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#376125 - 01/03/08 04:07 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#376126 - 01/04/08 11:20 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: bo-ken]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

First off I would like to know if your karate school only teaches striking? That means strikes/kicks with no throws or ground fighting. If you don't teach hip throws then you shouldn't teach hip throws in Bunkai.




Why not? If you are teaching hip throws in bunkai...then you are teaching hip throws.

Quote:

I am bringing this up because a lot of people have posted videos of Bunkai where there wasn't any throws, takedowns, or joint manipulation. Some schools teach striking only so there Bunkai should reflect what they are learning. Besides who are we to say how karate katas work.




"We" are the karate practitioners who determine how the kata works. Therefore "we" are who says how "our" kata works. Wrestlers can't determine it and neither can your great aunt selma.

Quote:

I always tell my students that karate is the art of transitions because we have a little bit of all ranges of combat. Not as much ground techniques as a BJJ school however there is a lot of grappling in karate. So before we knock how some people train katas remember not everyone trains like you. I wouldn't call a Kyokushin fighter weak and he only punches and kicks. Let me know your thoughts.




Grappling,yes, groundfighting,no, that's the difference.

Kata is done on your feet,not on the ground. Therefore, "we" can determine that the bunkai is on your feet.
I really don't see how this confuses people.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#376127 - 01/05/08 08:19 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Jude: Here's a project for you regarding the Chin-na thing, find a "Chinese" technique that you think can't be found in other arts, post the name and we will find out whether or not that is so. Just because you don't see Karateka using it, doesn't mean they aren't.






I think I will pleasently decline that offer on the basis of being a mere student.
Could I suggest a project for you? Name me some Chinese influenced techniques found in Goju ryu sepai kata? They are going to have to be Chinese based given the roots of sepia.

I realy cant see how your seeing your art as pure striking?.
And the fact you will pass that on to your students?

I am very much getting the impression of the Japanese / western influence here. Judo? Jujitsu? Nothing wrong with them but hardly Chinese unless I have missed something.

But I am a mere student and not a teacher so I am entitled to my views and can sometimes state major mistakes and later admit them.


Jude

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#376128 - 01/06/08 02:44 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I think I will pleasently decline that offer on the basis of being a mere student.
Could I suggest a project for you? Name me some Chinese influenced techniques found in Goju ryu sepai kata? They are going to have to be Chinese based given the roots of sepia.

I realy cant see how your seeing your art as pure striking?.
And the fact you will pass that on to your students?

I am very much getting the impression of the Japanese / western influence here. Judo? Jujitsu? Nothing wrong with them but hardly Chinese unless I have missed something.

But I am a mere student and not a teacher so I am entitled to my views and can sometimes state major mistakes and later admit them.


Jude




Jude, all of the kata in Goju (minus Gekisai, and the other modern created ones) are likely of southern Chinese origin, I know that, and i'm guessing so do alot of people participating in this thread. That wasn't what I was asking.

I really don't care what the Chinese name of the grappling techniques I was taught in Sepai kata bunkai are, it is irrelevant to my training.

Also the assumption they "have to be Chinese" is ridiculous, they may be the same root technique, but Goju is not a Chinese art. That is what determines that.

You can watch videos of some fo the styles Goju is descended from, and it is clear that Goju (and Okinawan Karate in general) has evolved into something different than the Chinese styles that were a part of it's creation.

Do you ever actually read what people post, or just make your own interpretation of it based on your feelings?

I never stated I thought Karate had no grappling, I said that strategicly it relies on striking as the preferred method of attack, if you wanna debate this point i'm really not sure what to say to you, it isn't exactly a controversial idea.

I was taught grappling stuff, it is valuable. It seems to me it is common in today's world for Karate people to become over-obessed with the grappling stuff to the exclusion of things that are more pressing.

You also seem to think there is such an animal as "Chinese grappling techniques" than can be easily seperated from Japanese/Okinawan grappling techniques", this is the part i'm arguing with, I don't think it is possible in Karate kata for you to say "this technique comes from X art"....people with alot more knowledge and scholarship than you have pretty much stated that this kind of thinking is just conjecture, because it is.

So:

1) No, I don't teach, nor did I learn some "striking only" version of Karate, and the fact that you won't read what i've actually postied on this very subject (but still insist on arguing with me) is a bit frustrating.

2) Of course Judo and Jujitsu are not Chinese, but if you think you can look in a Chinese grappling art and find a huge amount of Chinese (TM) techniques that cannot be found in any other arts (including but not limited to Judo, Jujitsu, Wrestling) you are simply guilty of some sort of magical thinking.

This is not to say that the grappling in Karate is Judo or Jujitsu, it is neither, it is grappling in Karate and is unique.

Most techniques and principles that are effective can be found in a variety of arts, there may be differences in nuance, teaching method etc. but Chinese arts don't have superior or proprietary methods any more than Japanese arts, Western arts etc. do.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/06/08 03:02 PM)

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#376129 - 01/06/08 02:46 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Grappling,yes, groundfighting,no, that's the difference.

'Kata is done on your feet,not on the ground. Therefore, "we" can determine that the bunkai is on your feet.
I really don't see how this confuses people.'

Brian as you know I agree totally with your view on this one.

