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#376095 - 12/30/07 03:04 PM Striking Only?
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
First off I would like to know if your karate school only teaches striking? That means strikes/kicks with no throws or ground fighting. If you don't teach hip throws then you shouldn't teach hip throws in Bunkai.

I am bringing this up because a lot of people have posted videos of Bunkai where there wasn't any throws, takedowns, or joint manipulation. Some schools teach striking only so there Bunkai should reflect what they are learning. Besides who are we to say how karate katas work.

I always tell my students that karate is the art of transitions because we have a little bit of all ranges of combat. Not as much ground techniques as a BJJ school however there is a lot of grappling in karate. So before we knock how some people train katas remember not everyone trains like you. I wouldn't call a Kyokushin fighter weak and he only punches and kicks. Let me know your thoughts.

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#376096 - 12/30/07 03:19 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: bo-ken]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

First off I would like to know if your karate school only teaches striking? That means strikes/kicks with no throws or ground fighting. If you don't teach hip throws then you shouldn't teach hip throws in Bunkai.




I don't think it's all that common today for schools to not teach any throwing, jointlocks etc. I really think that how they are taught and where they fit in one's curriculum is the more important question.

Quote:


I am bringing this up because a lot of people have posted videos of Bunkai where there wasn't any throws, takedowns, or joint manipulation. Some schools teach striking only so there Bunkai should reflect what they are learning. Besides who are we to say how karate katas work.





What kata do you practice? I train and teach (only for about a year on the teaching) Goju, and I can say that while throws are present, there are long pieces of kata that are all striking, maybe that's what your seeing?

Honestly I don't think there is much groundfighting in kata, I know there are a couple things in Kusanku, but honestly groundfighting is best trained in dedicated grappling arts IMHO.


Quote:


I always tell my students that karate is the art of transitions because we have a little bit of all ranges of combat. Not as much ground techniques as a BJJ school however there is a lot of grappling in karate. So before we knock how some people train katas remember not everyone trains like you. I wouldn't call a Kyokushin fighter weak and he only punches and kicks. Let me know your thoughts.




Learning throws and standing grappling, and doing drills for both is important I think...but it's still Karate, the strategic framework puts an emphasis on striking for a reason.

I've seen way too many bunkai interpretations that are grasping at straws because people are looking for grappling encounters, I really think this sort of approach goes overboard, and that's with me coming from Goju, a style which has alot of takedowns, throws etc.

I also wonder if one goes overboard on grappling if it isn't easy to lose sight of things that are very important in karate, such as understanding kihon, methods of striking, etc.

For my part this is just my feelings, I haven't been teaching long and I am concerned with imparting what's important to people, so at least for now, I am more concerned about whether my students can move and still have a good root and throw a hard punch than I am with them performing Ogoshi.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/30/07 03:24 PM)

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#376097 - 12/30/07 05:03 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: bo-ken]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I wouldn't call a Kyokushin fighter weak and he only punches and kicks. Let me know your thoughts.




From my limited exposure to Kyokushin this is isn't neccessarily true, you're just talking about Kyokushin tournament rules, i'm guessing they train more outside the confines of tournament rules in the dojo.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/30/07 05:06 PM)

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#376098 - 12/30/07 05:23 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
i think all anyone can do is teach how they were taught. and add their own interpetation. many people didnt learn any grappling applications in karate when it was new to the west. the same was true of tkd when i studied it. but they did zero bunkai..not even striking applications. to me at least, that makes kata a complete waste of time.

i think you can find plenty of joint locks in any style of karate, plenty of takedowns and throws. if you know how to look for them. an example of what i mean..there is a book called 75 down blocks, the entire book is nothing but applications for gedan barai.
i believe originally kata were created from techniques, but over time they largely became lost, so people had to think for themselves and find other applications. now days you can do whatever you want with that technique.

a shito ryu instructor i know said he had to have 5 answers per movement of kata. so the opening movement of pinan shodan for example, had to have a takedown, a striking applicaion, a joint locking application, a throw, pressure points...etc

a subject more open to debate is groundfighting in kata, i believe it is there, as it is an any martial art. its just that...karate is not a groundfighting art. just as bjj is not a standup art. the principles are universal whether standing or groundfighting, if taught that way. i think the techniques are more situational (as is kata bunkai in general i think)
just my opinion
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#376099 - 12/30/07 05:38 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: bo-ken]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA

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#376100 - 12/31/07 03:05 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: hedkikr]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Heh, not to nit-pick but your original post was actually more specifically asking about ukemi and whether or not we practice it, the theme here is a little different I think.

