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#375031 - 12/31/07 01:20 AM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: ITFunity]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:


Laura, I should have also asked what your definition of Self Defense is? Does it include escapes from holds? Does it include joint manipulation? Does it include defense from weapons? Does it include fighting from your back? Does it include different fighting ranges (i.e. when to kick, when to punch, when to clinch, when to sprawl, when to ground fight)? Does it include using of other body parts as weapons (i.e. feet, hands, knees, elbows, forearms, fingers, shins, your heels, your head)? Does it include awareness?

We all may assume we mean the same thing when discussing Self Defense but that is not always true.





For our youngest students, "self defense" primarily consists of awareness drills, situational roll playing, and basic escapes from grabs. From there the student progresses to joint manipulation, and then takedowns or throws. This includes countering against various weapons, using all parts of the body, from knees and from the ground, however, so far, I've yet to see any grappling at our school.

I think I heard somewhere that most people quit training or move onto something else within 3 or 4 years, yet at a minimum tkd or for that matter, any MA, it apparently, takes around 10 years to become really proficient.

How do you as an instructor balance trying to teach someone who is most likely going to drop out a third of the way through the curriculum, who is physically unfit when they join, who needs years just to become an adult, and who only trains 2 or 3 hours a week?

Some schools, and the military are lucky in that they are able to start with a much higher level of fitness and maturity than the common school, but they are the minority, and while we may strive for the ideal that they are able to achieve, most people don't desire and will never reach that level of skill and fitness.

The people on this site are in the minority, we are are the addicted ones who pick apart the minor details and continually push the limits, who count the seconds until their next class and carry with pride the bumps and bruises earned in training. The other 80 percent? well they might be in it just to counter the hours spent at a desk or eating Christmas cookies or impending old age, to spend time with their families, or to overcome a physical or mental challenge.

The MA's have become popular and most can no longer just pick and choose their students, and can no longer expect that only the physically fit and mature will join. For the MA's to survive, we as the leaders of the next generation of students will need to adapt and either figure out how to keep students training longer, or to pare away all but the bare essentials to be passed on the short amount of time a student might stay and which are achievable by the least competent students in that time frame.

Laura

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#375032 - 12/31/07 02:07 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: tkd_high_green]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Thank you for your reply Laura.

Quote:

I think I heard somewhere that most people quit training or move onto something else within 3 or 4 years, yet at a minimum tkd or for that matter, any MA, it apparently, takes around 10 years to become really proficient.




Unfortunately I think the time is even less then 3 or 4 years and I might push the envelope to say 1 to 2 years before people drop out.

Quote:

How do you as an instructor balance trying to teach someone who is most likely going to drop out a third of the way through the curriculum, who is physically unfit when they join, who needs years just to become an adult, and who only trains 2 or 3 hours a week?




You don't change the training to help the weakest link you help the strongest links. Unfortunately knowing that people will quit you have to understand that if those people want to survive that it has to come within them. Lessening a program to accommodate them does not guarantee they will stay so continue with your regular training and ensure that what you are teaching is always challenging the people who train the most and want the most. The others will work harder to get better and many will while others will work at their own pace and never achieve all that they can but they still can train and learn and have fun; while others will drop out because they can't handle it or don't like it. Those people you don't want and that is an unfortunate fact; martial arts are not for everybody contrary to a lot of people's beliefs.

When I went to school we had 10,20 and 30 classes that were for better explanation classes for people who understood and perhaps excelled. Those that didn't excel and had troubles took lesser courses, 13, 23 and 33. It would be sad if those that excelled had to take the same curriculum as those that didn't and vise versa however it would be a greater travesty for the people who excelled as it would have been a dumbing down for better words. They wouldn't be challenged and would never know what they could achieve if it wasn't given to them.

So what I'm saying is that I think a good school should provide training that challenges the people that excel and those that can't hang in will unfortunately have to accept who they are and either stick around being who they are and not advancing or quit. Trust me, there are plenty of 13,23, 33 schools out there for those that don't excel but something tells me that even those that don't excel wouldn't stay long in the lesser schools either.

