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#376115 - 01/01/08 03:58 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Stormdragon]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Well yeah good proportion. I suppose striking only is fine if you want to win/survive 1/3-1/2 of your fights.




C'mon man, read the posts and post something constructive in response, no one said you should never, ever practice grappling, the issue at hand is what the central emphasis of Karate training should be.

Are you going out and spending alot of time fighting grapplers or something BTW?

Or are you just making some generalization based on your own wacky informal analysis of MMA bouts?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/01/08 04:04 AM)

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#376116 - 01/01/08 04:32 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Thread title: STRIKING ONLY
You read.
I'm sorry for the confusion but I didn't mean you said that I was just responding to that idea that I percieved to be sort of floating around. Hence why I said "Well yeah good proportions." I should've said "Yes you do need good proportions of various categories of techniques in your training as you seem to be getting at>"
Anyway my postulate was that striking only is incomplte and makes you vulnerable thus you need sifficient grappling training in the areas of takedown/throwing defense, submission and ground n pound defense, positional control, and overall knowledge of how to escape or dominate in the grappling game, at least at a basic level and not necessairly at the level of a pure BJJ practitioner. I cited the early UFC as examples of what happens when a pure striker fights a pure grappler who maybe only has the most basic striking game. The grappler almost always wins. So train grappling and defense against grapplign and clinch work at least a somewhat functional degree especially againstt the street style grappling that usually occurs for example headlocks combined with punches or ragging the opponent to the ground, head and arm throws, etc.
Wacky analysis how?
And my opinion is Karate's most powerful weapons are strikes from basic clinches. Grabbign an arm and striking, or grabbing the wrist and then striking the extended elbow, grabbing the inner part of the upperarm when the opponent throws a punch and striking the throat.
Anyway doesn't it depend on ryu, I mean some may include much more grappling than others, and some may include more striking.
For example Kyokushinkai is far different from Wado Ryu or Goju, Shorin Ryu is very different from Uechi, etc. I think you're generalizing Karate honestly.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/01/08 04:36 AM)
_________________________
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#376117 - 01/01/08 04:55 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Stormdragon]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well, I have experience only in Shorin and Goju, but honestly I spent a fair bit of time in each, and they contain pretty similar grappling methods in my experience.

In fact i'd be so bold as to say that across the board there is probably broad similarity in Karate grappling methods. If you think that's being too general maybe you should qualify that by explaining to me how exactly they are so different.

Honestly this stuff of using the early UFC's to validate your training is...sophomoric imo. I'll leave it at that.

I don't disagree with what you've said here per se, but honestly the question is how that stuff gets trained, and to what degree, not whether it exists in Karate, everybody already knows that.

At this point i've been way too long winded (sorry) and said everyhting I want to say, have fun with the thread, and with criticizing all those pesky non-grappling bunkai!

And happy freakin' new year!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/01/08 05:03 AM)

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#376118 - 01/01/08 05:27 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Well yeah I mean all the various forms of Karate have similar sources, is Te or To-Te or whatever, Okinawan Wrestling methods, and then several forms of Chinese martial arts.

Now the differences mainly arise with the varying forms of Kunf Fu but also, in my research I've found that different classes of Okinawans used different methods. If I remember correctly, the law enforcement community used more restraint and pressure point strikes, as did the bodyguards of the ruling class, and the peasants and I'm assuming criminals would've used more strike oriented, less "fancy" but very functional and direct methods. I'd theroize that the the ruling class would use somewhat more stylized techniques as well just because very high class people tend to be focused on finesse. But that's pure opinion.

Then with the Chinese arts brought in, you have multiple experts teaching various systems which are largely what each Kata is based on: a separate Chinese system usually mixed with Te. For example Kasanku.

So there will be some differences in emphasis and techniques of course. And then the Japanese forms of Karate are far different i nthese respects I mean Wado contains huge amoutns of ggrappling in comparison to say Shotokan or Shorin Ryu (though Shorin ryu does have a lot of grappling as well from what I've seen and been told from others here) as one of it's main bases is a grappling system but it is still a form of Karate. Shotokan was modified to be more a form of exercise and discipline and seems to contain primairly the msot basic punch/kick/block/ linear techniques and Goju looks to have lots of grappling (It would seem that way to me at first glance even due to so many circular movements).

