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#375085 - 12/22/07 11:00 PM CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study.
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Maybe mind exercises have some benefit? Like the ability to control one's inner-organs through the use of a relaxed and controlled focus. I have also heard of monks being able to massage and manipulate their organs like you can with your biceps, and why not the heart is nothing more than a muscle that can be controlled. I think these monks clearly prove that by lowering their heart rate and at the same time raising their body temperature.

IMO one of the main goal's of meditation is to help the body stay healthy and live long. I think that has a lot more benefit in life than the ability to kick butt.

Can anybody here achieve this?

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#375086 - 12/25/07 01:02 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3ScfZy944


Here's some video footage of on this experiment.

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#375087 - 12/25/07 06:27 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Research proceeded slowly and intermittently until February 2001, when Benson's team received a $1.25 million grant from Loel Guinness, via the beer magnate's Kalpa Foundation, established to study extraordinary human capacities.







Nice grant they got and for that amount who knows what
findings will appear. Makes a good story that amount of money. Could have been better spent somewhere else on some other kind of research. It rings of B/S.
I am sceptical about a lot of claims made by people. I suppose the heart rate can be controlled by
the person as opposed to natural control through the brain by breathing. But I cant see the point or I doubt if it is indeed possable to directly control the other organs.

To me a clear mind is one that can concentrate on a given task. One that can be controlled to not allow worry or fear or any negative thoughts to get in the way of a specific goal. To block out un-needed distractions.



Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/25/07 06:35 PM)

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#375088 - 12/26/07 07:32 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
http://www.mbmi.org/benson/default.asp

Dr. Herbert Benson's credibility is impeccable when it comes to this kind of research. He Graduated from Harvard. Was a associate professor there for over 30 years, and has been a pioneer in this field for over twenty five years. You don't get to use Harvard's money, equipment, personal, and their good name to do some bs experiments.

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/4/513

Here is a link to a vast amount of research on Chi and meditation from institutions like Princeton, Oxford, Cambridge, and Harvard. These studies were done by Neuroscientists, Biochemists, Psychiatrists, and Molecular scientists. All leading scientists in their given fields.

Whenever a "chi" or "meditation" topic comes up the chi skeptics ask for "scientific data" well here it is. But it seems the people who usually mock this on here and ask for "evidence" are quietly not joining this topic. So really they never wanted to see the research, but just mock people instead. These studies are not from some group like "Buddhist on cloud nine" or "Taoist in the void" but rather from the most respected Universities in the world.

Just because a study takes a long time does not make the results any-less genuine. The Tibetan Monks sitting in freezing temperatures all night long on a mountain top, with nothing but a loin cloth on, with no signs of shivering are showing a great ability at ("a clear mind is one that can concentrate on a given task. One that can be controlled to not allow worry or fear or any negative thoughts to get in the way of a specific goal. To block out unneeded distractions. ")achieving these tasks.

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#375089 - 12/26/07 11:01 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Good stuff...

I simply have a problem with the fact that the "disbelievers" cannot recognize the connection between the meditative control of the autonomic nervous system to control blood pressure, etc. and the martial application of chi to do exactly the same thing. If they were simply cognizent enough to recognize that some people have "cold hands" and others have "warm hands" they could understand the connection between "extending ki" and "drawing in ki".

When I started martial arts, we spent endless hours doing breathing exercises, timing "ibuki" breath with punches, and "nogare" breath with blocks and parries. The "hard breath" and "soft breath" have purpose in martial application, as does meditation... wonder why they can't put the pieces together and understand that?

Like the "doubting Thomas" of the Bible, they have to put their fingers into the holes of the nails before they will believe anything... (sorry, best analogy I could think of)...

"Scientific" proof seems to have lots of different dimensions...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#375090 - 12/27/07 07:09 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Pathfinder -

While the results are interesting, none of this is really martial application. I do not contest the fact that people can control their breathing, heart rate, etc. Magicians are known for doing the same thing, without any knowledge of chi/ki.

And the "chi disbelief" that *I* have is in reference to other, still unproven claims such as NTKO and the lot.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#375091 - 12/27/07 07:16 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: wristtwister]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
If I've learned anything by being on public Forums is that there are basically two groups of people. One group wants or demand to see the completed picture of a jig-saw puzzle first before willing to start on putting it together; the other, whether due to innocent blind faith or lacking in inborne intelligence or sometimes both, are willing, at the risk of coming up with nothing, to put in the time and effort to put the pieces together to see if any picture emerges.

And spouting knee-jerk "BS" comments (to put it politely) on any and everything which one has no knowledge or experience of or simply because that is the easiest way out and giving it the flimsiest of authority by saying "IMHO" is no way to learn anything or getting anyone to teach you anything.

