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#375085 - 12/22/07 11:00 PM CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study.
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Maybe mind exercises have some benefit? Like the ability to control one's inner-organs through the use of a relaxed and controlled focus. I have also heard of monks being able to massage and manipulate their organs like you can with your biceps, and why not the heart is nothing more than a muscle that can be controlled. I think these monks clearly prove that by lowering their heart rate and at the same time raising their body temperature.

IMO one of the main goal's of meditation is to help the body stay healthy and live long. I think that has a lot more benefit in life than the ability to kick butt.

Can anybody here achieve this?

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#375086 - 12/25/07 01:02 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3ScfZy944


Here's some video footage of on this experiment.

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#375087 - 12/25/07 06:27 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Research proceeded slowly and intermittently until February 2001, when Benson's team received a $1.25 million grant from Loel Guinness, via the beer magnate's Kalpa Foundation, established to study extraordinary human capacities.







Nice grant they got and for that amount who knows what
findings will appear. Makes a good story that amount of money. Could have been better spent somewhere else on some other kind of research. It rings of B/S.
I am sceptical about a lot of claims made by people. I suppose the heart rate can be controlled by
the person as opposed to natural control through the brain by breathing. But I cant see the point or I doubt if it is indeed possable to directly control the other organs.

To me a clear mind is one that can concentrate on a given task. One that can be controlled to not allow worry or fear or any negative thoughts to get in the way of a specific goal. To block out un-needed distractions.



Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/25/07 06:35 PM)

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#375088 - 12/26/07 07:32 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
http://www.mbmi.org/benson/default.asp

Dr. Herbert Benson's credibility is impeccable when it comes to this kind of research. He Graduated from Harvard. Was a associate professor there for over 30 years, and has been a pioneer in this field for over twenty five years. You don't get to use Harvard's money, equipment, personal, and their good name to do some bs experiments.

http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/3/4/513

Here is a link to a vast amount of research on Chi and meditation from institutions like Princeton, Oxford, Cambridge, and Harvard. These studies were done by Neuroscientists, Biochemists, Psychiatrists, and Molecular scientists. All leading scientists in their given fields.

Whenever a "chi" or "meditation" topic comes up the chi skeptics ask for "scientific data" well here it is. But it seems the people who usually mock this on here and ask for "evidence" are quietly not joining this topic. So really they never wanted to see the research, but just mock people instead. These studies are not from some group like "Buddhist on cloud nine" or "Taoist in the void" but rather from the most respected Universities in the world.

Just because a study takes a long time does not make the results any-less genuine. The Tibetan Monks sitting in freezing temperatures all night long on a mountain top, with nothing but a loin cloth on, with no signs of shivering are showing a great ability at ("a clear mind is one that can concentrate on a given task. One that can be controlled to not allow worry or fear or any negative thoughts to get in the way of a specific goal. To block out unneeded distractions. ")achieving these tasks.

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#375089 - 12/26/07 11:01 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Good stuff...

I simply have a problem with the fact that the "disbelievers" cannot recognize the connection between the meditative control of the autonomic nervous system to control blood pressure, etc. and the martial application of chi to do exactly the same thing. If they were simply cognizent enough to recognize that some people have "cold hands" and others have "warm hands" they could understand the connection between "extending ki" and "drawing in ki".

When I started martial arts, we spent endless hours doing breathing exercises, timing "ibuki" breath with punches, and "nogare" breath with blocks and parries. The "hard breath" and "soft breath" have purpose in martial application, as does meditation... wonder why they can't put the pieces together and understand that?

Like the "doubting Thomas" of the Bible, they have to put their fingers into the holes of the nails before they will believe anything... (sorry, best analogy I could think of)...

"Scientific" proof seems to have lots of different dimensions...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#375090 - 12/27/07 07:09 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Pathfinder -

While the results are interesting, none of this is really martial application. I do not contest the fact that people can control their breathing, heart rate, etc. Magicians are known for doing the same thing, without any knowledge of chi/ki.

And the "chi disbelief" that *I* have is in reference to other, still unproven claims such as NTKO and the lot.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#375091 - 12/27/07 07:16 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: wristtwister]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
If I've learned anything by being on public Forums is that there are basically two groups of people. One group wants or demand to see the completed picture of a jig-saw puzzle first before willing to start on putting it together; the other, whether due to innocent blind faith or lacking in inborne intelligence or sometimes both, are willing, at the risk of coming up with nothing, to put in the time and effort to put the pieces together to see if any picture emerges.

And spouting knee-jerk "BS" comments (to put it politely) on any and everything which one has no knowledge or experience of or simply because that is the easiest way out and giving it the flimsiest of authority by saying "IMHO" is no way to learn anything or getting anyone to teach you anything.

As for what the monks did to raise their body temperatures, it is actually not something all that fantastic (perhaps it is to non-chi practitioners) It's a matter of degree of control over the speed one can circulate one's chi. As chi is consciously circulated at high speeds, the body temperature rises, much like a metallic wire heating up. My own training can do this, though to reach the level of the monks, I've to put in much more training. When I was a student in London years ago, and coming from a tropical country, I did it to a much smaller degree to keep warm in winter. At my level, it was quite mentally exhausting to keep circulating the chi at high speeds while listening to boring lectures.

As I've said a long time ago on another thread, Chi is a basic ingredient like flour, which can be turned into bread, noodles or cakes, depending on who is using it and for what purpose.

The question is HOW do you start to acquire contact with and manipulative control over the chi. I've already given the answer elswhere.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#375092 - 12/27/07 06:45 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

If I've learned anything by being on public Forums is that there are basically two groups of people. One group wants or demand to see the completed picture of a jig-saw puzzle first before willing to start on putting it together; the other, whether due to innocent blind faith or lacking in inborne intelligence or sometimes both, are willing, at the risk of coming up with nothing, to put in the time and effort to put the pieces together to see if any picture emerges.






Hi

I have attempted and still am attempting to piece together
the stuff I read about. Some of it I agree with. Some I dont. So perhaps I could ask some questions

Why would a person want to control the organs ?
What use would be the findings of the experiment?
From my studies I can take it for granted that there is a connection between the thought (conscious and subconscious) process and the endocrine system would you perhaps care to explain it?



Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/27/07 06:48 PM)

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#375093 - 12/29/07 02:30 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
The Lower Dan Tian is regarded today as th second brain, your body's "battery" which can store a bioelectric charge. Qi is the energy or lifeforce within every cell of our body. It cannot yet be clearly defined, but it consists largely of the bioelectricity produced by the body's metabolism. When the bioelectricity storage has reached a high level, the vital energy manifested by the physical body will be strong. Naturally, you will be healthy and have a long life.

Just a small point. I got to roughtly the same conclusion with my findings if you read my input on this thread. If you care to look at where I was typing about the ionization of the sodium atom. I cant see how it is stored though?

Interesting that I looked at the realistic interpretation based on my limited knowledge of biology/science not just quoting other peoples works or stating he is an eminent proffesor there fore it must be good. Anybody care to break down exactly what he is doing in a realistic science way?
Could we look at the reality of a monk sitting out in the cold and biologicaly why he doesnt get hyperthermia?