It does only matter how it is trained in a practical sense, but if you're creative you can probably find plenty of grappling in any of them. But the fact that you CAN find whatever techniques you like if you look for them doesn't mean they were intended to be there and just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.

If you say that what matters is how it;s trained then the origional intentions of what the techniques are for would mean little as you can find anythign you really look for whether it was intended to be there or not. If it works then that's the important thign which is my opinion although it's interesting to try and figure out what the intentions were.
Oh by the way, yes guys really like to grapple and wrestle when they fight here.
And just becasue the ufc is cliche now doesn't change the fact that it had a lot to say about the nature of fighting.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/01/08 05:31 AM)
_________________________
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#376119 - 01/01/08 06:47 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Well yeah good proportion. I suppose striking only is fine if you want to win/survive 1/3-1/2 of your fights.




C'mon man, read the posts and post something constructive in response, no one said you should never, ever practice grappling, the issue at hand is what the central emphasis of Karate training should be.






The central emphasis trained in karate will be dependent on the intended use. Unless I have missed something can I ask what is your intended use?

If it is for fighting as in no holds barred then I think most things will have to be trained.
In that scenario the first thing that should be trained is how to sprint. Fast.

Most so called street fighters seem to be strike orientated, then I would agree striking must be trained to a fairly high level but that doesnt mean to say the rest of the stuff in trad karate(although specialist users might have to be sought to train throws etc) and ground fighting shouldnt be emphasised as intensely. There are certain people in this world that can absorb a lot of punishment. However a person restricting the blood flow to the other persons brain via the neck is something they cant.

And yes I know there are a pile of variables like his friends etc etc but shouldnt stop a person being able to use the stuff.


Look at people like Geoff Thompson. All aspects of fighting are covered. Including fighting from the knees.

And from my limited experience I agree.

Can I make a suggestion. Get some padding lie on the deck and have a pile of students throw kicks with shoes on then see if striking gets you to your feet. Funny enough I have observed high ranking shotokan guys using the very same technique of stomping/kicking a downed opponent although they were pulled they were certainly intended.

Are you basing your findings of striking on training pure begginers?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/01/08 06:59 AM)

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#376120 - 01/01/08 10:20 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think in light of the question, upon reflection...

striking should be the main emphasis early on, but grappling should definately not be ignored during early stages, just not emphasized as much. in any art.
i believe any student of any self defense art should know at least osoto gari, and a basic hip throw, as well as wrist/garment grab escapes before orange belt.

i looked at it as...if someone came into your dojo and signed up for 6 months of training, and you had to do your best to prepare them for ...whatever...what would you teach them? ..personally i'd say not karate. there are faster ways to get to useable self defense quicker than having to learn basics, then learn kata, and one steps, then tear the kata apart, and then practice the techniques and such. ..but given that this post is on a karate forum..obviously you'd have to take a kata perspective on the subject. anyway...i'd agree that striking is more important initially.


Edited by kempo_jujitsu (01/01/08 10:51 PM)
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#376121 - 01/03/08 12:07 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Stormdragon]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Striking in Karate

One of the earliest commentaries on the role of striking in karate can be found in the writing of Mabuni Kenwa in 1938. Joe Swift wrote about this at http://museum.hikari.us/ Search Articles for those of Charles Joseph Swift.

Wisdom from the Past: Tidbits on Kata - Applications from Pre-War Karate Books
Part One by Joe Swift

From the Karatedo Nyumon (1938) by Mabuni Kenwa

And finally, let us take a look at the final section of the book, on throws and joint locks in karate, found on page 209.

“The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually a single part of a large whole. The fact that those who have learned karate in Tokyo think I consists of hand strikes and kicks, and that throws and joint locks are only a part of jujutsu or judo can only be attributed to their lack of awareness on this art. While it can be said that this in an unavoidable situation because only a small part of karate was introduced, this is very regrettable from the point of view of the popularization of karate. Those people who are truly thinking of the future of karate should not keep a closed mind and limit themselves to learning only an empty shell, but should strive to study the complete art.