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#376101 - 12/31/07 01:00 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: bo-ken]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Ahh, my current pet peeve! Being an Old Grouch, I always have one handy.

Bunkai that only uses strikes and blocks is, IMHO, "schoolboy" karate. The soul of karate is to put the opponent in a position where he is most "receptive". This usually involves unbalancing, throws and joint manipulation. Magnifies the effect of what you do next.
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#376102 - 12/31/07 01:55 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


For my part this is just my feelings, I haven't been teaching long and I am concerned with imparting what's important to people, so at least for now, I am more concerned about whether my students can move and still have a good root and throw a hard punch than I am with them performing Ogoshi.




Hi

Errm from my limited kata studies I am thinking that in the main the judo/ju jitsu throws that are shown in some kata applications tend to be from re-engineered applications .

I thought BJJ used standing throws as well?

There ( from my findings anyhow) are in kata throws that I find it hard to say about their background and best if at the moment I refer to them as throws that are in karate kata. If they are of chinese origin I dont know yet.

Iron foot
Quote:


Ahh, my current pet peeve! Being an Old Grouch, I always have one handy.

Bunkai that only uses strikes and blocks is, IMHO, "schoolboy" karate. The soul of karate is to put the opponent in a position where he is most "receptive". This usually involves unbalancing, throws and joint manipulation. Magnifies the effect of what you do next.






I think I am on the same wave-length

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/31/07 02:03 PM)

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#376103 - 12/31/07 02:31 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


For my part this is just my feelings, I haven't been teaching long and I am concerned with imparting what's important to people, so at least for now, I am more concerned about whether my students can move and still have a good root and throw a hard punch than I am with them performing Ogoshi.




While in a way I can see your point but how would you train your students to get out of a standing side headlock ? .


I presume there would be a throw?
The escape seems to be in certain kata.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/31/07 02:32 PM)

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#376104 - 12/31/07 02:42 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Errm from my limited kata studies I am thinking that in the main the judo/ju jitsu throws that are shown in some kata applications tend to be from re-engineered applications .





Does it matter? I feel relatively secure in saying that you will never know or discover what the "original bunkai" is, and btw...Judo throws aren't a brand name...the technique in this example known as ogoshi is found in a myriad of different arts. What was your point? That I should befocusing on teaching Ogoshi instead of worrying about silly stuff punching and kicking and "blocking"?

For the record I was taught and do teach throwing and falling, joint locks, and what have you; I just find it hilarious when Karate people get obsessed with it over the more prominent techniques. Obviously this is different when we are talking about someone who is teaching both Karate and a grappling art.

Honestly yes there is throwing/joint locking/chokes/escapes what have you in karate, but when you go "researching" kata looking specifically for this stuff and put the "hit him hard" stuff on the back burner it makes for weird results IMO. There are threads all over fora about this very subject and it leads me to believe people (at least Forum-ryu Karate people;)) are a little too obsessed with it.

Quote:


I thought BJJ used standing throws as well?





I assume so in order to get the guy on the ground, I don't think there's alot of emphasis on it though.

Quote:


There ( from my findings anyhow) are in kata throws that I find it hard to say about their background and best if at the moment I refer to them as throws that are in karate kata. If they are of chinese origin I dont know yet.





What exactly are your findings, how did you come to find them, and why on earth would it matter if throws in the kata is of "chinese origin"? How will you ever know?

Sorry just playing devil's advocate here for the most part.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (12/31/07 03:03 PM)

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