Have any of you had hyperthermia?


Thought not. It would seem it is on the lines of just quote the quoted.


The questions are there if you care to answer them.

Why has it gone silent again when people dispute things?
Why are the arguments never based on biology or science from some people on this thread?

Jude

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#375094 - 12/29/07 11:11 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Matt,

These studies have unlimited possibilities for MA. The capabilities of the monks to control their internal organs in extreme conditions is fascinating. What got me into this research from a MA perspective is the ability to control the "fight or flight mechanism".

To have the ability to call upon that adrenaline when needed would be a major benefit in a SD situation. When most people step into a MA school for the first time people are getting screamed at, people are getting punched and kicked, the heart starts pumping and you just hope to make it through class. After going there for some time you get used to all that and become part of the group. Doing SD in a MA school is one thing but to use it to defend yourself is really quite different. In a SD situation the mind sees a threat and the body reacts sending the internal organs into a frenzy but with no control over them. When the "fight or flight mechanism" kicks in and you are unable to control it, the mind no longer thinks rational and that is when bad things can happen.

I've seen many fighters before a ring fight with great stamina tire out rather quickly because they were unable to control their pre-fight jitters and they tired themselves out from the stress of the situation before they even stepped into the ring. To have control over these types of situations is crucial for a MA but seems to be neglected.

http://www.thebodysoulconnection.com/EducationCenter/fight.html

http://www.thebodysoulconnection.com/more.html

Here's another good study
http://reylab.bidmc.harvard.edu/pubs/1999/ijc-1999-70-101.pdf

Jude,

The reason I use all these quotes is because I am not a scientist and have no research conducted in this area so finding the best available scientific studies is crucial. I could type endless pages of what "I" think but who cares if I can't back it up with any studies.

I can't explain what the monks did scientifically that is why I use Dr. Benson's research. If his research is not science to you then I don't no what else to tell you. So if he can't explain it good enough to you how can I? You criticize people for not bringing in the science but I have yet to see you offer any science on this subject only your opinions. If you have good science please put up a link.

A bad research paper is just what you think, a good research paper is what you believe backed up by the best research possible. The study I posted you called "bs". By doing that you did not "dispute things" like you may think. Like you have been saying where is the "science".

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#375095 - 12/30/07 11:03 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Pathfinder,
Chi is the most volatile issue on the boards... the two camps, those that believe it exists and those that don't are polarized worse than the positive and negative of magnetism.

For some people, they have to be able to explain everything in exact detail and know why. They cannot simply accept the facts as they are, and must have a scientific explanation of everything in the finite world. To them, I'm still waiting on the "scientific proof" of how the universe was created... there are lots of "scientific theories", but nothing that shows positive scientific proof of anything... it's ALL theory. Others simply believe whatever their religion taught them about the creation of the universe, and go on with their daily lives. To them, it isn't necessary to prove how every molecule of the world happened, or how it continues to exist, they simply accept the fact that it does, and go on with life.

Clearly, the Tibetan Monks have something with their body control that is "out of the ordinary". They call it CHI. I don't lose a moment's sleep over whether or not it's "real" or not, I simply admire their ability to do what they do. Clearly, they have the ability...(proved scientifically, but of course only if you accept the research) to do these extrordinary things. Duplicating that in martial applications somehow has a total disconnect for the "disbelievers", and they have to completely recycle the argument every single time it comes up.

Quote:

The reason I use all these quotes is because I am not a scientist and have no research conducted in this area so finding the best available scientific studies is crucial.




My question is "why?". Clearly, you won't change the mind of those that "looked inside their radios and didn't see any radio waves, so they don't exist"... even though they can see the results and develop the information they have received from the broadcast.

Years ago, I went to a seminar that one of the Judo masters from the Kodokan was making, and he had with him a Zen master from one of his local temples. After the Judo class, the Zen teacher gave a lecture that was translated by one of the entourage, and as he delivered the lecture, stood with his hand in a pot of boiling water. When he finished, he withdrew his hand, dried it off, and it was not even red from the heat of the water. "This is the power of the mind" was his "closing statement".

That might not be "scientific proof" but it sure as hell got my attention, and was a very dynamic demonstration of what he could do. I wouldn't attempt to scientifically describe what happened, but (again) it really got my attention and was done as part of the "mental training" aspect of the Judo clinic.

There are lots of film available of the "fire walkers" in Japan, who display their skills at festivals, but the "scientific community" always dismiss it as a "trick" rather than a demonstration... so how you craft the language of the argument has a lot to do with whether something is "real" or not. The whole "global warming" scam is a "scientific consensus" of people who needed a new avenue to scam money from the governments, so they concocted this "chicken little" story about climate change to give them a vehicle for it. They have no concept of scale, actual meteorological experience, or climate data to back up their "theory" and governments are "falling in line" simply from being scared by the nay-sayers or lining up at the feed trough for "grants" to do "research". It's the biggest boondoggle of all time.

As for "scientific proof", it depends on whether or not you choose to believe it... not the actual facts involved. Just like global warming, chi "vendors" and disbelievers have their beliefs and will ridicule anyone who offers "scientific" analysis. It's how science is refuted.
"My science is better than your science"... like children in a schoolyard.

I wouldn't get too upset about it... just keep training. If you believe that chi works, use it... if not, do what you're taught and work with that.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#375096 - 12/30/07 11:59 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

A bad research paper is just what you think, a good research paper is what you believe backed up by the best research possible. The study I posted you called "bs". By doing that you did not "dispute things" like you may think. Like you have been saying where is the "science".




The B/S remark was aimed at the fact that so much money is being allocated to that research when there are better uses in the medical world for that kind of money.

Either way have a good New Year.

Jude

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#375097 - 12/30/07 12:08 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: wristtwister]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

I am skeptical. I have in the past had the onset of Hyperthermia. There were two of us. The other guy had to go to hospital.
So to tell me that people can live out in the cold takes some believing.


But there is a lot in what you say.
Positive thoughts of chi moving about the body would have an effect on the endocrine stystem in a plus way.
I have seen the results of hypnosis from a friend who wouldnt tell lies. He looked as though he has been in a deep sleep. His mind was so clear. If this could be achieved by a person doing it them selves then I am all for it.

Jude

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#375098 - 12/30/07 06:14 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Pathfinder:

Lower the heart rate sure, lower my resperation rate easily, raise my temprature, a little. The way, manner, technique which they use, not even close (yet). More experience please...

Jeff

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#375099 - 01/01/08 04:26 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I mentally massage my buttocks once a day to keep them firm and supple.

Just kidding.

Actually, the idea that mental training can enhance physical performance is neither new nor controversial. Everyone from gymnasts to goldfers to football players use visualization, relaxation, and other techniques to help their performance and/or recovery.

What we need to be leery of are claims that run contrary to established scientific knwoledge or plain old common sense. Unfortunately, martial arts are rife with this kind of goofiness.

Several years ago, Black Belt magazine ran an interview with a Chinese martial arts master who claimed that "in ancient times" people lived to be 100, 150, or even 200 years old, but no longer did because we had "lost the way." Even more jaw dropping the statement itself was the fact the BB interviewer let such blatent stupidity pass without comment!