The Gojuryu kata contain many interesting throws and joint techniques that were not introduced to Tokyo, and the practitioners of that system should never neglect the study of these throws…

The kata of Gojuryu contain a plethora of study materials, so it is suggested that the karate practitioner cultivate a progressive temperament based upon a “strong and free Japanese spirit”.

+ + +

As you see this topic is nothing new but as Mabuni Kenwa suggests and as Mutsu Mizuho showed in 1933’s “Karate Kempo” there is considerable more range in karate kata application than just striking.

As I teach we try and explore as full a range of our kata technique potential as possible. Classical Isshinryu training, itself, explored a range of counters for grabs, locks and even the mount position in its technique studies.

On the other hand I still feel striking as I see it being discussed is very misunderstood. Perhaps that is because only a small part of striking potential is most often studied.

I only accept any technique should be studied to the point that you can stop any attack with it, no matter whether striking, kicking, grappling or whatever.

A full study of karate striking well consists of:

1. Striking directions (rising, descending, outward, inward, forward)
2. Striking tools (fist (turning or vertical), fingers, foreknuckles, thumb, single knuckle strikes, little knuckle strikes, forearm strikes, elbow strikes, shoulder strikes, hip strikes, knee strikes, foot strikes, stepping strikes)
3. Striking targets (combined with the appropriate striking tool) of torso, head and neck, back, legs (inner thigh, outer thigh, shin, instep, calf, knee, hip joint), arms, hands.
4. Tool conditioning (makiwara, bags, etc.)
5. Vital point striking (done with appropriate conditioning) the primary vital point being anywhere in the opponents body
6. Multiple striking (with a single limb, or multiple limbs)

A fighter trained for tournament or full contact only touches a small piece of this training and each in different ways.

How far anyone explores these options depends on the nature of their program of study, and or the time they can put into their training long term. But the full range of striking is often greater than most are looking at.

Even if one is just focusing on striking the goal should be to break down anything offered. Striking the limbs are a primary target, likewise the head, eyes, throat and so forth.

IMO there are no incomplete techniques systems, but their may be incomplete methods of training.
_________________________
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#376122 - 01/03/08 12:26 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Victor Smith]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi
Victor. Forever the prime educator.
I think what you described just backed up my thought process
although more clearly put than my stumblings.

I know it is there. Now its a case of analising/learning/drilling it.

Where is my makiware?

Jude

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#376123 - 01/03/08 12:30 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Makiwara is the Okinawan striking post. For serious striking training it is mandatory to focus the sent of the entire body into strikes.

Of course it requires the time and place to enter such training. I would never allow it for the youth I teach, it is adult long term training, for those who are going to that level of striking.

In today's world it is rare that anyone can do everything. As long as you know what you are and are not studying and why, there is no problem. Everyone does not do everything.

But to fully utilize the art you can't skip steps either.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#376124 - 01/03/08 12:43 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Victor Smith]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Makiwara is the Okinawan striking post. For serious striking training it is mandatory to focus the sent of the entire body into strikes.

Of course it requires the time and place to enter such training. I would never allow it for the youth I teach, it is adult long term training, for those who are going to that level of striking.

In today's world it is rare that anyone can do everything. As long as you know what you are and are not studying and why, there is no problem. Everyone does not do everything.

But to fully utilize the art you can't skip steps either.




Hi

The first thing I did after beggining to study sepia kata was to add different strikes to the strikes I normaly trained on the bag and makiwari.

Such as using the forearm etc. The learned blocks from shuri style karate took on a roll as strikes. Different target areas were catered for.

Then as I kept studying different ways of using parries and a total different way of using and applying arm bars. more trained to damage joints than to cause submission were uncovered.

Body conditioning became even more essential.

Still early days. Still a long way to go.

I think you clarified it in your writings above more than I had. Mine were more stumblings gained from sepai kata study but either way I think the physical/ mental process of gaining the knowledge is going to be slow.




Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/03/08 12:55 PM)

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