A good Instructor has to challenge the class as a whole and that means working towards the higher end and not the lower end. Extra attention can be given to the lower and also allowing them to work to their limits; nobody says those people have to be able to do all that the rest is doing.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#375033 - 12/31/07 04:54 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Dereck]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Dereck, I agree with you as far as teaching goes. Push students to their limits.

My concern is, if as you say, we only have 1 or 2 years with most students, when those students leave at what level of skill should they be? Should they be able to defend themselves?

I'm not saying that we limit the advanced students or make the curriculum easier, but that we think about organizing our starting curriculum to account for the fact that we will loose most students before advanced material can be taught.

Is TKD loosing its reputation because other arts are already adjusting their curriculum to be more effective earlier on, knowing that students will leave in a short time? TKD'ers are good kickers, because we work on that a lot and from the beginning. But should that really be our starting point? Is TKD considered "not effective" because we wait too long to start teaching things other than kicking?

Laura

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#375034 - 12/31/07 06:48 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: tkd_high_green]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I think the majority of martial art are in the same vote as TKD when it comes to students staying; that is human nature. Everybody wants something now and then they move on; most people don't stick with things and why we always have New Year's Resolutions that for the majority is a joke.

I don't expect anybody after 1 or 2 years to be able to defend themselves but they may have some knowledge however as the days, weeks, months and years go by all of that knowledge is useless unless trained so is forgotten. I love hearing from people who tell me they took a martial art 10 years ago ... like that means anything because they couldn't remember a thing and what they do they have poor capabilities at because they haven't been training it. We all know that you need continued training to keep up on stuff because what I've found it that though I've trained for over 5 years that unless I'm training a certain aspect then that skill decreases. Now take that same thing and apply it to somebody that doesn't train at all and the years have gone by ... useless. Telling somebody that you used to take martial arts is as meaningful as telling somebody that you were 5 years old once ... come and gone.

If TKD lost its reputation it is not because other arts are already adjusting their curriculum, it is because TKD has adjusted it "too" much and made it more accessible for anybody. TKD has a black eye in the martial arts community which is a bad thing because there are many good schools out there that don't get their just dues. My own Instructor once thought about changing the name to something else as we train TKD plus many other martial arts such as BJJ but he wanted to still keep the name as he wanted some good TKD to be out there still for people.

Kicking is an important factor in fighting whether you use it or not as you should be familiar with that range of fighting to use it or defend from it. I don't think TKD is ineffective for teaching this early as that is what a large portion of what TKD is and is expected however many schools do teach more then this as I've stated before as at white belt self defense, grappling and learning different fighting ranges including kicking, punching, clinching and ground work is the basis of our curriculum.

Thank you again as I'm enjoying this discussion.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#375035 - 01/01/08 09:48 AM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
EarlWeiss:
Quote:

How you train is how you will perform.To a large extent the flaw will lie in the training, not in the art.




Just caught this thread and I gotta agree with Earl. TKD has weak links (IMO groundwork), but this can be corrected on a school to school basis by training with a judo/BJJ etc instructor and incorporating this training into the school. That point aside, I reiterate, its not the art thats at fault, but the way it is taught.

If we see TKD as blue playdo, what we need to do is simply squash it all back togethor and divide it up into equal parts again, adding soem orange playdo in to the mix (orange being the groundwork aspect).

Problem is, TKD is too fragmented to do this, so its down to individual instructors!


Usenthemighty
Quote:

I thought I'd make a list of TKD's faults and offer my solution:



this I found interesting, as it sorta backs up my point an others points on here about what each person is individually exposed to. So thought I thought I'd respond:

Quote:

1. unrealistic sparing



As I said above, it depends on how the club trains. If its all comp style sparring then yes, thats unrealistic for SD, but not for comps. My seniors do predominatly 'Traditional Sparring' which allows takedowns, throws, locks etc. and even continues on the floor. Contact varies from medium to heavy to occassionally full contact.. I see this as the most realistic type of sparring available and we started doing this way before the term 'MMA' was even heard of!

