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#376175 - 01/14/08 05:48 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

Quote:

Jude,

Out of interest, where do you think the roundhouse kick is in trad kata? I agree not Unsu as the floor based kicks are IMO a scissor takedown (all in the body flip!) that coincidentally look like double mawashi geri.

B.




Karate partner work to establish if the roundhouse is in trad kata. This is just the break down to establish the kick. It isnt the full technique

Face partner right foot to inside partners right foot.
Legs app shoulder width apart.
Distance is so the partner can be grabbed on the left shoulder with the right arm bent.

Bring back the right foot about shoulders width.
Sweep the partners right inside calf with the right foot.
Bring the right knee up slightly angled to the left
Lean to the left while still grabbing the partners shoulder and place a kick to the partners right front thigh with the right shin while turning the hip slightly then allowing the foot to return to the floor

Would that be considered a roundhouse kick?

Jude





Which kata and where are you talking about?

B.

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#376176 - 01/14/08 10:59 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=1

0.12 to 0.21


Kururunfa


From my observations the kick to the thigh with the shin I described is done as a two man drill. It is one of the
options take from the technique.

Like I said I think there were alternative techniques hidden in certain kata.

It appears as a side kick in the kata and would be used as a side kick, but it seems the mechanics of the kick can also be used as I described. Namely the shin to the front of a thigh or even the top of the knee. Which means
the kick takes on the roll as a low roundhouse.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/14/08 11:24 AM)

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#376177 - 01/14/08 05:33 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=1

0.12 to 0.21


Kururunfa


From my observations the kick to the thigh with the shin I described is done as a two man drill. It is one of the
options take from the technique.

Like I said I think there were alternative techniques hidden in certain kata.

It appears as a side kick in the kata and would be used as a side kick, but it seems the mechanics of the kick can also be used as I described. Namely the shin to the front of a thigh or even the top of the knee. Which means
the kick takes on the roll as a low roundhouse.

Jude





I do not see a kick from 0.12 to 0.21. The hip twisting is to support what the arms are doing and also about tenshin.

If you are referring to the 2 kicks in the beginning of the kata (kanzetsu-geri) they are all about taking somebody down or attacking joints (elbow and knees). Never seen it explained as low-kick.
Low-kick in my experience does not work very well when grabbing someone. Distance is to short to give it power.

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#376178 - 01/14/08 07:19 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: CVV]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think it is a stretch to think that there are "roundhouse kicks" in traditional Goju kata, they are a great thing to learn and I was taught them in Goju, but I think it's reasonable to say that in most of the standard bunkai for Goju these sorts of kicks are rare to say the least.

Again, that's not to say roundhouse kicks to the legs aren't a great thing to learn, I just think putting them in Goju kata is a bit of a stretch most of the time.

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#376179 - 01/14/08 07:37 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Several considerations:
1. There are no rules saying all techniques in a system are in the kata. It is quite reasonable that other types of kicking developed in a system in addition to those in kata.
2. Any leg movement can be interpreted as a kick. So front kicks (with the ball of the foot) are as much indonesian shin kicks to the inside of the thigh to blow out the leg) as they can be interpreted as round kicks.
3. There is a tradition of 'kakushite' expressed by Femio Demura long ago. Extra techniques added to a kata in private study that are never performed in practice. So even if you don't see the round kick potential in the kata, there may well be 'secret' round kicks being taught. This is just like Hiagonna Morio explaining that any punch might also be a single knuckle strike.

I don't doubt the round kick wasn't a big tool in the past, say 100 years ago, but in the last century other influences were added. It's not documented when, but I doubt there are many Goju programs in the world today that don't include the study of mawashi-geri someplace in their programs.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#376180 - 01/15/08 04:19 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doci...h&plindex=1

0.6 to 0.12

Jude
Quote:




Low-kick in my experience does not work very well when grabbing someone. Distance is to short to give it power.






I havent physicaly explored the potential of the techniques.
0.6 to 0.12.

Where I described the grabbing part was realy for a demo only.


But.
I think the techniques are meant to be more for off balance-ing. Like stepping on the foot or using the knee behind their knee to break balance or foot sweeps, while/then striking.

I think some of the chinese systems have the same strategy.

Early days though.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/15/08 05:15 AM)

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#376181 - 01/15/08 11:23 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I find that grabing and positioning a person weigh over his knees while pulling him off balance it doesn't take much to injury the leg if you kick it. This happens all the time in fast cutting sports like, base/basket/football r socker and they do it to themselves without a kick to that joint. A snap kick will do it pretty easy, it doesn't take much power. You don't even have to kick the knee anywhere from above the knee to the lower shin, their body weight is the real force that does the damage. My 2 cent.

This is just my opinion there are alot of techniques implied in Karate, just like its history the orgin of these techniques may never be known. And just think how long a Kata would be if it used every technique in Karate's arsenal.

Victor makes a good point, there is history taught that China's Shaolin temple got its fighting/conditioning art from India. I mention this because as Victor stated just looking at one of the 100s of systems of Silat, a step or spin forward in dance, in application can be everything from instep stomp, front kick, roundhouse kick, to almost anything sweep/takedown, the spin can be anything from spining elbow, takedown, spinning back kick hook or thrust. The look of these technique in the dance/kata doesn't look anything like a fight let alone a technique that could hurt someone. It trully looks like dance as in the Dancing Man of Hagi/Miyagi lore. The leg is hardly ever lifted to cocked it looks simply like a step or spinning in as if dancing.

Why is it that we expect exactness in the forms past down to us? Chinese hyungs usually have moves that only the trained eye can tell what it is, it looks like fighting but its not always what it look likes or it has many definition. I do find it strange that Gung-fu has the rhk in there forms but Trad Karate doesn't its only implied, thats what I was told and it works for me. Kung-fu forms are far more complex and usually longer then the simple Katas of Karate, imo.

I like doing Gung-fu forms now bc I know what to look for, but imagine doing this long drawn out form with no idea of what you doing for months, before moving on.

I say, Thank God, for the Okinawans for simplifying the process. Its implied and thats good enough for me. But like the free thinking world we always ask Why or Where if its not plan as the nose on our face.

Another note the roundhouse kick in Goju isn't in any Goju kata as a precise technique but in some of the competitive Goju dojo it is the most popular kick from the thigh to the back of head/head. This is probably true in most dojos now.

Victor interesting note on Jhonn Rhee and the wheel kick, I did note that to Mu-duk-kwan-do's wheel kick was done differently then TKD spin back hook kick. Though traveled the basic same path, almost.


Edited by Neko456 (01/15/08 11:49 AM)

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