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#374713 - 09/16/08 04:24 AM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: Taison]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
A letter from Rodney King re CM Boxing's guard

A good read methinks. Invoked some ideas into my thick skull.

I wonder what I can do to get some info from these guys... wait.. I got JKogas!

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#374714 - 09/16/08 09:37 PM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Somebody callin' my name?

The CM structure is great. From what I've found, its also natural and quite easy to pick up. It works as an easy bridge into the clinch. Too many positives to mention.

Did you have specific questions?

-John

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#374715 - 09/16/08 11:50 PM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Wee!!!

He's here!

Yes yes, got lots of them questions~

First things first then.

The guard, well seeing as how it's higher than a normal boxing guard and it's great for jab defenses. However I find it's a lot harder to do slips, bobs and weave. All I've got left is to duck.

So, using the guard, is it possible to just ignore the whole traditional 'boxing defense'? I've found that after a few jab hits on my elbow, they're not so jab happy anymore. Or do you guys at your gym still practice bob, slip and weave?

I'm having problem doing some of my favorite hits like shovel hooks or uppercuts. It seems I have to drop one of my hands out of the guard, which totally exposes my face. How do I work around this?

What are the kick defenses in CM? For me, it seems when I'm in the guard, I just seem to miss those kicks by milli-seconds. I'm having a rough time trying to catch weist-height kicks since I have to drop my arms. Is it just better to move in and deliver a 1,2,3 combo?

More more, just can't think of any right now.

Trust me, there'll be more!

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#374716 - 09/17/08 01:06 PM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: Taison]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Having my waist squared against the opponent, how am I supposed to deliver a kick???

I need more info on effective clinching in CM.

Just treat me like a noob and give me full info please!

I'm trying to put a 60% emphasis on fists, and 20-30% emphasis on elbows. How do I incorporate the elbows into CM? What about headbutts?

Any suggestions on how to enter a clinch using CM's form?

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

Top
#374717 - 09/17/08 08:35 PM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


The guard, well seeing as how it's higher than a normal boxing guard and it's great for jab defenses. However I find it's a lot harder to do slips, bobs and weave. All I've got left is to duck.

So, using the guard, is it possible to just ignore the whole traditional 'boxing defense'? I've found that after a few jab hits on my elbow, they're not so jab happy anymore. Or do you guys at your gym still practice bob, slip and weave?





Great question(s). First off, it should be noted that the cm structure is both a body and arm posture. This is taught to beginners as a way of getting them to speed quickly. The reason is because the more standard boxing guard often takes a lot longer to learn, as it can take a good while to develop the attributes needed to play that game. In the mean time, you're taking punishment (as it takes time to develop those attributes). This was one of the reasons why the cm structure was created.

To answer your question, yes slipping, bobbing and weaving are still done. They're just modified somewhat. But the thing is, just because you are embracing the cm approach doesn't mean that you have to eliminate a more traditional boxing method. In fact, once most cm guys have developed their skill, they integrate most of the traditional boxing approach into the mix and are doing BOTH. So it does not mean that you have to stop what you're doing.

In terms of the elbow destructions, these are just bonuses. Keep that in mind. Sure, it certainly hurts when you jam your knuckles onto the point of someones elbow. I've felt it through 16oz gloves, but they aren't really a part of the basic structure. Saying this to those who may not have a highly developed game, bringing your arms/elbows up TOO high is a calculated risk. Doing so exposes you by taking your lines of defense (totakedowns) away.



Quote:


I'm having problem doing some of my favorite hits like shovel hooks or uppercuts. It seems I have to drop one of my hands out of the guard, which totally exposes my face. How do I work around this?





For me this is easily rectified by creating an angle outside one of your opponent's arms (outside gate?). Rodney King has been one of the biggest proponents of the shovel hook so it's definitely part of the system. In fact, all punches (and defenses) are. Nothing has been excluded. It isn't that your arms always have to remain high by the way. Use your timing and pick your spots. Its possible that if one already has boxing experiences and adopts a CM structure, they may assume that you are taught to always maintain the cm posture. Not so. You're free to switch back and forth as you see fit. I typically switch guards a lot depending on the experience/skill of my opponent and how "busy" his offense is. It also depends on the distance that you're engaging him in. If I'm outside of reach, I keep my guard down a little more. As I move inside, it tightens up as does that of most boxers. The CM just has beginners staying tight no matter the range until they become more comfortable, I think that's fair to say.

But back to the shovel hook/uppercut. If you slip outside and create that angle, it won't matter that your face is exposed because your opponent will be unable to hit you. It's that and timing. I'll throw the liver shot by standing in front of my opponent and getting something in his face, putting him on the defensive. Then I'll throw the liver shot as one of the last punches in a combo.

