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#375021 - 12/28/07 04:39 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Good discussion guys! Might I chime in with my 2 cents?

I can honestly say that Self Defense is one of the last things I think of when I am doing TKD. I'm trying to learn to strike when I go to TKD. There is a small grappling syllabus at my school but I neither think it is that effective, nor do we spend enough time on it to make it truly useful. This does not worry me in the least.

I'll explain: I never entered TKD with the expectation of being able to defend myself, I was far more interested in simply attaining the fitness, control and skill that TKD offered. Through doing it I am doing so, and I feel I have a very competent striking game. There is a judo dojo in my city, and I know full well that if I want to learn grappling I can go there(I started in February). It is no problem for me that my dojang is somewhat limited in the skills it offers, afterall every art is incomplete and as long as a fair amount of the fight game is covered then that's fine. ITF TKD covers stand-up striking very well, including punching to the head, so I've got that covered.

If I was to start a school or teach classes, I would have no problem continuing to teach a purely striking art. I would feel no need to incorporate grappling into the syllabus because I would not try to teach self defense and I could always point out a judo or wrestling club down the road for people who wanted to learn to grapple.

Maybe I'm alone in thinking that if you are going to teach something, you might as well teach it well, and that is very difficult to do if your syllabus involves everything from stand-up striking to submission wrestling. I mean, try and squeeze that into a 2 hour class! I am a big believer in the "jack of all trades and master of none" theory. If you want to learn to grapple, go to a grappling school; if you want to learn to strike, go to a striking school. I find it difficult to believe that one teacher can pass on both aspects to a high level. This is another reason I have never considered joining a MMA school.

Does this make sense?

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#375022 - 12/28/07 04:46 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: fileboy2002]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

The truth is while TKD did cover more ground years ago before most schools became so sports oriented, it was never anywhere near a "complete" martial art. No martial art is complete. The trouble is, the area in which TKD is most complete--kicking--is probably the least important in terms of practical self defense. Don't get me wrong: strong kicking skills are a fine thing to have. However, they are nowhere near as critical to practical self defense as good boxing and--most critically--wrestling skills.




Well you may be right, there is no complete MA, TKD or one strain of it (Oh Do Kwan), was developed in the military as a modern & mixed MA. The problem really lies with the strong desire to be considered different from Karate & the hated Japanese. This led the JiDo kwan to develop distinctly different tournament rules, so it would be considered it own unique KMA. Of course, they were so successful. it eventually became an Olympic sport. Also rememebr that south Korea was a poor developing country & it early & strongest export was MA teaches, who saw & took an opportunity to make money abroad. JMHO

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#375023 - 12/28/07 04:46 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Supremor]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Does this make sense?




Unfortunately, the idea of compartmentalized training aspects being better than wholistic training is not correct, IMO. The ability to apply different skills and ranges synergistically is a skill unto itself, and is not as easily transferable as one might think.

The wholistic/synergistic aspect is the core of MMA.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#375024 - 12/28/07 04:50 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I think anybody that does a martial art should question what they are doing. Is there more? Is what I'm doing enough?




Right on! However part of the problem is, many do not know they are being ripped off, as it may be the 1st exposure to the Arts. If you signed up you would know pretty early on, if you were or your kid was getting ripped off.for most other physical activities, like sports,

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#375025 - 12/28/07 05:14 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Maybe I'm alone in thinking that if you are going to teach something, you might as well teach it well, and that is very difficult to do if your syllabus involves everything from stand-up striking to submission wrestling. I mean, try and squeeze that into a 2 hour class! I am a big believer in the "jack of all trades and master of none" theory. If you want to learn to grapple, go to a grappling school; if you want to learn to strike, go to a striking school. I find it difficult to believe that one teacher can pass on both aspects to a high level. This is another reason I have never considered joining a MMA school.




You are correct, it is very difficult to fit all of that in and we most certainly attempt our best. We have to learn the full TKD curriculum as set out by the WTF while we incorporate everything from stand up to take down plus try to relate all to self defense. If I trained specifically on just what the WTF wanted then I could have achieved a black belt status far quicker then what I did however I would know less and be less. But my Instructor will agree with you, if you want to be very proficient in punching then take up boxing; if you want to be very proficient in grappling then take up BJJ or Judo; if you want to be a proficient fighter then join a MMA school. We touch on each of these but not to the depth they have to offer especially with other things in the curriculum. Many such as myself have come in on weekends or stayed late into the night training further not to mention going to tournaments where you can learn even more.

I personally like the idea of learning everything and I will take my Instructor up on training else where to broaden those skills further. How ever much time I have on this world is how much time I can train ... body and mind pending of course. I may never master any, excel more in some and lack in others but I'll have a good foundation in each with something to build on.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#375026 - 12/29/07 12:50 AM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Dereck]
flynch Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/07
Posts: 265
Each art offers what it offers and that is not a bad thing.

For people who have been studying one art for decades they should know that there are many ways to do things. Their way is not the only way. To Master one art is a very commendable thing it takes years of disciple and hard work. It is a different goal than being proficeint in many different skills.

It is great that there are masters of different arts/skills. I can choose to focus my trainning on one or take a general approach or go somewhere in between. If everybody just choose to study one way because it was deemed the best at any given time we would be left with one system and then it would be the person in the better physical shape that would be left standing.

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#375027 - 12/29/07 10:15 AM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: flynch]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe I'm alone in thinking that if you are going to teach something, you might as well teach it well, and that is very difficult to do if your syllabus involves everything from stand-up striking to submission wrestling. I mean, try and squeeze that into a 2 hour class! I am a big believer in the "jack of all trades and master of none" theory. If you want to learn to grapple, go to a grappling school; if you want to learn to strike, go to a striking school. I find it difficult to believe that one teacher can pass on both aspects to a high level. This is another reason I have never considered joining a MMA school.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go to a Steve Morris Primal sessions in Coventry and you will see it done.


Also it could be argued that the amount of instructors in martial arts who are not actualy that good or know what fighting and self protection is like for real is a fact in not many able to pass on striking and grappling trained together ,tacticaly and sensibly good.

Genuine martial arts and self protection,the physical side,is grappling with idea of striking and striking with the idea of grappling.Its one.Not seperate.A 'style' is where it seperates.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#375028 - 12/29/07 12:15 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: matxtx]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
It would indeed be foolish for a single instructor to try to teach everything. However, in most cases MMA schools have multiple instructors who focus on different aspects of the cirriculum. Each is an expert in a single area, and students divide their training week between different teachers.

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#375029 - 12/29/07 01:03 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: TeK9]
Usenthemighty Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
Well everyone responded to this ,so I thought I should as well. By the way this is a interesting tread. I thought I'd make a list of TKD's faults and offer my solution:
1. unrealistic sparing
2. too much padding
3. too kata centric, and not application
4. no experience in all ranges of combat
However, my solution would be to:
1. Have more live sparing, and less rules.
2. only safety gear is gloves and mouth peice
3.less on doing kata and more on certain moves in kata that one can do in realistic sparing.
4. Have them fight people that do what they don't do, such as wreslters, Judokas, Samboist, etc. (experience in fighting in other ranges really freaking helps)
I believe if that all happened over just 5yrs TKD's image would change into a more creditable fighting art.

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#375030 - 12/30/07 05:51 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Usenthemighty]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

3. too kata centric
3.less on doing kata and more on certain moves in kata that one can do in realistic sparing.



4. Have them fight people that do what they don't do, such as wreslters, Judokas, Samboist, etc. (experience in fighting in other ranges really freaking helps)




#4 is a great point!!!!!!!

However, there are no Katas in TKD!

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