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#375100 - 01/02/08 04:27 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: wristtwister]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
wristtwister,

The definition of the word "theory" in science differs from its definition when used in the vernacular. In popular usage, the word "theory" means little more than one's personal opinion; in science, a theory is a complex model of how some aspect of the universe works, which is supported by a large body of empirical observation and which has survived multiple attempts at falsification. This is a case of one word having two totally different meanings--like the "mouse" that eats cheese versus the device that glides atop your mousepad.

Clearly, you either honestly do not understand the difference or don't want to. Science is NOT a matter of what we choose to believe. Global warming is NOT a scam.

How can you not believe in something like global warming, for which a mountain of objective evidence exists, yet be impressed by a boiling water stunt that any semi-talented stage magician can duplicate?

I am genuinely floored by this!

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#375101 - 01/02/08 05:00 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA


Agreed, Fileboy. How people can ignore science that has been proven, over and over - even by our current administration - is beyond me. The overwhelming, world-wide consensus is that global warming is very much real.

But they're all wrong and Grady is right.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#375102 - 01/03/08 05:15 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



wristtwister,

This is a case of one word having two totally different meanings--like the "mouse" that eats cheese versus the device that glides atop your mousepad.






Hi

Fileboy with all due respect why didint you apply this to the different definition's of chi which I proved instead of constant useage of "chi doesnt exist"?.

Can I ask why all of a sudden now do you choose to use it?

Chi= the name given to the vapour rising from a corpse.
Chi= the name of energy.

Quote:



Clearly, you either honestly do not understand the difference or don't want to.




I got the same impression from what you were stating about chi.

Quote:


Science is NOT a matter of what we choose to believe. Global warming is NOT a scam.





Global warming might not be a scam but the amount of money spent by people doing the research might be considered a scam. Please note I said "amount"

Do you have any idea what the cost was?


And given the findings of Earths History hasnt the Earth gone through the same process of warming up and cooling down?

How did they prove/dissprove this?

What do you think is the name of the processes that is said to occur app so many thousands of years that might cause the Earth to heat up or cool down ?

Why is this?


I am a mere student but might I ask do you know why it is this time they are saying the Earth is said to be getting warmer? A simple sentence might be all that is required.


Quote:



How can you not believe in something like global warming, for which a mountain of objective evidence exists, yet be impressed by a boiling water stunt that any semi-talented stage magician can duplicate?






Would you care to explain how they duplicate this?

Would you care to explain fire walkers? How do they do it?


File boy with all due respect if a person is going to bring something down that someone states then to my mind please state why and not just use pure quotes from what everybody reads in the papers.

Is the Earth getting warmer because of the reason certain scientists are stating or is it because it has gone through this same proccess through its history according to certain strains of science?


I have asked number of questions. Students tend to do this.
If you do indeed teach please do me the honour of answering them.

The questions I have asked I have researched the answers.


Quote:


I mentally massage my buttocks once a day to keep them firm and supple.




From what I can gather that is the Internal method of doing it.

Might I suggest you try to say train back squats with a good weigth for reps you would have the benefits of both internal and external training.
Might end up with better gluteus , maximus , medius , minimus , piriformis sacrum coccyx

If that is your end goal then go for it.

Just kidding.



Jude.


Edited by jude33 (01/03/08 05:43 AM)

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#375103 - 01/03/08 06:38 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I am genuinely floored by this!




I might also feel the same way if you cant/dont decide to answer the questions or even get the incorrect answers and/or base everything on information given out by the media.

Jude

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#375104 - 01/03/08 08:00 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Matt, people's biggest problem is understanding the difference between when an individual has a 'theory' based on intuition that sounds agreeable to those with a vested interest in that view.

vs.

a Scientific Theory from a community of qualified in the feild, that is established over the test of time, challenged from every conceivable angle, and withstood the scrutany of sceptics.


see, everyone mistakes the word 'theory' to mean 'opinion', so people with non-qualified, adhoc or emotion-based opinions with agenda try to mis-use the word 'theory' to propetuate this confusion and demote what the real Theories had to go thru to become scientifically accepted Theories.


classic example was the politically and emotionally charged 'intelligent design' debate.

same thing with global warming. It cost money, lots of money for companies to change...especially utility and fuel companies. Spending a small fortune to prevent or at the least, cast doubt on the perceived need to change is very much worth it to them. It's much much harder and expensive to buy out a whole scientific community than it is to buy individual government officials with power.


The fact that the world is moving ahead and trying to do something, while the US is still keeping the issue up for debate and fuel/utility companies are reporting record profits, should tell us something as to how corrupt the US government has been progressively getting.


people who have republican loyalties based on whatever things they think their party represent, have falling for the scam hook-line and sinker.

"well, global warming is just a 'theory' anyhow."

yeah, ok, 'just' a theory...so lets keep burning more of the earth and putting it in the air and see what happens. Then, when the 'theory' becomes a naked eye observable fact, we can attribute it to something else....just like how people develop skill and LATER they attribute it to using 'Chi'.

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#375105 - 01/03/08 12:16 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

yeah, ok, 'just' a theory...so lets keep burning more of the earth and putting it in the air and see what happens. Then, when the 'theory' becomes a naked eye observable fact, we can attribute it to something else....just like how people develop skill and LATER they attribute it to using 'Chi'.



My thoughts.
Looks to me like there a lot of factors for global warming.
Reducing mans input might help but it seems they say the effects cant be reversed.
That I find hard to believe given the changes that the Earth is meant to have gone through because of natural occurences.
Maybe they mean short term.
It also seems as pointed out that because of the few's greed, mans input in certain countries isnt happening.
Or maybe they dont see it happening in their lifetime so it doesnt matter.
Good job people can be voted out unless they rig the postal votes as they are said to do in certain countries.

I love alleged corruption. Brings a new meaning to being mugged with a suitcase.

Jude

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#375106 - 01/03/08 03:13 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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jude33,

I addressed the ki-has-many-meanings arguement at some length. Perhaps you did not see it. Breifly, I said ki-believers only evoke this arguement when challenged by skeptics. When speaking amongst themselves, ki-believers use the word "ki" freely w/o ever specifying which definition they intend, yet somehow no confusion results. My suspicion: the so-called "silly New Age" definition of ki is THE definition of ki and the ki-has-many-meanings line is a just a smoke screen to throw off critics.

And I don't know how the trick with the boiling water was done. But I also don't know how world-famous stage magicians Penn & Teller perfrom a trick where they appear to shoot at each others heads and catch the incoming bullets in their teeth. What I do know--in both cases--is that it MUST be a trick, because such feats are not humanly possible.

If you want a short but thorough dissection of the global-warming-is-a-myth hoax, start here:

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/page.cfm?tagID=1011

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#375107 - 01/03/08 03:41 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

jude33,

I addressed the ki-has-many-meanings arguement at some length. Perhaps you did not see it. Breifly, I said ki-believers only evoke this arguement when challenged by skeptics. When speaking amongst themselves, ki-believers use the word "ki" freely w/o ever specifying which definition they intend, yet somehow no confusion results. My suspicion: the so-called "silly New Age" definition of ki is THE definition of ki and the ki-has-many-meanings line is a just a smoke screen to throw off critics.

