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#374981 - 12/22/07 11:06 AM Taekwondo's Faults
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Everyone has shared their opinions as to what they think about Taekwondo. So far no one has really pin pointed exactly what its faults are and how they can be corrected. Lets try targeting the faults and focusing on them one by one, rather than giving broad general statements: "Taekwondo is not real based self defense martial art."
We should specify what exactly the fault is and suggest a remedy for it.

Naming several things all at once makes for a messy debate. Sometimes I feel that those who dismiss WTF Taekwondo's method of sparring do not completely understand its value.

To be precise I am referring to the modernized kicks and the way they are delivered. This involves 2 components: kicking and footwork. But this can be discussed later, someone else may have more urging fault that they just have to discuss.
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#374982 - 12/22/07 11:46 AM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: TeK9]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
The problem is when people confuse the sport aspects and the self-defense aspects of a given system. TKD matches are done in a style or manner consistent with rules for maintaining that style; ie emphasizing kicks.

Nothing wrong with that. Nobody complains about baseball games not being played to basketball rules, right?

As long as the students are aware that they are learning/practicing the sporting end of the art, there is no problem.

True SD will result in most styles looking exactly the same.
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#374983 - 12/22/07 01:25 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: TeK9]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Your point about offering specific criticisms and specific remedies is 100% valid. Here is what I think the big problem is:

As I have said before, I did TKD for 25 years and have studied judo for 10. Judo has taught me that the key to MA effectiveness is regular practice against actively resiting opponents under realistic conditions. This is easy to do judo. Because judo is a sport whose goal is to immobilize an opponent, judoka can train full force relatively safely.

TKD practioners cannot do this. Why? Because TKD is a pretty @#$% brutal martial art, when you get down to it. Where judo (and other forms of wrestling) aim to pin opponents, TKD aims to stop them by inflicitng serious injury. I cannot think of many TKD techniques NOT designed to injure an opponent.

What this means is practicing TKD in the same way as judo--i.e. against actively resisiting opponents under realistic conditions--is very difficult. Ironically, TKD is a victim of its own potential effectiveness.

Two choices exist: either turn TKD into a Korean version of Muay Thai--which would seriously limit its mass appeal--or water it down to the point where it can be practiced safely. TKD has gone the latter route and paid the price.

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#374984 - 12/22/07 02:47 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: fileboy2002]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Your point about offering specific criticisms and specific remedies is 100% valid. Here is what I think the big problem is:

As I have said before, I did TKD for 25 years and have studied judo for 10. Judo has taught me that the key to MA effectiveness is regular practice against actively resiting opponents under realistic conditions. This is easy to do judo. Because judo is a sport whose goal is to immobilize an opponent, judoka can train full force relatively safely.

TKD practioners cannot do this. Why? Because TKD is a pretty @#$% brutal martial art, when you get down to it. Where judo (and other forms of wrestling) aim to pin opponents, TKD aims to stop them by inflicitng serious injury. I cannot think of many TKD techniques NOT designed to injure an opponent.

What this means is practicing TKD in the same way as judo--i.e. against actively resisiting opponents under realistic conditions--is very difficult. Ironically, TKD is a victim of its own potential effectiveness.

.




Are their TKD practioners competing in kykoshin or against mauy thia that you know of?
Have you ever competed against such martial artists?

Jude

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#374985 - 12/22/07 03:17 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: fileboy2002]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I myself do not focus on the sports aspect of TKD, I am not big on competition and I just don't care for it much. I however, am big on the sparring and the evolution of the kicking techniques that have come from this venue.

I have always seperated sparring for the sake of improving your fighting and self defense. And sparring to focus on competition(sport).

The differences is in the strategy you use, the chances you take, and the mind set your in.

Sparring for self preservation; the techniques I use are conducive to self defense and fighting. I use kicks with footwork in order to counter attack my opponent. Many of these techniques allow me to control distance either by closing in or evading my opponent.

I look to end the confrontation by landing solid blow(kicks) rather than setting a few half a$$ kicks to score a single point. Nor do I look to out run a clock.

Matt, I don't know if I would say "true" self defense. But basic self defense should look almost identical no matter what style you use. Which is why I beef with those who practice forms. I feel they use an outdated method of practice.

I would say "true" self defense doesn't involve any form of violence.

