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#375011 - 12/28/07 01:52 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: fileboy2002]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Not to belittle your training or dojang or Instructors fileboy, but I find too many people throw out names and then add "a student of General Choi" like that is suppose to mean anything. I cannot tell you how many times I've read this or heard this from people. I think that we need to understand that many people get good training but then they only teach a portion or teach what they are good at while other portions are limited or are not trained at all. I also think that too many people throw out the General's name trying to make them sound more then they really are. Did they actually train with him all of the time or just here and there or just at one of his schools under his students? Because I've gone to seminars put on by some UFC people does that mean I can say I trained with them? I see this on many people's websites or have heard people say this but I think that is a big leap. I've seen on people's websites pictures of them with well known martial art people including General Choi but that doesn't mean much in my eyes because anybody get get a picture standing beside somebody.

I agree, TKD has many faults but again I think that this is only because it is not taught as a whole; I'm sure many schools would blow our minds with what is taught. Now understand that faults and gaps are two different things as I think all martial arts have gaps. Thankfully you realized what you did and took up Judo which sounds very positive in your training. I also agree with your statement that many people don't realize this until they have much time invested; many will turn a blind eye and continue while others will never know. You made a good decision for you.
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#375012 - 12/28/07 02:29 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: fileboy2002]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I have heard this from my own teacher as well. Studied TKD, but had other MA under his belt before then and always had questions. An added complication to jumping ship from TKD can also be that as one becomes a teacher one feels obligated to stick around for the sake of the students. TKD is notorious for throwing teaching responsibilities on students early on...other arts insist on at least 10 years of training before teaching. Kinda makes it harder to make the decision to leave...to seek more. Especially with that whole 'loyalty' matra stuff that is promulgated in TKD dojos.

Quote:

I think the reason TKD practioners have trouble facing up to the limitations of TKD is because by the time we know enough to ask the relevant questions, we are so deeply invested in our art we cannot bear to face the possibility we have been wasting our time. This was true for me. I spent 15 years in TKD and had earned a 2nd degree black belt before I could admit that TKD, as much as I loved it, had serious gaps that needed to be filled. Like you, I kept wwaitng for the "real" training to begin. When I realized it never would, I started studying judo. That led to a second crisis, of sorts. I was mortified to realize that, after a year of judo training, I had learned more about practical self-defense than I had in 15 years of TKD!

I know people are going to read this and say, "you must have gone to a bad school," or something similar. I did not. I trained at an excellent dojang under Han Cha Kyo, a student of Gen. Choi's and one of the art's founders. Much of what I learned was fascinating--it just wasn't much use in real self-defense siuations.



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#375013 - 12/28/07 02:46 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Dereck]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
The fact Han Cha Kyo was a student of Choi's is well documented and common knowledge to everyone familiar with the TKD history. Han was a member of the first TKD demonstration team that toured the world trying to spread the art. If you look at Choi's massive tome on TKD (simply titled "Taekwondo"), you will find Han Cha Kyo is in it. He was also the subject of at least two Taekwon do Times articles which delved extensively into his background. Bottom line: Han Cha Kyo was exactly who he said he was, and anyone who doubts that does not know much about TKD's early history.

Your claim about TKD's supposed faults being rooted in the fact it is no longer "taught as a whole" is familiar. It is tha same claim aikido stylists make about their art when confronted by skeptics--e.g. "Can you REALLY throw a guy head over heels with a flick of the arm?" They assure doubters that what they have seen so far is not "real" aikido. In fact, they tell us, most aikido we see is not "real" aikido. Real aikido exists, however. Somewhere--presumably in some remote Japanese village or atop some distant mountain--someone is practicing "real" aikido. And if we ever saw that, we'd have no more doubts at all!

The truth is while TKD did cover more ground years ago before most schools became so sports oriented, it was never anywhere near a "complete" martial art. No martial art is complete. The trouble is, the area in which TKD is most complete--kicking--is probably the least important in terms of practical self defense. Don't get me wrong: strong kicking skills are a fine thing to have. However, they are nowhere near as critical to practical self defense as good boxing and--most critically--wrestling skills.

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#375014 - 12/28/07 02:50 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: harlan]
dicen Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 57
thats the major fault in tkd. IF you look at the "traditional" techniques they are very practical like any other striking art, except kicks were more prominent which I like cause your leg is stronger and longer than your fist. But somewhere down the line the organizations representing TKD decided to implement changes and all the basic one steps and applicable self defense techniques were replace with flashy techniques that would do more harm than good.

The fix would be to say "No Jumping!!!!" :-)

But with the teach of SD to white belts I agree totally with that. You don't have to teach them how to hurt a person, just show them ways to get away. A hard kick to the shin or groin would give a person especially a kid enough time to run away.