And I don't know how the trick with the boiling water was done. But I also don't know how world-famous stage magicians Penn & Teller perfrom a trick where they appear to shoot at each others heads and catch the incoming bullets in their teeth. What I do know--in both cases--is that it MUST be a trick, because such feats are not humanly possible.

If you want a short but thorough dissection of the global-warming-is-a-myth hoax, start here:

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/page.cfm?tagID=1011




Hi

I dont think I need to read up again on global warming.
I would much rather see a persons opinion, with the "for" and "against" after they have reached a conclusion based on their own findings than be given something to read written by someone else.

I have enough answers to form my opinion on global warming. Here it is for what it is worth.

The very nature of what the Earth is makes for the greenhouse effect. Man adds to the effect with different emmisions from products and the manufacturing of products. If it is deemed what he does is making the planet warmer then, as is happening in certain countries, the correct steps are being taken. Apart from other countries that refuse to comply.


The Earth has gone and will indeed go through severe changes from natural events such as the difference in presumed orbit's around the Sun etc etc (according to some scientists).

Earth has had severe changes in the past (according to some scientists) with out mans input.

Certain politicians have a vested interest in not "considering" the future of the planet.

The boiling in water trick done by magicians?

If I stated that then I think I would be looking for a
method that they use otherwise I wouldnt negate some ones statement, but that is your choice.

It is easy to state off the cuff negative arguments but then they have little value unless they have a reason.

One thing I have learned about this forum is there are people who argue. From some of these arguments a lot can be learned. Negative off the cuff statements is anybody's choice. But without reason they lead no-where.
I might at one time have been guilty of the same thing. The difference is, I like to think that I learn.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/03/08 04:19 PM)

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#375108 - 01/03/08 05:26 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
pathfinder7195 Offline
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Maybe somebody should start a global warming thread. So this does not get hijacked. Thanks

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#375109 - 01/03/08 05:44 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Maybe somebody should start a global warming thread. So this does not get hijacked. Thanks




Well I suppose the topic drifted but
a monk sitting out in the cold and global warming do have something in common. If it gets to warm on the planet there wont be any need for study if some one is surviving sitting out in the cold. Because it wont be cold enough.


So back to the topic.
Basicaly mind control and the experiment.


Jude

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#375110 - 01/04/08 01:34 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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"If I stated that then I think I would be looking for a
method that they use otherwise I wouldnt negate some ones statement, but that is your choice."


So, jude33, following your logic, since I do not know how Penn and Teller do the bullets-in-the-teeth trick, I should just believe it is a miracle or something?

Sorry to be blunt, but I am just not that stupid.

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#375111 - 01/04/08 08:33 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

"If I stated that then I think I would be looking for a
method that they use otherwise I wouldnt negate some ones statement, but that is your choice."


So, jude33, following your logic, since I do not know how Penn and Teller do the bullets-in-the-teeth trick, I should just believe it is a miracle or something?

Sorry to be blunt, but I am just not that stupid.




Nope.

If you are following my logic then what I am aiming at is at least a person might consider doing some research as to how someone does something. Then it could be stated I dont believe it because [ put in the reason here ]

Nobody has said you are stupid and would you please lighten up. People can sometimes be wrong . Me included. I aint perfect. Some women might see me as being the opposite but
I presume that is normal when they want something. ( says Jude in a slightly dream state)

Anyhow I think the guy who started the thread has given a subtle hint about hijacking the thread so I think it is best we go back to the original topic.

Which I will do.

Need a bit of time first.

Jude

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#375112 - 01/04/08 10:38 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Maybe mind exercises have some benefit? Like the ability to control one's inner-organs through the use of a relaxed and controlled focus. I have also heard of monks being able to massage and manipulate their organs like you can with your biceps, and why not the heart is nothing more than a muscle that can be controlled. I think these monks clearly prove that by lowering their heart rate and at the same time raising their body temperature.

.






My limited findings and best basic guess.

Firstly this type of extreme meditation is said to be done after some form of psychological and physiological preparation.

I am guessing that part of the physiological preperation is the gradual build up of brown fat in the body.

How this is done not sure yet

Here are the guesses

It might be done by the gradual exposure to the differnent levels of cold.

Could be done with food of some form

Exercise increases the thermogenic effect of brown fat.

(Thermogenesis means the creation of heat)

The release of norepinephrine that is the hormone released under stress.

This hormone activates an enzyme that splits the brown fat cell causing heat.

The bodies use of the hormone norepinephrine can be brought about by the mind ?

The use of the brown fat for heat would be on top of the normal process of the bodies normal heat production.

I guess that if the process of gradualy conditioning the body to the cold is true then the use of the mind again would be important in tolerating the cold and conditions.
Maybe a form of self hypnosis?

All the processes are energy.

Splitting of molocules?

One definition of chi = energy

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/04/08 11:04 AM)

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#375113 - 01/05/08 03:53 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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I agree that doing research is a good idea. However, in the case of magic tricks, magicians are careful NOT to make information about how they do tricks available. It is a special case.

But please: do you doubt for a moment that the Penn & Teller trick I described is, in fact, a trick?

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#375114 - 01/05/08 05:31 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

I agree that doing research is a good idea. However, in the case of magic tricks, magicians are careful NOT to make information about how they do tricks available. It is a special case.

But please: do you doubt for a moment that the Penn & Teller trick I described is, in fact, a trick?




Hi file boy.

Would you care to comment about the topic on the thread?

Slight deviation from the given topic by Jude to keep fileboy happy.

You say magicians are careful not to make information available.

File boy can I make a suggestion? Would you like to attempt to do some research? You agree doing research is a good idea?

Can I ask do you mean other people doing research is a good idea or do you mean that "You" yourself doing research might be a good idea?.

If it is the last part then I agree. It would be a good idea if you did some research so do you "think" there is a substance that if added to boiling water brings down the temperature, but the liquid still boils? Is so what would you call the substance?

I think Harry Houdini did the same trick with the bullet.
Care to work out how he did it? This might give a person some research skills.

Back to the topic.

Judes students thoughts.

It seems humans have lived through extreme cold in the distant past.
So it might be humans still have the genetic programming (not sure if that is the correct term) to
adapt to extreme cold. Thus the brown fat cells and even perhaps a form of none activity. The yoga’s in India have made claims to this activity.

Do humans still have this and the monks have re-activated it? By what means?

Jude will attempt to work it out.






Edited by jude33 (01/05/08 06:00 PM)

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#375115 - 01/05/08 07:23 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Judes best guess.

It seems the human body does adapt to cold conditions given the right process. Once adapted, then, where as a person not adapted to the cold would normaly shiver the person who has adapted wouldnt.

Seems like the more brown cells the more heat is generated by the body when put in to a cold enviroment. There might be more to it than that.

In the experiment they say that the more than the usual amount of body heat generation is a by product of that form of meditation?
It would seem that extra body heat generation would happen anyway given the right conditions. How much heat generation is another question.

Jude .

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#375116 - 01/05/08 09:40 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Fileboy.