The uppercut it thrown as per usual. It's not delivered in any other way than is typical. You just drop one arm as you keep the other high. You're not throwing these punches any different than you would in traditional boxing. That is pretty important to say here.


Quote:


What are the kick defenses in CM? For me, it seems when I'm in the guard, I just seem to miss those kicks by milli-seconds. I'm having a rough time trying to catch weist-height kicks since I have to drop my arms. Is it just better to move in and deliver a 1,2,3 combo?





Everyone will approach this differently. For me, I move in and keep pressure on a kicker by throwing the combos. Otherwise, you'd adopt the traditional kick defenses (particularly those ofmuay Thai). Notice that the Thai guard is also a higher guard. Thus, use distance and ring generalship accordingly. You know that if you're facing a kicker, either stay well outside or well inside, etc..


Quote:

Having my waist squared against the opponent, how am I supposed to deliver a kick???





Use angular footwork. Step off and throw your kicks at these angles and you should have no problem. Again, it doesn't mean that you ALWAYS have to stay square. If you have skill, use it. The CM structure is taught to folks without such skill. This assumes that they won't be kicking. Personally speaking, I never kick because I'm either looking to throw combos or clinch. Otherwise, drop your arms and align your hips as need be. Just accept the consequences also for having done so.


Quote:


I need more info on effective clinching in CM. Just treat me like a noob and give me full info please!





Sounds like you need a seminar, lol! I'd get Rodney's DVDs in all honesty. That would help a great deal. In terms of clinching, you're free to use whatever you like. If you like getting into the traditionalplumm clinch, by all means do so. For me, it's all about the under-hooks or the dirty boxing clinch. That's where my game is at currently. I don't see it changing any either. I assume you have some clinching experience in either regard. It's all about entering safely and playing your game once in.


Quote:


I'm trying to put a 60% emphasis on fists, and 20-30% emphasis on elbows. How do I incorporate the elbows into CM? What about headbutts?





Elbows are thrown as usual. If you have Thai boxing experience, you already know everything you need to know. Nothing changes. I have to restate that not much changes just because you're using a higher, tighter guard. This isn't all that unusual as is taught in a lot ofamateur boxing. Keep your hands UP is often heard in those gyms. This is no different in the CM structure. Watch Rampage Jackson sometime. His high cover is virtually identical to the CM structure! Watch his fights and see how he plays the game. That's ultimately going to teach you more than I can by typing words. You really need to SEE this material performed to gain a deeper understanding.


Quote:

Any suggestions on how to enter a clinch using CM's form?





Sure, there are lots of ways to enter. One way is to keep the structure and simply jam right in, timing the entry as your opponent is flurrying. The trick here is the close distance to eliminate straight line punching. As your opponent throws the hook lines, his center opens. Move straight in and clinch.

Personally, I like using the outside deflection to gain the neck tie. Hard to describe if you don't already know what I'm talking about. It's taught in Thai boxing to gain theplumm . Essentially you "reach" for the neck from outside by turning almost sideways (you're reaching with ONE arm, obviously). Reach, clinch, then come in with your opposite arm. I tend to look for the underhook with my opposite arm.

Check out Youtube. Here's one from Jens Pulver that works easily from within the CM structure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxh4a2r0sBw

Also, do a general seach for Crazy Monkey boxing within youtube and see what comes back. From what I recall, there was a lot of stuff. You may find what you're looking for there.

Again I think it's important that everyone realize that CM boxing isn't all that different from traditional boxing (aside from squaring up). However, we have to remember that what we're dong is applying boxing within the no rules or limited rules format. This forces us to have to change. You can't blade up as you would in boxing with the narrower stance as that will just give away a single leg, etc. You couldn't sprawl effectively from that position.

Anyway, I'm quite sure that I may not have answered your questions fully. Feel free to fire away with more. Thats what this place is for (aside from the ads, which are the primary reason this site exists).


-John

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#374718 - 09/17/08 11:21 PM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Thanks John,

I was thinking of getting one of Rodney King's DVD, I think it was called USA Clinch or something.

Well basically, all I got to work from now is Jen Pulver's dirty boxing.

I'm having a great time with the CM clinch. Going into the plum, they think I'm going to throw knees, so they naturally hunch a bit, that's when I use one hand to push them down and start to deliver strikes with my other hand. Sometimes I switch hand and move to the other side to dumbfound them. Magic!

Also another trick I've got from Jens Pulver, was to alway bump with either my shoulder or my elbow if my opponent leans on it. The shoulder just irritates them when they're trying to lean on me, but when I do it with the inside of my elbow (or forearm), sometimes I can create openings for a shot with my other hand. Magic!

My main problem is with the necktie underhook clinch. I'm totally worthless at this. When I did judo I spent most of the time in the necktie overhook (i.e. grabbing the elbow). I'm so not used to grabbing the lats and pulling them towards me. I'm not really sure what type of takedowns I'm able to do from here.