With the exception of when we drop to one knee in kata (form my kata set thats once in Chinto, once in Useishi, once in Kusanku off the top of my head),

or the fact that many techniques that work standing do indeed transfer, well enough to ground fighting to a certain level.

But even so we are not talking about prolonged ground fighting and certainly not the kind that transfers well against a trained aggresor.

but this topic has been done to death recently so thats my last word on it!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#376130 - 01/06/08 03:01 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

With the exception of when we drop to one knee in kata (form my kata set thats once in Chinto, once in Useishi, once in Kusanku off the top of my head),

or the fact that many techniques that work standing do indeed transfer, well enough to ground fighting to a certian level.

But even so we are not talking about prolonged ground fighting and certainly not the kind that transfers well against a trained aggresor.




Sho, in what way does training grappling and striking techniques that work standing and can be adjusted to work on the ground for limited periods of time develop techniques that only work against non trained aggressors. If an art does not work against trained aggressors, why study it? In what way does knocking a trained aggressor on the ground, putting your knee on his stomack/ribs, punching him several times in the face, and standing up and walk away not work on a trained aggressor? What about doing the same, only grabbing an arm after punching your opponent and applying a lock and dislocating a shoulder?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#376131 - 01/06/08 03:11 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



You also seem to think there is such an animal as "Chinese grappling techniques" than can be easily seperated from Japanese/Okinawan grappling techniques", this is the part i'm arguing with, I don't think it is possible in Karate kata for you to say "this technique comes from X art"....people with alot more knowledge and scholarship than you have pretty much stated that this kind of thinking is just conjecture, because it is.

you are simply guilty of some sort of magical thinking.





I would like to see the people with a lot more knowledge and scholarships works.
Please direct me to them.
Or just give the names.

The reason is firstly I try to think and work things out. The other part is observations and research mainly as a result from the valid points brought out from the different arguments that have taken place on this forum.
Then there is pure chance I come across things.
I see things differntly.
With all due respect I have heard this argument from other so called experts.
I dissagree. I am learning.
The difference is I dont state I am an expert or teach.

So with out seeing the findings of these people the argument doesnt hold to much.
So as I asked please direct me to them.

Jude

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#376132 - 01/06/08 04:59 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


So with out seeing the findings of these people the argument doesnt hold to much.
So as I asked please direct me to them.

Jude




Well off the top of my head you can read McCarthy's Bubishi, he has plenty of historical documentation of the links between Chinese and Okinawan martial arts, but he clearly labels what is probable due to an abundance of historical fact, and what is conjecture and speculation.

Nowhere that I recall does he make statements that X technique is most definitely descended from X system, there are some links with the kata and techniques that one can speculate on, but that's what it is..speculation

Do you honestly think you have a way to "prove" that a grappling technique taught in a style of Okinawan Karate is definitively a technique from a certain Chinese art?

You can compare them side by side, but short of direct empirical knowledge of who trained with who it seems unlikely that you will be able to track a technique froms style to style with any degree of success.

Further complicating it is the fact that alot of these techniques are found in alot of different arts, including Japanese-based grappling arts that many latter-day Karate masters cross-trained in (plenty of whom practiced Okinawan, not Japanese Karate), or at least had a fair amount of exposure to.

Here are some good links from McCarthy's site:

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/Myth_Busting.htm

this one is still under construction, but it'll probably be very informative when finished.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/old-style_karate.htm

more soon

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#376133 - 01/06/08 07:14 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'Sho, in what way does training grappling and striking techniques that work standing and can be adjusted to work on the ground for limited periods of time develop techniques that only work against non trained aggressors. If an art does not work against trained aggressors, why study it? In what way does knocking a trained aggressor on the ground, putting your knee on his stomack/ribs, punching him several times in the face, and standing up and walk away not work on a trained aggressor? What about doing the same, only grabbing an arm after punching your opponent and applying a lock and dislocating a shoulder?'

Hey Marcel, I thought I might hear back form you on this one, we have discussed similair before but for the benefit of the thread.....

I feel that karate is primarily a stand up, striking led art with strong elements of stand up grappling, and very little emphasis or indeed experience of prolonged ground work.

To put it simply trying to force an effective ground submission against someone who specialises in that range and method is going to be hard work for a karateka, MMA has shown this to be true.

hence my acceptance that karate is not a strong art in that area - in the main, for most as there will always be individuals who are good fighters in all ranges.

However actual experieince has shown me that I can apply certain standing kata techniques on the ground, admitidly in the dojo, with resistance - but usually against people of significant less experience and skill than me.

My exploits into grappling classes has shown me that in that arena I can scrape by,

but ultimatly anyone who has solid experience in grappling on the ground is going to beat me there as I come from a karate, stand up background.

accepted cross training does resolve that - but thats not classical karate as in kata then is it?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#376134 - 01/06/08 08:08 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: shoshinkan]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
you could always move past the bunkai, and technique. and apply the same principles as ground defenses. some techniques in hapkido and jujutsu for example are this way in nature. but not necessarily "rolling" like bjj, judo, sambo. etc.

if you're in a horse stance punching someone in front of you, it really isnt that different from being in the mount position and punching someone is it?
_________________________
you can do anything you want to...you just cant always do it alone
to ask is a moments shame, not to ask, and remain ignorant is a lifelong shame

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