I have decided that from now on I am willing to discuss the topic.
I am unwilling to discuss anything else that you dont believe unless it relates to the topic.
Magicians, chi, fireballs other things, none native English speakers, what is added to boiling water or anything else you doubt unless it is connected to the topic then please discuss them with some one else who might lend a listening ear.

Jude.

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#375117 - 01/07/08 06:19 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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I never got off topic. Everything I mentioned was either directly related to the topic or grew out of discussion of the topic.

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#375118 - 01/07/08 06:29 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Here is something directed related to the topic for you:

http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html

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#375119 - 01/07/08 10:03 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

I never got off topic. Everything I mentioned was either directly related to the topic or grew out of discussion of the topic.




I think you might have drifted somewhat from the topic.
Then it seems you decided not to answer any of the questions.
I suppose they require some "thought" .

Quote:



Here is something directed related to the topic for you:

http://www.skepdic.com/chi.html




Nope.I dont think it has anything to do with the topic.
.
Fileboy, Jude aint interested.

Need something to stimulate my brain not something to bore me.


Jude



Edited by jude33 (01/07/08 10:25 PM)

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#375120 - 01/07/08 11:26 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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jude33, if you cannot see how that relates to the topic, I don't know how to help you.

I think jude just wants to talk to people who agree with him so he can protect his illusions.

Ok, jude33. Beleive what you like: there really IS a Santya Claus.

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#375121 - 01/07/08 11:56 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

jude33, if you cannot see how that relates to the topic, I don't know how to help you.

I think jude just wants to talk to people who agree with him so he can protect his illusions.

Ok, jude33. Beleive what you like: there really IS a Santya Claus.




I dont think you could help me anyhow. Posting someone elses work is easy.
I think you should read the article about the experiment.
Read the article you posted.
Then prove to me they are the same topic.
And perhaps answer the questions that have been put to you.
Otherwise yet again your posting some one elses work

Then it could be discussed.

So what do you know about people adapting to the cold? What do you know about Brown fat?
And where is that in the topic you posted?



Jude.

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#375122 - 01/08/08 06:15 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Jude33,

When I make assertion you demand evidence; when I provide evidence you criticize me for using someone else's ideas.

I know what happens next: I make another assertion. You demand evidence. I provide evidence. You dismiss it as someone else's ideas.

I get it now.

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#375123 - 01/08/08 06:51 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Jude33,

When I make assertion you demand evidence; when I provide evidence you criticize me for using someone else's ideas.

I know what happens next: I make another assertion. You demand evidence. I provide evidence. You dismiss it as someone else's ideas.

I get it now.




Nope

You dont do anything other than post other peoples works.
I havent once seen anything you have worked out.
As I said instead of dismissing things show me the comparison between the topic and the article you posted.
Otherwise all you are doing is increasing the amount of postings you put up.

Jude

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#375124 - 01/08/08 07:22 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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I have posted over 500 times, and I don't think more than three of my posts have included other people's work.

But that is not the point: if I simply "work out" things on my own, you don't accept what I say as legitimate evidence. If I refer to outside sources, you still don't accept it.


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#375125 - 01/08/08 07:48 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

I have posted over 500 times, and I don't think more than three of my posts have included other people's work.

But that is not the point: if I simply "work out" things on my own, you don't accept what I say as legitimate evidence. If I refer to outside sources, you still don't accept it.






This seems to be going around in circles.
If you want a discussion then take out parts of the experiment. Write them out.
State what you agree with or dissagree with.
State why.

From what I wrote.
Do you disagree with the part about the body fat?
The part about the meditation?
Adaptation to cold?
The mind use during this adaptation?
How do you think it is used?

Then state your views.

Jude

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#375126 - 01/08/08 09:42 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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First of all, you do not get to dictate to me or anyone else what, how, or in what order we respond to you. Who the @#$% do you think you are? This ain't no prison and I ain't your bitch, bitch.

Second, of all, if I tell you what I think, you will demand evidence. If I provide evidence, you will refuse to consider it on the ground I did not tell you what I think.

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#375127 - 01/08/08 11:32 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

First of all, you do not get to dictate to me or anyone else what, how, or in what order we respond to you. Who the @#$% do you think you are? This ain't no prison and I ain't your bitch, bitch.

Second, of all, if I tell you what I think, you will demand evidence. If I provide evidence, you will refuse to consider it on the ground I did not tell you what I think.



hey everyone, I think you just found a new qualified moderator for this room! he's subtle, diplomatic, emotionally-attenuated and obviously knowledgeable...

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#375128 - 01/09/08 12:58 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: Ed_Morris]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Sorry, but we all have our limits.

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#375129 - 01/09/08 11:19 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Fileboy
Quote:

First of all, you do not get to dictate to me



Dictate =To issue orders or commands

Jude
Quote:


This seems to be going around in circles.
If you want a discussion.




The word “If” gives you the choice of discussing the topic with me or not.
The topic is the experiment and what the poster wrote at the start of the thread.
The topic drifted I attempted to bring it back.
Quote:


or anyone else what, how, or in what order we respond to you.




Which anyone else? There wasn’t anyone else. Either the comments had fileboy written above or were addressed to your response box. As I said I am willing to discuss the topic. Unwilling to discuss other things which have no relevance to the topic.
Quote:


Who the @#$% do you think you are? This ain't no prison and I ain't your bitch, bitch.




This is where I think/suggest rather than finding fault with things like “chi” you should take up meditation and/or consider to start to believe in chi.

Your above statement might indicate you have very little self control.

Seems like you have had some bad experience.
That isn’t my business.

Please try to stay in control. I would suggest use your mind and Concentrate. Other people use a little chant .
I have thought up a chant. You might wish to share.
Chi exists
Ki exists
Chi exists
repeat Etc etc
Quote:


Second, of all, if I tell you what I think, you will demand evidence. If I provide evidence, you will refuse to consider it on the ground I did not tell you what I think





I think it might be said you could realy benefit from meditation.
Might need to clear your mind.
If you post a link and ask me to consider it and I consider it nothing to do with the topic why are you getting confused?

So If you would like a discussion with me about the topic then fine.
If you choose to drift to far off topic I am not interested

Fileboy lighten up.
The world is a wondefull place even with chi, prisons and global warming.

That wasnt an order more of a suggestion
Jude

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#375130 - 01/09/08 05:53 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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I have to hand it to you, jude33. The amount of time and energy you have devoted to this is charming in an oddway.

May the force be with you.

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#375131 - 01/09/08 06:06 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:



I have to hand it to you, jude33. The amount of time and energy you have devoted to this is charming in an oddway.

May the force be with you.




Didnt take long, about 2 mins and chi can be defined as energy as we have established.
So how about you lighten up and discuss the topic.
Self control is something that has to be worked on.

Jude

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#375132 - 01/10/08 01:18 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
Sorin Offline
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Hmm I wouldn't mind commenting on this thread, though I have to go a good ways back to the start to find the actual subject of the thread.

