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#376165 - 01/11/08 09:00 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




Can you please elaborate on what in your studies makes you think that someone has an original bunkai, throwing around vague stuff like that really clouds things, no offense.






Well it is vague and guess work. With out name dropping there are people still alive that practice karate who are related to the people who in a way were the fore-runners of karate before the style of goju was given a name. My way of thinking is that the bunkia might have been passed down.


This is pure speculation.

Interesting that you see the training methology as aimed at people working out the bunkia.

Jude

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#376166 - 01/11/08 10:57 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude,

Out of interest, where do you think the roundhouse kick is in trad kata? I agree not Unsu as the floor based kicks are IMO a scissor takedown (all in the body flip!) that coincidentally look like double mawashi geri.

B.




Karate partner work to establish if the roundhouse is in trad kata. This is just the break down to establish the kick. It isnt the full technique

Face partner right foot to inside partners right foot.
Legs app shoulder width apart.
Distance is so the partner can be grabbed on the left shoulder with the right arm bent.

Bring back the right foot about shoulders width.
Sweep the partners right inside calf with the right foot.
Bring the right knee up slightly angled to the left
Lean to the left while still grabbing the partners shoulder and place a kick to the partners right front thigh with the right shin while turning the hip slightly then allowing the foot to return to the floor

Would that be considered a roundhouse kick?

Jude

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#376167 - 01/12/08 12:13 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:



Well it is vague and guess work. With out name dropping there are people still alive that practice karate who are related to the people who in a way were the fore-runners of karate before the style of goju was given a name. My way of thinking is that the bunkia might have been passed down.


This is pure speculation.

Interesting that you see the training methology as aimed at people working out the bunkia.

Jude




There is a methodology for understanding bunkai.....it's called kaisai no genri, you can either look it up or I can post a link about it later, it's a pretty wide ranging concept in Goju from what i've seen.

That is what I was talking about, not sure how you interpreted my statement, but this is what I was referencing.

Problem with your argument is that there is no reason that these guys have the "original bunkai" either, they were just the karateka etc. of their own time, and my guess is whatever they learned came from someone else.

If you look at most "traditional flavor" Goju schools you see a fair amount of common ground anyway in terms of bunkai, an argument could be made that this comes down to their understanding the rules of kaisai no genri, whether they are named as such or not.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/12/08 12:32 AM)

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#376168 - 01/12/08 04:06 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


There is a methodology for understanding bunkai.....it's called kaisai no genri, you can either look it up or I can post a link about it later, it's a pretty wide ranging concept in Goju from what i've seen.






Looked it up. Seems others reached the same opinion that certain things were passed on to certain people.

I think the line of study I am doing might be fruitfull.

From what I have looked at about sepia I assume there are hidden techniques.I assume there are variations of the same technique subject to where the target area is in relation to two people being in combat.

I think to some degree information was passed on from the original technique.

But this is all my guess work. Speculation is what the learned types refer to it as.

Jude

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#376169 - 01/12/08 10:43 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
In regard to Goju and bunkai.
From my sources (Takeshi Uchiage, Tomoharu Kisaki, Eiichi Miyazato) Miyagi said in regard to bunkai : 'Think, you will figure it out yourselve'.
I have only heared the use of the term kaisai no genri from books from Seikichi Toguchi's books. But the principles to unlock the applications from kata are described in it. I was told them in the same manner, only one opponent, the direction used in the kata is not the direction used in the application perse. The technique can be adjusted to make it work (using it eg higher or lower, depending on the attack of the adversary). The kata gives an idea of the mechanic of the technique. The application depends on multiple factors.
As for hidden techniques in Goju kata. There are a lot and have mostly to do with what supporting hand is doing (like stopping hiki-te at stomach level etc...)

Sepai kata is very interesting as a study. You can compare to the shito ryu version and then have a loock at the different goju sects. You will find a lot of interpretations all with more or less the same application idea. Like in the end you can put a wrist lock inside out and takedown on one arm, or outside in an elbow lock and takedown or locking both arms and takedown.

I think applications were givven as an example but students were encouraged to search for mutiple answers.

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#376170 - 01/12/08 01:40 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Unless I am misunderstanding what has been posted, I believe work to find specific "original" bunkai is misguided. Even if this "original" bunkai is found whether it is striking only or not will be unuseable by the one who discovers it. This is mainly because karate is a personal study and everyone's bunkai will be slightly different. Sakugawa's fighting techniques are different from Matsumora's whose are different from Kyan's, etc. Now, another question is who's bunkai is original?

