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#376145 - 01/08/08 07:04 AM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Meh, just more to snicker at immaturely!

But yeah, good job.




Ahem! So back to the topic. Says Jude appreciating the humour and putting keyboard type digging implement to one side.



Where were we? Ah yeah the theory that karate is meant to be known foremost for striking. Perhaps stated because some of the quickly applied grappling applications that the fore runners of certain fighting arts put in to certain kata might not have been correctly worked out by certain people.

And reading an article that was posted on the use of Japanese influenced karate kata. interesting.



Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/08/08 07:39 AM)

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#376146 - 01/08/08 04:08 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Meh, just more to snicker at immaturely!

But yeah, good job.




Ahem! So back to the topic. Says Jude appreciating the humour and putting keyboard type digging implement to one side.



Where were we? Ah yeah the theory that karate is meant to be known foremost for striking. Perhaps stated because some of the quickly applied grappling applications that the fore runners of certain fighting arts put in to certain kata might not have been correctly worked out by certain people.

And reading an article that was posted on the use of Japanese influenced karate kata. interesting.



Jude




Ok lets lay it out, do you actually think Karate is not a discipline oriented towards percussive impact...in other words do you think the grappling actually plays as big a role as the striking?

This is the idea I have an issue with, such an art has no strategic backbone to prop itself up, it's trying to be all things to all people.

I don't think it's due to lack of understanding about the grappling bits in kata, I've met senior Karateka that can analyze, explain, and use Karate grappling apps from kata down to their finest nuance, still I don't think any of them would deny that Karate is a discipline oriented towards percussive impact.

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#376147 - 01/08/08 06:58 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Most so called street fighters seem to be strike orientated, then I would agree striking must be trained to a fairly high level but that doesnt mean to say the rest of the stuff in trad karate(although specialist users might have to be sought to train throws etc) and ground fighting shouldnt be emphasised as intensely


Above was my input near the start of the thread.

If you perhaps first read the input on the thread ?. You havent read the input?

Unusual !!.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/08/08 07:07 PM)

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#376148 - 01/08/08 08:27 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Jude didnt realy engage brain and notice fileboys thought pattern.

Those seemed like your own thoughts fileboy.

Ok. So if striking is meant to be trained to a high level then why not train the other elements to the same level as well?

Jude

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#376149 - 01/08/08 08:54 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Most so called street fighters seem to be strike orientated, then I would agree striking must be trained to a fairly high level but that doesnt mean to say the rest of the stuff in trad karate(although specialist users might have to be sought to train throws etc) and ground fighting shouldnt be emphasised as intensely




The reason they shouldn't be emphasized as intensely is because Karate groundfighting is certainly bound to be less pervasive and encompassing than something like Jujitsu where the practitioners actually excel at it.

I learned most of my basic throws from my first Goju teacher, however had he placed equal emphasis on these as on other things he would have had to leave out the things that are fundamental to Karate, groundfighting is certainly not fundamental to karate. Some knowledge of clinching, throwing, what have you I suppose is. The bottom line is unless you keep everything in context of what the framework of Karate is, then what you have is a jumbled mess.

In short, if your game plan is "I will be excellent at everything" you really need to go train the different arts that can do that for you, and I assume that we all have limited time, and want to make the best use of it.

Karate is not as detailed grappling wise as dedicated grappling arts.



Here ya go: http://www.westseattlekarate.com/flowchart.shtml

A pretty standard representation of Goju Karate (if you disagree with it please explain), why would you spend equal time training something that makes up a smaller percentage of your style? I realize it's a simplification, but at some point you have to prioritize what it is you actually excel at, and what you simply need to be functional at.

As far as not reading your previous post, evidentally we've both been guilty of that, so how about we just move forward from here?

So again, if you want equal or better emphasis on grappling (using the term generically) why on earth wouldn't you go train an art that specializes in it?

Re: Street fighters and their preferences: can we keep the conversation to what Karate is or is not?