Subject #1: Chi - Maybe there is some force that we can learn to control to control our bodies, heal, or reduce damage to nothing. Or maybe it has to do with just some really talented people who have trained their butts off to be able to control various aspect of their bodies and minds far better then normal people. If someone wants to prove it scientifically, then go for it if someone's willing to fund it. Just because something hasn't been proven by science at this moment doesn't mean it's untrue or BS. Maybe the studies will show that the "feats" are nothing more then extreme body control, or maybe they'll show that it's something beyond the current scientific understanding.

Subject 2: Science - Our science is created by people doing tests and researching subjects. Through these tests, we get a better understanding of how things work. But, it can't be considered as the absolute truth. It's interesting when people cry for scientific evidence for this and that without really thinking about the nature of science. I'll be the first to say that I would hold most things proven through science to be fairly true in most cases, but don't forget that all science starts out as a hypothesis. Then it's subjected to tests and years, and if the results are similar then it's considered a theory. Then after time it becomes considered a law. A law is generally accepted as true. It is not considered absolute truth. Because science is obtained with our current technology and current understanding, many things change as those two factors grow. If you look at a diagram of an atom from early physics and compare it to what you would see in a modern day book, you'll notice a bit of a difference. What was once considered by most scientists to be what it looked like, is not the same now. So, is there a mystical force that people can control? Maybe, maybe not.. Can science prove it? Perhaps.. Though it's probably more possible that if such a thing exists our knowledge and technology would be insufficient to completely understand it. Maybe in a few hundred years, if we haven't destroyed the earth or died of heat stroke we'll know for sure. Until then, we'll just have to debate it back and forth. Just remember, that science isn't always gospel. I would bet that if we had the ability to go anywhere in this universe and study everything out there, we would find that all of our accumulated scientific knowledge is nothing more then a children's book if you compare it to reality.

In the end, all everyone is probably going to end up doing is arguing. It's a shame that there seems to be a majority of two camps. Those that believe what they see and hear completely and those that think it's a magic trick without even considering the possibility. It would be far better if the believers were a little more skeptical and the skeptics opened their minds a little bit more. Surely the middle ground is always the easiest place for everyone to meet without killing each other.

Sorin


Edited by Sorin (01/10/08 01:25 AM)

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#375133 - 01/10/08 06:40 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: Sorin]
jude33 Offline
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These analogies further reinforce the idea that
plasticity of consciousness remains a key factor in successful biological adaptation.

My thoughts.
The thoughts from certain scientists who have done research
In meditation indicate to me that a persons belief of chi in the correct way will have a positive effect on their body. If they believe and the body is physically capable of doing given tasks it will

The practice of meditation (to me at least) is a way of reprogramming the mind.

Looking for another persons wrong meaning of chi wouldnt gain anything for the person who is looking.

Jude

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#375134 - 01/10/08 07:07 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: Sorin]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Would you consider applying for a job at the United Nations?

"It's a shame that there seems to be a majority of two camps. Those that believe what they see and hear completely and those that think it's a magic trick without even considering the possibility. It would be far better if the believers were a little more skeptical and the skeptics opened their minds a little bit more"

You left out a third camp -- those that have actually put in the time and effort to train (for years) to acquire contact with and control of this "force/energy" and feel it coursing through their bodies at the speed of thought. For this camp, it is not a theory.

They may not be able to say what exactly this is in terms of current scientific terminology or where it's found on the Periodic Table or where it stands under Newton's Laws or whether it has any bearing on the current understanding of Quantum Physics. But the answer that this camp has to give when asked the question -- do you believe in this Bio-physio-energy (which the chinese gave it the name of 'chi' for reasons which I have explained elsewhere) -- would have been the same answer that Jesus Christ would have given if asked the question whether He believed in God, and the answer would have been No!
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#375135 - 01/10/08 07:40 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:


They may not be able to say what exactly this is in terms of current scientific terminology or where it's found on the Periodic Table or where it stands under Newton's Laws or whether it has any bearing on the current understanding of Quantum Physics. But the answer that this camp has to give when asked the question -- do you believe in this Bio-physio-energy (which the chinese gave it the name of 'chi' for reasons which I have explained elsewhere) -- would have been the same answer that Jesus Christ would have given if asked the question whether He believed in God, and the answer would have been No!




I cant quite see the comparision?


There are a lot of unexplained things on this planet.

One being because of the enviroment of certain forests in North America there are forest fires.
The cones from the trees only open during intense heat.
Survival of the trees dictates this.
How and where is the programming for such an event?
No one knows so it is just accepted.

I think the very belief that chi exists should bring about positive change.
I would like to ask a question.
How/ what method did the people train for years?

Jude

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#375136 - 01/10/08 08:00 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

I cant quite see the comparision?




When you "know" something, it is no longer a "belief"


Quote:

How/ what method did the people train for years?




My method STARTS with ('AIR') the "Arbitrary Initiation Ritual"
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#375137 - 01/10/08 08:31 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:



My method STARTS with ('AIR') the "Arbitrary Initiation Ritual"




Cant find a thing on this. Not on the internet.
And why should initiation to something help with meditation.

Explain please?

Jude

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#375138 - 01/10/08 09:05 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Guessed update.

Physiological preparation
I am guessing that part of the physiological preparation is the gradual build up of brown fat in the body done by gradual exposure to the cold.

It seems the human body does adapt to cold conditions given the right process. Once adapted, then, where as a person not adapted to the cold would normally shiver the person who has adapted wouldn’t.

Exercise increases the thermogenic effect of brown fat.
The use of the brown fat for heat would be on top of the normal process of the bodies normal heat production.

The release of norepinephrine (that is the hormone released under stress) is the hormone that activates an enzyme that splits the brown fat cell causing heat.



Psychological preparation.

Plasticity of consciousness remains a key factor in successful biological adaptation.

Certain Scientists are lead to believe that further evidence is being gained with regards to the normal process of the human bodies heat production, being bye-passed by that persons trained consciousness thought(s).

Combine this with the heat from the brown fat build up on the human body, might be the reasons for the body heat rising while sitting in the cold.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (01/10/08 09:30 AM)

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#375139 - 01/11/08 08:46 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Certain Scientists are lead to believe that further evidence is being gained with regards to the normal process of the human bodies heat production, being bye-passed by a persons trained conscious thought process(s). Meditation.

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#375140 - 01/12/08 01:52 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

Cant find a thing on this. Not on the internet.




Have you tried FightingArts.com?
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#375141 - 01/12/08 03:49 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Cant find a thing on this. Not on the internet.




Have you tried FightingArts.com?




Yes.

Interesting answer. Its a hidden secret ?

Its ok I will just stumble along.

Jude

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#375142 - 01/12/08 06:43 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

Its a hidden secret ?




No. It was fully explained with the actual methods in a thread some time ago. Maybe around the later part of last year; probably in this Forum, you know, the usual mutual annihilation chi-wars? You were obviously not paying attention. Maybe Ed Morris can remember where and when; afterall, it was he who came up with 'arbitrary initiation ritual' for which I was most grateful, as previously, it had no name.
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#375143 - 01/12/08 12:27 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Its a hidden secret ?




No. It was fully explained with the actual methods in a thread some time ago. Maybe around the later part of last year; probably in this Forum, you know, the usual mutual annihilation chi-wars? You were obviously not paying attention. Maybe Ed Morris can remember where and when; afterall, it was he who came up with 'arbitrary initiation ritual' for which I was most grateful, as previously, it had no name.