Quote:

too much padding



For sport sparring we use hand/foot pads.. for traditional sparring we now use 'grappling/MMA' style gloves, before we used what we used for sport sparring (semi-contact pads) less foot pads or 10oz boxing gloves.

Quote:

too kata centric, and not application



Not at my school http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/HaeSul/HaeSul.html

Quote:

no experience in all ranges of combat



Well as Ive already stated, Traditional sparring covers all ranges right down to the floor!

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB9K6ljoy-c

I can testify this system of training works, not just from my own experience, but in the last few years a couple of studnets have been attacked, two by multiple attackers (with weapons) and all have faired well and turned the tables. the point Im making is that if trained correctly, TKd is more than viable for self defence. We do pretty good at competition too funnily enough!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#375036 - 01/02/08 11:50 AM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
That was good TKD training and varied.

I hope you dont mind me making some comments.
The pattern application bit still looked like the opponent was not resisting though.
Was that just because it was a demo?
Were the free sparring parts showing attempted pattern applications with resistance?
Or was that just free sparring?

............................................................

To my knowledge,correct if I am wrong, basicaly the military TKD had body forging and applying techniques with max power as a BIG part meaning that if you hit with power,no matter what you hit you damage without damage to yourself..So, for example, even if they were to cover a straight punch you would damage their forearms enough to go on and finish it.
If so.Taking something like body forging to the extent needed to apply TKD as it was meant ,which hardly any one does, takes away the idea of TKD totaly.And so making it ineffective.
Plus then theres the problem of being unable to spar realisticaly without injuries.
How did they spar in the military TKD years?
Was it all ranges?
Was it just totaly loony,injuries,knockouts?

How did they train these techniques which were meant to kill and realy damage?
The closest way I can think of is realistic (as possible) pad drills or bag work.
Is that what they did?

TKD as its original idea cant be trained realisticaly can it?Is that not a big fault? Great idea though impracticle to train?
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#375037 - 01/02/08 01:04 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

That was good TKD training and varied.



Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.

Quote:

I hope you dont mind me making some comments.



Not at all.

Quote:

The pattern application bit still looked like the opponent was not resisting though. Was that just because it was a demo?



Applications, like true SD dont actually look very good on video.. we did film some full flow but they didnt portray what we felt was required, hence they didnt make the cut! So yes, it was simply some drills and some demonstrations of applications that can be trained.. not a full out fight sequence.


Quote:

Were the free sparring parts showing attempted pattern applications with resistance?
Or was that just free sparring?



Traditional sparring! For those that have read my book on the subject, they will know that I believe patterns apps come before fighting, hence when traditional sparring apps are not used as readily (though some can be).


Quote:

To my knowledge,correct if I am wrong, basicaly the military TKD had body forging and applying techniques with max power as a BIG part meaning that if you hit with power,no matter what you hit you damage without damage to yourself..So, for example, even if they were to cover a straight punch you would damage their forearms enough to go on and finish it.



Body conditioning yes.. full contact all the time.. no. Rough sparring was part and parcel but not to a degree of damaging yur oppoenent so they cant get up to continue the next day!

Quote:

If so.Taking something like body forging to the extent needed to apply TKD as it was meant ,which hardly any one does, takes away the idea of TKD totaly.And so making it ineffective.



How so?

Quote:

Plus then theres the problem of being unable to spar realisticaly without injuries.



Yes, thats why we do between light and heavy sparring and seniors only for dangerous stuff (like elbows etc.) as they can control it better, but moreso understand the implications of a light blow (as it could have been with a heavier blow) if you get my point!

Quote:

How did they spar in the military TKD years?
Was it all ranges?



According to those Ive spoke to.. often long & close range to take downs and follow ups. Regular group sparring at kicking and punching range.

Quote:

Was it just totaly loony,injuries,knockouts?



Not as far as Im aware.. hard yes, consistent KO'ing oppoenents.. no!

Quote:

How did they train these techniques which were meant to kill and realy damage?
The closest way I can think of is realistic (as possible) pad drills or bag work.
Is that what they did?



