment and interesting to know-no disrespect intended to the founder of Isshinryu. I suppose I had in mind the Shorin kata in whatever version, which I think Jude practices within Shotokan, as I do within Kissaki, although I would be interested to know if mawashi appears in Goju or Uechi kata.

Whilst we are on the subject though, my understanding was that mawashi geri was unknown in Okinawan karate prior to karate's introduction into Japan-is that something you would agree with and if so was it something copied from Muay Thai or Wushu perhaps?

B.


Edited by Barad (01/11/08 11:30 AM)

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#376161 - 01/11/08 01:19 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Barad]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
No the roundhouse kick is not a part of Goju-ryu as to say definitely performed inside a Kata, cresent kick is. And heres the spoon to stir this all up, but its implied. They say if a front kick won't fit turn your hip and what do you have a mawashi-geri. Sorry guys I had to throw that in.

Louis Angel Tenish Goju style of Japaness decent USA Goju/Goju-kia has some roundhouse and back kicks in it, but its Katas that he or Urban devoloped.
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#376162 - 01/11/08 02:11 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Barad]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
The origin of the mawashi-uke remains a mystery to me. A friend once attended a clinic with a senior Okinawn instructor, where most of the seniors didn't want to attend another basics section. A student there asked where the roundhouse kick came from and the instructor answered, "in all my decades of karate I've only ever studied one kick." and then showed a kick such as the Isshirnyu version I've decided, which is really a variation on a front kick.

For one thing it is wrong to think the only techniques in a system are in the kata, the kata just contain what they contain. Other kicks can be in a system just not kata study.

I kind of think the real progression may have been from Japan (remember the shotokan and shito-ryu were tight at the top), and many new shotokan black belts in the 30's would have been in the military and/or civil service, controlling korea and/or invading china. A real fun time if you were Japanese I guess. So they may have seen roundhose kicks in Korea or China. Or it may have come from their own studies how you can use kicks. Or it may have been a traditional Okinawan kick, just not shared openly.

If that theory has legs, the import to Japanese karate might have made it's way back to Okinawa, or it may not have.

Or it may have been Oyama (who was Korean) who trained in Japan in Shotokan (Funakoshi) and Goju (Yamaguchi) and formed Kyokushinkai.

Technically the roundhouse kick was not in the Isshinryu basics, but from the time I studied it was always in my instructors basics (so he got it somewhere in the intervening years from his intial studies till I started.

Whatever the source when something new was found, it moved around quickly. For example Jhoon Rhee (a big founder of American Tae Kwon Do hadn't seen a korean wheel kick until in the states. It wasn't in Choi's TKD at that time, and at a demo he saw it performed by another Korean instructor. So what is or isn't in a system varies.

A system with one kick isn't weaker than a system with 50. It's how you use what you got. Bill Superfoot Wallace only used 4 kicks (front leg front, roundhouse, side and hook kicks) and he always did pretty well.

As always, the true standard of Okinawa, keep it a secret and don't document it, wins again.


Edited by Victor Smith (01/11/08 02:16 PM)
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#376163 - 01/11/08 04:01 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Victor Smith]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Neko456 said "They say if a front kick won't fit turn your hip and what do you have a mawashi-geri", and Victor talked about the Isshinryu o-toshi geri kick as a modified front kick, which it is.

Some Isshin practitioners really exaggerate the lean of their bodies while doing this kick, while I think, like Neko & Victor, it just has to get around the front hip of the opponent.
_________________________

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#376164 - 01/11/08 05:39 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:






What would happen is people would ask you to conclusively prove that it is what you say it is, you would'nt be able to (think about it), and we'd all be back at square one.

But if you think you have one, see above, prove it.




Well.
I am guessing some of the original bunkia might still exist.
I havent the technical expertise yet to start demonstrate such techniques.

Regards proving it, who can prove anything 100%?

My studies seem to lead to the fact that some original bunkia wasnt lost. More it wasnt passed on to all the students. Certain people still have the knowledge.

It think it is politics, splitting of organisations.Not passing on knowledge. The same as people stating a roundhouse kick doesnt exist in trad kata. ( I dont mean unsu) I think it does.

Just for arguments sake what do you think would happen if certain bunkia was proven to a certain percentage of being the original?

Jude




Well, can you define "original bunkai"? Original to what, Karate or the southern Chinese styles the kata came from?

How do multiple interpretations and the concept of ura-waza fit in with "original bunkai"? Who has the original bunkai, are Seikichi Toguchi bunkai oyo drills the original Goju, or are Taira sensei's? What about Chinen's Goju bunkai drills, which one is the original?

I personally think for the most part the idea itself is fallacious, there is a methodology for understanding kata bunkai, not an original one to one relationship to waza.

Anyway, if you know of some way to get beyond conjecture with such a thing, go ahead and explain it. It's all just theory so like I said, prove it.

Can you please elaborate on what in your studies makes you think that someone has an original bunkai, throwing around vague stuff like that really clouds things, no offense.

Also, again it would be helpful to know what flavor of Goju you are training in to get some perspective; particularly if you're claiming that said training is somehow leading you close to an "original bunkai".


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/11/08 05:42 PM)

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