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#375015 - 12/28/07 03:04 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: fileboy2002]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Again, I was not taking a pot shot at you but I do hear that term quite often and I take nothing away from what you've said. However what he taught wasn't enough for you and why you left which speaks volumes. And yes, I know very little about TKD history and have said this before. History does nothing for me, what I can do to do does.

I did look at his WEBSITE and in 1965 in his experiences he does list that he was appointed Director of the ITF competition by General Choi. A pretty extensive list to say but not impressed with the "One of the first martial artists to knock over a bull" in 1955.



Quote:

The truth is while TKD did cover more ground years ago before most schools became so sports oriented, it was never anywhere near a "complete" martial art. No martial art is complete.




You are correct, no martial art is "complete" hence why I mentioned gaps as I don't believe that would be a fault. A fault would be as you said, went away from to become more sports orientated. Thankfully I do not go to a sports orientated TKD and though my school is more complete then most there will always be gaps.

I think anybody that does a martial art should question what they are doing. Is there more? Is what I'm doing enough? Many things we touch on and I would like to explore those more in depth and have been encouraged to do so by my Instructor and I will in the near future as I've gone else where a handful or more times. You also did this but on a grander scale which again was a positive.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#375016 - 12/28/07 03:12 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: harlan]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

I have heard this from my own teacher as well. Studied TKD, but had other MA under his belt before then and always had questions. An added complication to jumping ship from TKD can also be that as one becomes a teacher one feels obligated to stick around for the sake of the students. TKD is notorious for throwing teaching responsibilities on students early on...other arts insist on at least 10 years of training before teaching. Kinda makes it harder to make the decision to leave...to seek more. Especially with that whole 'loyalty' matra stuff that is promulgated in TKD dojos.




I don't disagree with this Harlan though I've never seen in within my own curriculum as I have been encouraged to go else where to train; as my own Instructor did and still does. However I don't think that this is predominately TKD and in fact martial arts as a whole. Karate was big for this many years ago and possibly still is in many cases. Temple Kung Fu was especially big into though they are no longer around.

As for teaching I believe that each student especially at black belt should get the opportunities to teach "some" classes. The Instructor can see who might be possibilities down the road and at least then when they cannot be there that a few classes can still be taught in his/her absent. The best way to make a good Instructor is to ensure at a young training time that they are given plenty of opportunities to do so, so they can be groomed however they should always be under some type of supervision and never on their own for any great lengths. I think that this goes for martial arts as a whole.

I've led a few classes but mostly mine have been grappling as I excel more at this then my TKD skills. Even working with a select few students at a time and especially when new students start and I work one on one with them, I can honestly say I learn more by teaching the skills as I have to show them and I have to think about how to show them. This gets ingrained and makes me think more when I am performing the techniques on my own. This makes a person become better and god do I need to get better.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#375017 - 12/28/07 03:21 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: tkd_high_green]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Laura, I should have also asked what your definition of Self Defense is? Does it include escapes from holds? Does it include joint manipulation? Does it include defense from weapons? Does it include fighting from your back? Does it include different fighting ranges (i.e. when to kick, when to punch, when to clinch, when to sprawl, when to ground fight)? Does it include using of other body parts as weapons (i.e. feet, hands, knees, elbows, forearms, fingers, shins, your heels, your head)? Does it include awareness?

We all may assume we mean the same thing when discussing Self Defense but that is not always true.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#375018 - 12/28/07 04:12 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Dereck]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Good Lord! I had completely forgotten about the whole business with the bull. Those kinds of stunts are indeed pretty goofy.

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#375019 - 12/28/07 04:16 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: tkd_high_green]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

It seems to me that the failing is not in the art, but the people who train in it, and possibly the order in which techniques are learned.
For instance, at my school, significant training in self defense doesn't really start until red and black belts for teenagers and adults. Laura




This si exactly where Ambassador Choi states that HooSinSul is to come into the traing, at 2nd gup red belt. However, through basics & the rest of the system, defending yourself does start on day one.

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#375020 - 12/28/07 04:24 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Not to belittle your training or dojang or Instructors fileboy, but I find too many people throw out names and then add "a student of General Choi" like that is suppose to mean anything.




The late GM Han Cha Kyo was most definately a direct stiudent of Ambassador Choi. He was a senior member of the Chung Do Kwan & was taught by Col. Nam tae Hi, one of the most senior Koream MAists alive today. Han Cha Kyo was created with creating Ul Ji Tul & was also around when the 1st 2 Korean patterns were designed, Hwa rang & Chung Mu. He passed away in the 90s, but left the founder in the 1970s. I can not speak to how he taught, but he was talented. I do not know - but many went abroad & starting fluff to retain students. IMHO not to many would have trained the way they did back when. He was also a part of the 1st TKD Demo team that displayed TKD abroad, Vietnam & taiwan (1959).

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