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#376105 - 12/31/07 02:50 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: bo-ken]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
In our Trad Okinawan Goju chart in the Bunkia-kumites and Kiso there are throws,locks and counters that look like Jujitsu and some that looks like Gung-fu in that while rolling/breaking the arm you strike the eyes both combatants on the ground. Some would say that everytime you do a low stance downward block kneeling or shikodachi you are armbar takedowning or Cross body throwing. But striking/punching and kicking is the main stay, trapping, pushing, pulling/imbalancing standing grappling is also a big part of the main program.

Most of the locks applied are in a striking mode not the restraining techniques seen in modern Judo or Juitsu most time. Emphasis is on striking or snachting the limb, while the opponent's joint, is angled against your body or knee, so the joint is struck r snapped rather then holding it applying pressure. IMHO.

So no we don't just strike only going way back before grappling was popular. This still Karate.
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#376106 - 12/31/07 03:03 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


What exactly are your findings, how did you come to find them, and why on earth would it matter if throws in the kata is of "chinese origin"? How will you ever know?




Hmmm

Jude didnt put his brain in gear before typing.

From my studies of kata.
There are certain forms from certain areas of china that are some of the katas in karate.. From my observations the applications of the techniques in the kata look nothing like I have seen in Japanese or Western influenced karate.

Then I think there are other kata that might have the taste of judo/ jujitsu looking throws.
Some techniques of what is said to be chinese wrestling I have observed on video does have a resembelence to certain jujitsu throws.

So either jujitsu or chinese wrestling had an infleunce in certain kata or or who ever re-engineered the kata might have changed them to look like judo.

The question I asked about an escape from a side headlock ending up in a throw might bear a resembelence to a ju jitsu technique. I will have to check.
.

So how would you train a student to escape if you dont mind me asking?

I think Neko is on the same wave length.
Just a different way of putting it.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/31/07 03:08 PM)

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#376107 - 12/31/07 03:22 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


So how would you train a student to escape if you dont mind me asking?




Well all the "traditional" escapes from headlock, full nelson what have you is what i'm referring to, look some up on youtube and you'll get the idea, if you want a kata example watch Kururumfa some time and you'll pick it out easy. I don't spend that much time on 'em, but they were taught to me and I think they, along with some "grappling lite" training are of value in karate, just not as a centerpiece.

As to the rest of it, sorry but i'm skeptical that Chin na style grappling is so radically different from anything else, i've done my share or "research" like you, and i've come to the opposite conclusion, only so many ways to make an omlette.

One of the standard Judo escapes from a side headlock i've seen is to perform Ura-Nage, but that usually is presented as going into groundfighting, maybe the one you're referencing is the standard jujitsu type headlock escape like this type of thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5leNdeBHWI





Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/31/07 03:44 PM)

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#376108 - 12/31/07 07:07 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I'm not sure I see the problem with defining karate as just a striking (impact imparting) art as opposed to a wider defined striking, grappling, locking, etc. art.

If you've ever trained with those who spend years on the makiwara and only use one pressure point to strike with great power (anywhere on the body is the pressure point) you can see an awsome level of pain imparted.

Of course all training done with equal focus will gain great result.

A technique that works 100% of the time stopping the opponent seems a rational way to view the arts.

Motobu Chokoi advocated each opening strike to be to the face, and as he spent decades working the single knuckle strike on the makiwara, do you not think such a strike won't have a result? We're not talking covered hand sport strikes, but deep impact, impact trained focused strikes.

I don't advocate one answer, and todays world rarely leaves time for the deep training needed to get to the higher levels, but why doubt that karate as solely a striking art is not a good answer?
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#376109 - 12/31/07 07:42 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Victor Smith]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Because if you have no grappling, clinch, and ground skills you are incomplete and vulnerable and yo ucan't jsut batter everyone who gives yo ua little trouble. Trust me I know that lesson from experience...
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#376110 - 12/31/07 08:25 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Stormdragon]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Because if you have no grappling, clinch, and ground skills you are incomplete and vulnerable and yo ucan't jsut batter everyone who gives yo ua little trouble. Trust me I know that lesson from experience...