Might be I wasnt paying attention. I was more than likely training and missed it.

Interesting that if the term chi did'nt exist then there wouldnt be any chi- annihilation-wars. Because there would be nothing to argue about. Because it is argued about then it must exist.


Either way I cant find it.

I ponder if that gives Ed any intellectual copyright, rights?

Jude

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#375144 - 01/12/08 06:26 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
Sorin Offline
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Well plenty of people can argue about things that don't exist. I can't tell you how many arguments I've heard from kids about Santa or the Boogeyman. Or some of the more nerdy individuals arguing about some comic book series or sci-fi show. None of these really exist in reality, but you can still argue about them. In economics class we have arguments on selling widgets. Now widgets do not exist but you can still discuss them. Now I'm not saying that chi or something to that effect doesn't exist, I'm just saying that you can argue about fictional stuff just as much as you can argue about something real. Personally I tend to lean more toward the existence of it.

I'd say if he made it, he has the rights so that means that you do owe Ed about $3.50. He'll probably come to collect it from you soon I imagine.

Butterfly: Why should I be on the UN? :-P I didn't leave out the third camp, I just wanted to point out the two main camps that end up arguing about this subject. The third camp typically isn't around to comment or doesn't in most cases.

Sorin

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#375145 - 01/13/08 12:24 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

Either way I cant find it




Found it.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...rt=all&vc=1

Quote:

I ponder if that gives Ed any intellectual copyright, rights?




Don't give Ed any ideas.

Sorin.

UN? that piece sounded like what Kofe Annan would have written.

Why do you lean towards it's existence? Have you felt it? If not, how can you be sure?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#375146 - 01/13/08 07:18 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:



10 mins. smiling with your eyes closed"
does receiving oral sex count?


"10 mins. concentrating on your finger-tips (without the smile)"
Happens every New England winter in a non-heated dojo...and I can't even imagine 2-person kobudo with freezing temps.


BP, people don't have to follow some kind of arbitrary initiation ritual to understand IMA concepts.





Found it!!

I sort of lost track of the conversation at that time for some reason.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (01/13/08 07:23 AM)

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#375147 - 01/14/08 10:46 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
pathfinder7195 Offline
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Great post Sorin.

This article talks about the monks being able to raise their outside body temperature in their fingers and toes by 17degrees while keeping their core temp at 98.6. Dr. Benson gives a few ideas on how he thinks the monks are able to do that.
http://focus.hms.harvard.edu/1996/Mar1_1996/Off_the_Quad.html

This is a new study by five neuroscientists studying the Dalai Lama's monks to see if meditation can rewire the brain making some connections stronger while making others weaker. Not by physical activity but purely mental. Both links are the same study the second one has a bit of flair.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/13890
http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/web/News/Meditation_Alters_Brain_WSJ_11-04.htm


The very first study I posted at the start of this thread I always found fascinating. What amazes me most is that the researchers are studying the by product of the monk's meditation. The reason they go into this meditation is not to produce heat but for something else. What? I'm not sure. For now the real reason for this meditation cannot be studied because it would be purely subjective at this point. The by product of this meditation alone is more than enough for the re searcher's to try to explain.

When asked how the monks do this they always reply by saying they are using their "chi". Whether or not "chi" exists these monks are capable of doing something that stumps modern science but at the same time giving neuroscientists a chance to learn and study how powerfull the mind can be.

My only intent for this thread is to show that there is qualified research being done by the top Universities on individuals, mainly Buddhist monks who claim that they can use their "chi". I just hope everybody enjoyed the studies regardless if they believe them or not.

Butterfly thanks for all the first hand experience given.

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#375148 - 01/15/08 12:58 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
JMWcorwin Offline
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I think the argument on chi is pretty silly. Whether it does or doesn't exist doesn't matter. It's symantics really. When I do my techniques and incorporate the "Ki" aspects of them they work better, period. So, why does it matter if you call it Ki, Qi,Chi, proper body mehcanics/physiology/kenisiology, etc? If you get the desired results, I don't see the point of arguing the terminology of common experiences. One person sees magic, one person sees tricks, one person sees good form in technique, and one sees internal connections of energy to the universe at large; they're all right if they get the results they were aiming for.

Just MHO. Had to chime in because it seems like this argument is perpetually started and restarted and renamed. I don't see the point in continuing arguments so heatedly about what I see as a fight over what the correct name of these functions are.
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There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#375149 - 01/15/08 11:35 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: JMWcorwin]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

I think the argument on chi is pretty silly. Whether it does or doesn't exist doesn't matter.




It matters because there are people, other than yourself, who wants to explore new things (no matter how outlandish) and hopefully when found to add them to the general pool of human knowledge, whether for it's betterment or otherwise.

The great western explorers of the last four centuries set off for parts of the then "unknown" world not knowing whether they would fall off into a bottomless abyss at the edge, all for the sake of finding where pepper, gloves and nutmeg came from. These acts of innocent curiosity (fired no doubt by unbridled commercialism) changed the world, east and west.

A chinese king in the 16th century for domestic political reasons put a stop to chinese geo-political explorations by burning all large sea-going ships. The world might have been very different had another king been on the dragon throne.

So you see, the explorations of things like Chi goes beyond the mere individual perfection of a few martial art techniques by a particular martial artist (which in 95% of cases will not be used in a real combat situation anyway) If the claims of chi are real, as the monks have demonstrated to a scientist, then it would be scientific dereliction not to explore it further and see where this thing fits in the general scheme of scientific noesis.

This "chi" moves in my body at will and I have no doubt; my problem is being able to say what exactly it is from a scientific perspective and the scientists are doing me a great favor for one day I will not only feel it, but know what it is as well.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#375150 - 01/16/08 01:01 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: JMWcorwin]
Ed_Morris Offline
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If someone chooses to take a conceptual model as a training aide for physically learning something and hype it into a supernatural force...then all the power to them.

in comparrison, if someone can grow up as moral, just, honest and socially compatable as someone else - and lets say the only difference between them is their spiritual belief of where that strength comes from in order to empower them to be a good/full person...then it's a safe bet the source of that strength is interchangeable.


I don't discount the usefulness of a conceptual model for learning aide - I question hype surrounding it in order to capture and ensnare minds.

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#375151 - 01/16/08 02:30 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
JMWcorwin Offline
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Quote:

It matters because there are people, other than yourself, who wants to explore new things




I'm all for exploring new things; never said I wasn't. I also didn't say I didn't believe in chi. I only said that arguing it's existance or non existence seems counter productive to me. If you're Catholic and I'm Muslim, what do you think the chances are of one of us convincing the other to convert? This argument over chi's existence is similar. Both sides have strong beliefs, either pro or con, and the arguement just goes in circles. I've just read too many threads of people trying to convince the other side they're wrong.

Explore it. Please explore it. I have, though I wouldn't compare my study of it anything like a fully funded Harvard program. Look into it for YOURSELF and make your own decisions. (that's advice for all not directed at you personally BP.)
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#375152 - 01/17/08 05:40 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: JMWcorwin]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Fair enough and good training to you.