As for what the monks did to raise their body temperatures, it is actually not something all that fantastic (perhaps it is to non-chi practitioners) It's a matter of degree of control over the speed one can circulate one's chi. As chi is consciously circulated at high speeds, the body temperature rises, much like a metallic wire heating up. My own training can do this, though to reach the level of the monks, I've to put in much more training. When I was a student in London years ago, and coming from a tropical country, I did it to a much smaller degree to keep warm in winter. At my level, it was quite mentally exhausting to keep circulating the chi at high speeds while listening to boring lectures.

As I've said a long time ago on another thread, Chi is a basic ingredient like flour, which can be turned into bread, noodles or cakes, depending on who is using it and for what purpose.

The question is HOW do you start to acquire contact with and manipulative control over the chi. I've already given the answer elswhere.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#375092 - 12/27/07 06:45 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

If I've learned anything by being on public Forums is that there are basically two groups of people. One group wants or demand to see the completed picture of a jig-saw puzzle first before willing to start on putting it together; the other, whether due to innocent blind faith or lacking in inborne intelligence or sometimes both, are willing, at the risk of coming up with nothing, to put in the time and effort to put the pieces together to see if any picture emerges.






Hi

I have attempted and still am attempting to piece together
the stuff I read about. Some of it I agree with. Some I dont. So perhaps I could ask some questions

Why would a person want to control the organs ?
What use would be the findings of the experiment?
From my studies I can take it for granted that there is a connection between the thought (conscious and subconscious) process and the endocrine system would you perhaps care to explain it?



Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/27/07 06:48 PM)

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#375093 - 12/29/07 02:30 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
The Lower Dan Tian is regarded today as th second brain, your body's "battery" which can store a bioelectric charge. Qi is the energy or lifeforce within every cell of our body. It cannot yet be clearly defined, but it consists largely of the bioelectricity produced by the body's metabolism. When the bioelectricity storage has reached a high level, the vital energy manifested by the physical body will be strong. Naturally, you will be healthy and have a long life.

Just a small point. I got to roughtly the same conclusion with my findings if you read my input on this thread. If you care to look at where I was typing about the ionization of the sodium atom. I cant see how it is stored though?

Interesting that I looked at the realistic interpretation based on my limited knowledge of biology/science not just quoting other peoples works or stating he is an eminent proffesor there fore it must be good. Anybody care to break down exactly what he is doing in a realistic science way?
Could we look at the reality of a monk sitting out in the cold and biologicaly why he doesnt get hyperthermia?

Have any of you had hyperthermia?


Thought not. It would seem it is on the lines of just quote the quoted.


The questions are there if you care to answer them.

Why has it gone silent again when people dispute things?
Why are the arguments never based on biology or science from some people on this thread?

Jude

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#375094 - 12/29/07 11:11 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Matt,

These studies have unlimited possibilities for MA. The capabilities of the monks to control their internal organs in extreme conditions is fascinating. What got me into this research from a MA perspective is the ability to control the "fight or flight mechanism".

To have the ability to call upon that adrenaline when needed would be a major benefit in a SD situation. When most people step into a MA school for the first time people are getting screamed at, people are getting punched and kicked, the heart starts pumping and you just hope to make it through class. After going there for some time you get used to all that and become part of the group. Doing SD in a MA school is one thing but to use it to defend yourself is really quite different. In a SD situation the mind sees a threat and the body reacts sending the internal organs into a frenzy but with no control over them. When the "fight or flight mechanism" kicks in and you are unable to control it, the mind no longer thinks rational and that is when bad things can happen.

I've seen many fighters before a ring fight with great stamina tire out rather quickly because they were unable to control their pre-fight jitters and they tired themselves out from the stress of the situation before they even stepped into the ring. To have control over these types of situations is crucial for a MA but seems to be neglected.

http://www.thebodysoulconnection.com/EducationCenter/fight.html

http://www.thebodysoulconnection.com/more.html

Here's another good study
http://reylab.bidmc.harvard.edu/pubs/1999/ijc-1999-70-101.pdf

Jude,

The reason I use all these quotes is because I am not a scientist and have no research conducted in this area so finding the best available scientific studies is crucial. I could type endless pages of what "I" think but who cares if I can't back it up with any studies.

I can't explain what the monks did scientifically that is why I use Dr. Benson's research. If his research is not science to you then I don't no what else to tell you. So if he can't explain it good enough to you how can I? You criticize people for not bringing in the science but I have yet to see you offer any science on this subject only your opinions. If you have good science please put up a link.

A bad research paper is just what you think, a good research paper is what you believe backed up by the best research possible. The study I posted you called "bs". By doing that you did not "dispute things" like you may think. Like you have been saying where is the "science".

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