I do however, believe that there are specific fighting principles found within the kata. This is what the techniques in the kata are passing on. These are not hidden, but in plain sight and are actually very practical and common sense. Striking is Batman and grappling is Robin. Trouble strikes and Batman is called. If batman gets into trouble Robin comes in to help. However, ultimately, Batman gets back into the game and saves the day. This is all done with both open and closed hand strikes, "traditional" blocks used in a non "traditional" way, knee strikes, elbow strikes, throws, sweeps, joint locks, kicks, misc. leg techs, etc.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#376171 - 01/12/08 03:39 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well said Medulanet, that's what I was getting at, but couldn't find the words I suppose.

Jude: Again, the thing about "certain things were only passed on to certain people"...that's too vague for me to make any sense of, so i'm not sure how to respond.

You're talking about ura-waza I think...but guess what, plenty of people understand ura-waza, whether they claim an original bunkai or not. Some people are shown principles by their teacher, presumably at least some figure it out through diligence.

Lots of people say they have secret proprietary techniques, at the end of the day they are usually doing the same stuff as everyone else.

Certainly any claim of an "original bunkai" would require some pretty definitive proof, as well as a definition of what actually constitutes an original bunkai.

CVV: yes I was under the impression that Toguchi coined the term, what I was getting at is that it seems like these rules are pretty universal in terms of kata application, whether they are named "kaisai no genri" or not, would you agree?

What I was trying to get across is that generally I think those ideas are more important to understanding kata bunkai than simple parroting and regurgitation of a set of techniques, and thus why the idea of an 'original bunkai' is perhaps a little pointless.

I think this applies whether we are talking about striking applications and/or grappling applications.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/12/08 03:48 PM)

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#376172 - 01/12/08 05:08 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I do however, believe that there are specific fighting principles found within the kata.




Yeah. Two man drills formulated from someones fighting techniques were turned in to kata.

Ok. perhaps the fighting principles can be seen but why is it stated the techniques were hidden in some kata?

Or I seem to be slowly getting the impression the more time spent on kata/ fighting study the clearer it gets.

Or did certain fighters realy hide their techniques in kata ?

Either way its not such a big deal. It was only a guess/ impression and doesnt stop me/ change anything I am studying.

What ifs is always going to come about from study.

Jude

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#376173 - 01/12/08 06:30 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Jude, I think its a matter of techniques being hidden in plain sight. If I teach you that an outside middle block is applied in a specific and ineffective way for fighting however, it have given you the proper technique execution then it is up to me to decide when and where, if ever, I instruct you on its more effective fighting applications. I have hidden the fighting application to this technique in plain sight. You have all of the tools, however, you don't yet have all of the knowledge. Its just like what happened to Motobu. Kosaku Matsumora taught him a few kata, but not their fighting application. He had all of the tools, but not the knowledge of application to make it work. However, when Motobu spied Matsumora's secret training he was able to observe his fighting application. Once he saw this he was able to apply the fighting application for real in street fights in the red light districts of okinawa and against a professinoal boxer. Had he never witness the true fighting applications I wonder if he would have developed the fighting skill he had using karate.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#376174 - 01/13/08 07:23 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: medulanet]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
My experience in kata analysis is somewhat the same as medulanet explains.
Takeshi Uchiage said to me that all goju kata have one secret technique. Upon a discussion regarding secret techniques on this forum a few years back I asked him why.
He explained that it was a tradition from the past, originating from China, that some techniques would not be shown in the kata or shown differently in the kata than in the actual application. This was to prevent technique thieves to steal the techniques. So he still maintains this tradition and teaches the secret techniques only from time to time. But we have an 'open' society nowadays and secret tends not to be that 'secret' anymore.
But some of the older masters were very secrative about application and even about kata in public display. To my mind comes Shinpo Matayoshi who would almost never perform a kata on tape or in public as it was thaught in his dojo.
We are shown application but we are also encouraged to look for answers oureselves. This study makes karate so intersting to me. The kata as Miyagi left them differ in time/person so thus also in application. It's all 'original'. And if you can apply them with effect in jyu kumite, it's even better than 'original'.
I think that training should encourage to search for answers by givving already what you know. But this info comes gradually as the student progresses and even then it's upon the teacher to give away or not.
You can not teach iri-kumi (inside fighting) when the student is afraid to enter inside (irimi). Most of the applications in goju-ryu kata lie in that close-distance (and from what I have seen from other styles it's the same thing).

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