Sorry but all the theoreticals people bring up in conversations like this about "t3h str33t" are secondary to the point, we are having a conversation about the makeup of the martial art known as Karate, not asking what an RBSD system should contain.

I know it's tempting to throw all the "but it has to work for self defense" arguments out there, but those arguments I think really do confuse what the issues are here.

Here's Marc MacYoung on the subject of SD vs Martial Arts:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html#maritalarts


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/08/08 09:01 PM)

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#376150 - 01/08/08 10:22 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
It is important to understand that grappling in karate is about position more than anything else. The training in grappling is supplementary like lifting weights, running, or body conditioning. If I told you that weight lifting was a part of classical karate training, would you say that I was trying to be a bodybuilder? No. Its like any other exercise to develop fighting skill. Just like Nagamine commented about Kyan's father teaching him "karate wrestling" or Okinawan youth practicing tegumi. You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you can fight. But it is also good to learn how to grapple as well. Just because I run to get into shape does not mean I am training to run a marathon. I'm simply training to be able to fight. In addition, I don't believe anyone here stated that karate was a grapple first and strike second art so I am not sure where this idea is coming from.
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#376151 - 01/08/08 10:28 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Jude mentioned he thought it was reasonable to train grappling and striking "equally" I realize that maybe at this point we're arguing semantics, but that's what I was addressing.

Other than that I agree with everything you said, well put.

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#376152 - 01/09/08 12:12 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Here ya go: http://www.westseattlekarate.com/flowchart.shtml

A pretty standard representation of Goju Karate (if you disagree with it please explain), why would you spend equal time training something that makes up a smaller percentage of your style?




I presume by 70% hands that will include
Forearms
Elbows
Etc ?

While I can see the point there are one or two things I would like to add.
(Keep attacker off balance.
5 % on throws)
From amongst other things that I am seeing in kata study is a use of the
Shoulder
foot sweeps
kicks
strikes
The use of the conditioned body and the dropping of the body weight for a standing armbar/ joint break

All which would also off the balance the opponent and might lead to a throw.

So I think the percentage of time spent on throwing will be higher
Strike (s) / arm bar or joint break/. throw / strike on the ground.

I still think everything needs to be trained at the same level.

The part about street fights. That might cause some discomfort to some but if karate was created to fight with then where would that have taken place? I think I have read of ports being particuler bad at one time on Okinawa.
Or was it Japan?

I dont particulery want street fights myself but it is a real world out there. It seems street fights is a different study? But if that isnt the topic then ok.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/09/08 12:19 PM)

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#376153 - 01/09/08 06:44 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I dont particulery want street fights myself but it is a real world out there. It seems street fights is a different study? But if that isnt the topic then ok.

Jude




Yeah, of course it's a different study, studying a TMA is not being a fighter, it is in part training some fighting techniques, but the two are not the same thing...that's why bringing this stuff up in this context is a red herring imo.

Just read the article I posted about the difference between Martial arts, self-defense, and fighting, I pretty much agree with everything MacYoung has to say on the subject.

Anyway, far as training karate grappling equally, out of curiosity, does your Goju teacher emphasize them equally?

I know in my training it is there but it is put in perspective to the greater whole, as part of an overall model, not something you do "alongside", simply a part of the overall strategy.

far as the charts go, I did not create them, but I think they are meant as a general guideline, you are way overthinking them. Of course all that other stuff is there, it fits into the general categories listed.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (01/09/08 06:46 PM)

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#376154 - 01/09/08 06:49 PM Re: Striking Only? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Guys,

Striking or not? It all depends on the style we are talking about. For example, kyukyoshin is predominently striking while jujutsu is predominently grappling (joint locks, throws,etc). The goju I do leans more toward striking ,but also has alot of throws and jointlocks/breaks, etc.. Withing those styles it depends on the schools that teach the style.

So...you are both right.
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