On the flipside, if you water down your Karate to the point where you are trying to be master of everything, you will in fact be master of none of these skills.

It's all about proper proportion I guess.

When the crap hits the fan you want a few tried and true dependable skills, not some uber all encompassing art that can cover all bases and possibilities.

Such a thing doesn't exist.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/31/07 08:31 PM)

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#376111 - 12/31/07 11:41 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




On the flipside, if you water down your Karate to the point where you are trying to be master of everything, you will in fact be master of none of these skills.

It's all about proper proportion I guess.

When the crap hits the fan you want a few tried and true dependable skills, not some uber all encompassing art that can cover all bases and possibilities.

Such a thing doesn't exist.





The part about the headlock is the point I was trying to make. The escape is grappling. Pure striking has limited use
I train makiwari etc and I think that grappling is still needed as are the other elements found in trad karate. If you look at John Kogas's input on the boxing thread where I posted the relevent videos it shows that grapplers can easily get to strikers so at the minimum a working knowlege is required.

Regards the research I am happy with my findings.It seems that in different parts of China they use techniques that are in certain kata( and tai chi for that matter) as a village sport. One of the techniques being using the shoulder to knock the opponent over. Cant say I have seen many karate ka using it?

Jude

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#376112 - 01/01/08 02:28 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Well yeah good proportion. I suppose striking only is fine if you want to win/survive 1/3-1/2 of your fights.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#376113 - 01/01/08 02:57 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Stormdragon]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
maybe just my opinion, but why label karate as a grappling art, or a striking art, when obviously it contains both. your school may emphasize one over the other, but that doesn't make everyone who looks for grappling in kata wrong.
i look at it this way...here's a movement...how many ways can you figure out how to use it? a fist isnt necessarily a strike for example...maybe you have something in your hand perhaps?
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to ask is a moments shame, not to ask, and remain ignorant is a lifelong shame

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#376114 - 01/01/08 03:51 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

maybe just my opinion, but why label karate as a grappling art, or a striking art, when obviously it contains both. your school may emphasize one over the other, but that doesn't make everyone who looks for grappling in kata wrong.
i look at it this way...here's a movement...how many ways can you figure out how to use it? a fist isnt necessarily a strike for example...maybe you have something in your hand perhaps?




I don't think there is anyone here who would claim there aren't simple grappling apps in Karate kata, I don't think that's the real issue.


I was taught the traditional Goju grappling stuff, and i've included in it the time i've been teaching. I don't wanna eclipse it or say it shouldn't be taught.

Fact is we only have so much time to do/teach Karate, and the striking stuff is more central, period. That should be a non-issue honestly. How much time are you gonna spend teahcing atemi-waza in a Jujitsu class?

I can't believe anyone wants to debate that Karate's most powerful weapons are it's strikes.

Is the grappling stuff neccessary, yeah of course, it's a part of it, but honestly if you don't understand how you use chudan-uke (something which seems common, at least on forums)you have no business focusing on any kind of grappling movements yet; at least in the teaching framework of Karate (as I know it) you are not at a point where the grappling stuff in kata is going to make any sense to you.

Same thing with adding this stuff to sparring, if you have brand new whitebelts trying to osoto-gari eachother before they can throw a punch or walk right, it is an excercise in futility.

Again, i'm not suggesting that anyone scrap the grappling stuff, but I do feel that often people overlook the stuff that's labeled as "simple" and unrealistic in Karate, largely because they don't understand it, and the grappling stuff (to a Karateka at least) holds the allure of being somehow different.

I understand what you guys are saying, but all I need to do is look at a few of the "grappling" bunkai i've seen on youtube, and it's reminds me of why I feel the way I do. Some of them are lightyears worse than the clips that started this thread, at least this guy looks like his punches would hurt.

Jude: Here's a project for you regarding the Chin-na thing, find a "Chinese" technique that you think can't be found in other arts, post the name and we will find out whether or not that is so. Just because you don't see Karateka using it, doesn't mean they aren't.

Honestly there is nothing new under the sun man, nuance and training may be different but Chinese MA don't have secret techniques that no one else knows.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/01/08 03:53 AM)

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