Fileboy2002
Its not difficult to practice TKD or any striking art using aliveness and resistance training. A way to do is is by Kick Boxing or using Muay Thai rules. Everyone sets their own personal degree of control. And just because your wearing protective give doesn't mean you diminish your practice any less. In fact I believe one of the benefits of practicing Olympic style sparring is that TKD students do not to hold back on their kicks. They are moving alive and using their full power behind their techniques. They have a better understanding of balance and control because of the protective gear. Some might argue this protective gear gives a false sense of security well this is where the different mind set comes in, while I practice with aliveness and a mind set of self preservation I understand that I cannot just stand there nor that my opponent cannot stand there in real life and absorb a full powered round kick to the ribs and expect to walk away unharmed, but for sparring purposes its okay, because it's practice.

To go back to what Matt said that "SD will result in most styles looking the same" I would say yes, if all striking arts practice kick boxing under MT rules they would all reap a great benefit. The problem is I think is that people love being style specific. Just like ITF TKD wants to be different from all other forms of karate, yet when you see an Chong Hon practitioner and a Karateka spar, they look exactly the same, because they spar under very similar rules.

This style specific Olympic style sparring is a marketing scheme by the Koreans to sell TKD as a unique indigenous art. But lets not even get into this debate. LOL

Fileboy2002 while you may have practiced TKD for over 2 decades I don't feel that your really stating faults in TKD but in striking arts in general. And I think your just demonstrating your preference for Judo and other grappling arts due to their method of sparring/randori.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#374986 - 12/22/07 03:27 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: jude33]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Are their TKD practioners competing in kykoshin or against mauy thia that you know of?
Have you ever competed against such martial artists?




There are a handful of TKD fighters in K-1, the most famous being Serkan Yilmaz:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serkan_Yilmaz

On a more local level, I know of a number of schools who choose to compete against other local kickboxing and muay thai clubs or in open tournaments. Many ITF TKD champions have chosen to compete in other arenas, Katya Solovey for example competes in WAKO events as does Tomaz Barada.

Events like WAKO and K-1 are the most likely places to see TKD fighters competing, afterall you don't see MT or Kyukoshin fighters competing in TKD tournaments, so why would you expect to see the reverse?

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#374987 - 12/22/07 03:35 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: TeK9]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Its not difficult to practice TKD or any striking art using aliveness and resistance training. A way to do is is by Kick Boxing or using Muay Thai rules. Everyone sets their own personal degree of control. And just because your wearing protective give doesn't mean you diminish your practice any less. In fact I believe one of the benefits of practicing Olympic style sparring is that TKD students do not to hold back on their kicks. They are moving alive and using their full power behind their techniques. They have a better understanding of balance and control because of the protective gear. Some might argue this protective gear gives a false sense of security well this is where the different mind set comes in, while I practice with aliveness and a mind set of self preservation I understand that I cannot just stand there nor that my opponent cannot stand there in real life and absorb a full powered round kick to the ribs and expect to walk away unharmed, but for sparring purposes its okay, because it's practice.




Tek, I think you have misunderstood the point fileboy is trying to make. The main difference between grappling training and striking training is not whether or not you can LAND a technique, it is the certainty of outcome. When you pull off a strangle technique in a grapplin match, there is no doubt that if you finish the strangle you will KO your opponent. However, even if you can land a kick in sparring, because you can't go 100%, you have no way of knowing whether or not that kick will have the desired effect. You can have a pretty good idea from hitting pads, but there is a much lower degree of certainty.

Hope that's clear

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#374988 - 12/22/07 04:05 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
In the end if the faults were corrected the sparring would look like an MMA/NHB spar or fight because thats the next best representation to what happens in real a fight.And if your assaulted your in a fight.So the middle of an assault is a fight.
That would not go down well and me saying that wont on this forum.

Then,ironicaly, you would be in a better position to use the more lethal techniques to lethal parts of the body.
So I guesse they would have to be done in some kind of realistic pad drills.

Like Matt said,it all looks the same in the end.
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#374989 - 12/22/07 05:05 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: matxtx]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Supremor,

Thanks for clearing that up mate, but even in judo or grappling there is no certainty that you can apply a submission. I say this not to say that a strangle hold doesn't result in a opponent passing out; but that with any kind of sparring you are eliminating you most dangerous strikes. This is the reason why many of the Judo techniques work in randori because if the removal of the strikes.

Resulting in a judoka being a much better thrower than a karateka.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#374990 - 12/22/07 06:08 PM Re: Taekwondo's Faults [Re: TeK9]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Tek9 makes a good point here: the absence of strikes in judo is the most unrealistic aspect of randori. In my opinion, however, it is a relatively minor problem. It is much easier for wrestlers to turn any fight into a wrselting match than it is for strikers to prevent it from becomong one.

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