Hosinsul and 1 step sparring.


Quote:

TKD as its original idea cant be trained realisticaly can it?Is that not a big fault? Great idea though impracticle to train?



It can be train as realistically as the law allows and students are willing to go. Obviously everyone has to respect safety but that doesnt mean you cant go harder than tap tap and as long as students understand that when I touch there eyes with my fingers I am substituting that instead of a gouge, all is good.. without understanding the pros and cons.. then its a lot harder! You could say an arm bar cannot be trained realistically.. as to me, realistic is to breaking point.. how many would be happy with that though!!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (01/02/08 01:09 PM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#375038 - 01/02/08 03:15 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: matxtx]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Plus then theres the problem of being unable to spar realisticaly without injuries.
How did they spar in the military TKD years?
Was it all ranges?
Was it just totaly loony,injuries,knockouts?
<<<<

Someone asked Pioneer Han Cha Kyo this question. Basicaly what he told them is they would be crazy to do this since they might be going into battle at any moment and to have to risk doing so with injuries would be totaly nuts.

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#375039 - 01/02/08 06:27 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Thanks.Interesting.

Quote:

Applications, like true SD dont actually look very good on video.. we did film some full flow but they didnt portray what we felt was required, hence they didnt make the cut! So yes, it was simply some drills and some demonstrations of applications that can be trained.. not a full out fight sequence.




Id have liked to have seen.I am still sceptical.I cant believe it untill I see it.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If so.Taking something like body forging to the extent needed to apply TKD as it was meant ,which hardly any one does, takes away the idea of TKD totaly.And so making it ineffective.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How so?




As far as I am aware from higher grades and training the idea of TKD as it was intended was to basicaly hit and defend (block) hard,fast and powerfully so much so that even if they,for example, covered a straight punch you would damage their arms not yourself and go on to 'destroy' the opponent.Linear,direct and hard.So forging is needed for this.
Rther than,say,a boxer who looks to get openings or counter.So without the forging, that hard, solid linear style is not as tacticaly sound.

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How did they train these techniques which were meant to kill and realy damage?
The closest way I can think of is realistic (as possible) pad drills or bag work.
Is that what they did?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hosinsul and 1 step sparring.




Hosinsul and one step still need a certain amount of co-operation and 'playing along'.But I guess,yes,its the best that can be done safely.
Maybe some kind of one step with pads would be good.

Personaly Id rather just spar or drill NHB/MMA style then treat the 'lethal' stuff from my TKD as a bonus if there is an opening for it.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#375040 - 01/02/08 06:56 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Id have liked to have seen.I am still sceptical.I cant believe it untill I see it.



Another problems with training applications for "first instances" is the lack of surprise... so a lot simply end up as drills anyway. They can be used "in fight" but I dont believe personally thats their main purpose.. that being to stop a fight before it starts.. after that, thats the sparring/fighting side of things. two different things that overlap somewhat!

Quote:

As far as I am aware from higher grades and training the idea of TKD as it was intended was to basicaly hit and defend (block) hard,fast and powerfully so much so that even if they,for example, covered a straight punch you would damage their arms not yourself and go on to 'destroy' the opponent.Linear,direct and hard.So forging is needed for this.



I get ya.. but I think you may be confusing it with Masutatsu Oyama and his style... though he was Korean!

Quote:

Hosinsul and one step still need a certain amount of co-operation and 'playing along'



No they dont, they need a certain amount of restraint on the defenders part and they have limits if thats what you mean. The attacker can still attack full power if required and strike to hit rather than pull it! We do both from a parallel ready stance, so no elongated motion either.. simply kihup & attaack immediatly (no kihup for hosinsul). What do you mean by playing along?


Quote:

Personaly Id rather just spar or drill NHB/MMA style then treat the 'lethal' stuff from my TKD as a bonus if there is an opening for it.



And that type of sparring is quite valid IMO and a good way to spar (hence why we do similar).. its just that to me thats what happens when self defence goes bad! (And self defence is what happens when self protection goes bad).


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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