However I see nothing wrong in having a good argument (if done in a civil manner as befitting people who are martial artists and a gentleman and of course lady, the latter of which generally behave themselves )

I for one am not looking for a 'victory' as the martial arts, be it EMA or IMA, is a matter of self-discovery and hopefully accomplishments and I don't see myself as out to save the martial arts world as I myself can see a long long road ahead though I've been at it for almost half a century.
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I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#375153 - 01/23/08 07:27 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Vennificus Offline
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now all we have to do Is see if we can focus our internal energy in different ways.
This study shows that we can control our body conciously, Which I kinda think is just something the human body can do, yay end of story.
But this flow of force that supposedly runs through the human body, We have yet to determine
a) if it exists?
b) what are it's relations to physical matter?
c) what laws does it follow?
I could ask the question "anybody have answers?" but i can tell no one does.
The concept has been around for so long without being disproven that it's hard to ignore,
but it has been around equally long without being proven, that it is hard to take at face value.

I can't help but wonder. Are we ever going to find the truth behind it?
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#375154 - 01/25/08 12:10 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: JMWcorwin]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Judes thoughts.

Quote:

I think the argument on chi is pretty silly.




I dont think it is silly. Chi is defined in one sense as energy. In other ways people have took the meaning of chi to wards silly. The definition should be made clear.

Quote:



does or doesn't exist doesn't matter.





The term/ definition of chi as energy exists.

Quote:


It's symantics really.





I disagree. Its definition.

Quote:



When I do my techniques and incorporate the "Ki" aspects of them they work better, period. So, why does it matter if you call it Ki, Qi,Chi, proper body mehcanics/physiology/kenisiology, etc?






I think that physical exercise is required. I think in the experiments I have looked at require some form of physical
preperation as in the building up of brown fat before the
mind could be used. How the monks used their mind I havent even touched on. Yet.

Quote:


If you get the desired results, I don't see the point of arguing the terminology of common experiences. One person sees magic, one person sees tricks, one person sees good form in technique, and one sees internal connections of energy to the universe at large; they're all right if they get the results they were aiming for.





I think there is difference. The tricksters should be recognised. If there is a way meditaion can work it should be explored.

Internal energy connection to the universe isnt such a flowery dream as portrayed. If chi is a term for energy then so is the universe full of energy. Proven by science.





Just MHO. Had to chime in because it seems like this argument is perpetually started and restarted and renamed. I don't see the point in continuing arguments so heatedly about what I see as a fight over what the correct name of these functions are.




I think it is wide open to argument. If people wish to practice what I deem it as tricks then fine. That should be brought out and recognised as such.
That doesnt detract from the fact that correct meditation might be a good thing if it can be learned.

Jude

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#375155 - 01/25/08 07:24 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
JMWcorwin Offline
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I think you misread me a little. The whole point of that post was just that I see it as counter-productive to try and convince someone your strong beliefs w/o proof are more correct than their strong beliefs w/o proof.

It's just as bad as a religious or political argument. The chances of one side swaying the other with their argument is next to nothing.

And now I may be misreading you, but it seems that you thought I said chi was silly. I didn't. I merely said arguing about it's existance was silly. That also means I didn't say researching it or studying it was silly. Just the argument.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#375156 - 01/25/08 08:55 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: JMWcorwin]
Vennificus Offline
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It is a silly argument. until someone expresses convincing relation between Ki and matter, there will be too much skepticism.
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#375157 - 01/25/08 10:36 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: JMWcorwin]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

I think you misread me a little. The whole point of that post was just that I see it as counter-productive to try and convince someone your strong beliefs w/o proof are more correct than their strong beliefs w/o proof.

It's just as bad as a religious or political argument. The chances of one side swaying the other with their argument is next to nothing.

And now I may be misreading you, but it seems that you thought I said chi was silly. I didn't. I merely said arguing about it's existance was silly. That also means I didn't say researching it or studying it was silly. Just the argument.




Hi
Naaaa. Not at all . It seems we are on the same wave-length.
But I think argument is worth while sometimes because I think some people tend to become unrealistic about things.

There seems to be a lot of definitions of chi. The one that I tend to think chi is, would be energy. This exists as an accepted definition in the English language.

At the least thinking positive about something/ anything should have a placebo effect. One use might be on a longer run when feeling tired to imagine feeling extra energy flowing.

I have tried it and it does seem to work although I didnt equate it to the thought of chi.

That more than likely activated increased dopomine levels,
but it doesnt real matter so long as it helps (along with the physical adjustments/improvements ) to get the desired result e.g faster, longer runs.

Still looking in to the study of the use of the mind though.

Jude

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#375158 - 01/26/08 01:09 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

how about this as a working definition of Chi?
An image or images held in the mind of a practitioner which aids in the manifestation of intent. See: Thoughtform.


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#375159 - 01/26/08 03:46 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
feeding the fire:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oGaWhP4lbys&feature=related

comments, thoughts?

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#375160 - 01/26/08 09:36 AM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

feeding the fire:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oGaWhP4lbys&feature=related

comments, thoughts?





Thats easy. This is the kind of explanation for chi that I was refering to when I stated sometimes arguments are good".

There are certain M/A people in this country (whose lineage is established ) that have suddenly took it on them selves to make videos of the same thing.

Why?

I guess to make money. Jump on the band wagen.

This isnt the kind of use of the mind I wish or would waste my time studying.

Jude.



Edited by jude33 (01/26/08 09:39 AM)

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#375161 - 01/26/08 03:12 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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But if chi really exists, why shouldn't this type of thing be possible?

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#375162 - 01/26/08 05:12 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

But if chi really exists, why shouldn't this type of thing be possible?




The definition of chi exists. Beyond that I guess you being a teacher as you say you are you should be able to disprove or prove it exists. You seem to be so interested in the topic why dont you write a thesis?

But can I suggest you use your own work and not copy and paste some one elses?

Jude


----------
maybe I also need to slap your wrists in here too.
PLAY NICE - or else!!


Edited by Reiki (01/26/08 07:40 PM)

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#375163 - 01/26/08 06:09 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: jude33]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Jude33, have you ever gone to school? Do you even know what research is? If someone makes a claim and does not provide evidence--does not cite someone else's work--that claim is considered worthless. Your objection makes absolutely no sense at all.

------------
maybe I also need to slap your wrists in here too.
PLAY NICE - or else!!


Edited by Reiki (01/26/08 07:41 PM)

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#375164 - 01/26/08 11:11 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude33, have you ever gone to school? Do you even know what research is? If someone makes a claim and does not provide evidence--does not cite someone else's work--that claim is considered worthless. Your objection makes absolutely no sense at all.

------------
maybe I also need to slap your wrists in here too.
PLAY NICE - or else!!




I agree with an opinion given by another person on another thread.

The video posted was of fakers.

I think that is what the other person refered to.

To many fakers in the world.

Would you agree?

Jude

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#422345 - 09/14/09 05:11 PM Re: CHI? Tibetan Monks, Harvard, scientific study. [Re: pathfinder7195]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Sorry to bring this one up again, but came across a video clip relating to the article of the original thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-wuOYlxMSY

Very Impressive.
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