Concerning the guard, It felt a bit awkward at first but it's becoming more of a natural right now. Having a great time intercepting sprawls now, it feels like all I need to do now is put my hands down and just push my legs out. Before when I used the MT guard, I had to bend down, put my hands on his shoulders, move my legs back et al. Took my a long time to get the sprawl in, was mainly successful if I anticipated the takedown. Now it's more like "Here he comes", sprawl. Done.

Rampage Jackson? He's really good at those blocks without needing to slip, bob and weave. He's also a CM practitioner? Cool.


Now here's more of a 'teaching' question. If I was to teach this material, would it be better to use standard boxing gloves or the MMA gloves? I'm was thinking of making it more of a self-defense/MMA emphasized training, but seeing as basics needs to be done right, maybe I would need bigger gloves. What you think?

How did you get the training in CM? I knew one trained teacher, Adam Kayoom, when he was here in Thailand teaching BJJ at Bangkok Fight Club, but I never knew he was a certified CM teacher. Fack, I missed him. Had I known he was this good, I'd call him up. Seems he's in Malaysia now, allah damn it.

Anyways, was thinking of getting 1 or 2 dvd's and work on that.

Any other material you recommend?

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#374719 - 09/27/08 04:53 PM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Thanks John,

I was thinking of getting one of Rodney King's DVD, I think it was called USA Clinch or something.)





If I were you, I would purchase two from him. One would be “Sparring 101” and the second is called (I believe) the “Fight Compass”. IMO, that’s all you need.



Quote:

Well basically, all I got to work from now is Jen Pulver's dirty boxing.




That’s a good place to start though.


Quote:

My main problem is with the necktie underhook clinch. I'm totally worthless at this. When I did judo I spent most of the time in the necktie overhook (i.e. grabbing the elbow). I'm so not used to grabbing the lats and pulling them towards me. I'm not really sure what type of takedowns I'm able to do from here.





The underhook requires time, but once you have it down and can wrestle into it, you talk about MAGIC? The underhook is [censored] magic. Like I said though, it takes time. You have to be able to obtain the underhook, then control the position, then work your attacks. Personally, I don’t look to strike much from the underhook with my hands, so its usually just knees. I typically work for takedowns as soon as I get the underhook. If you don’t, the position will eventually break down and you’ll have to start all over again.

Some of the better takedowns to learn first from the underhook might be; the near ankle pick, the far ankle/knee pick, duck-under, single leg, double leg and the high crotch. You can also work footsweeps from there. Those require timing but are worth practicing.



Quote:

Concerning the guard, It felt a bit awkward at first but it's becoming more of a natural right now. Having a great time intercepting sprawls now, it feels like all I need to do now is put my hands down and just push my legs out.





As with anything, it takes time to pick up the subtle nuances and things. Once you get that timing down and a feel for what you’re trying to accomplish, the CM structure is a great tool.



Quote:

Rampage Jackson? He's really good at those blocks without needing to slip, bob and weave. He's also a CM practitioner? Cool.





I don’t know if Rampage calls what he does the “crazy monkey” or not. But the technique I’ve seen him do is virtually identical to what we’re doing.


Quote:

Now here's more of a 'teaching' question. If I was to teach this material, would it be better to use standard boxing gloves or the MMA gloves? I'm was thinking of making it more of a self-defense/MMA emphasized training, but seeing as basics needs to be done right, maybe I would need bigger gloves. What you think?




I think you need to do this with big gloves, small gloves and no gloves. All three are important. When I say, “no gloves”, make sure that your partner is wearing at least small gloves if you are bare handed. You’re drilling this way to develop defense and sensitivity. I wouldn’t recommend sparring bare handed, but to each his own. Just drill using all three scenarios.


Quote:

How did you get the training in CM?




I trained with Adam Singer back in 2002 at his gym. He showed me what the core CM structure was. I also had dvd’s to supplement that and went back home and started training it with my partners and students. Later I trained with Rodney himself in Athens Ga, in October of 2003. Recently I trained with one of his master coaches, Jerry Wetzel in Bristol Tennessee. Jerry covered the entire basic CM structure there. Rodney graciously allowed me into the trainers group.


Quote:


I knew one trained teacher, Adam Kayoom, when he was here in Thailand teaching BJJ at Bangkok Fight Club, but I never knew he was a certified CM teacher.




Adam is apparently still teaching. A great talent from what I understand.


Quote:

Anyways, was thinking of getting 1 or 2 dvd's and work on that.

Any other material you recommend?




Get “Sparring 101” and the “Fight Compass”. That should be more than enough to keep you busy for a while. Otherwise, learn everything you can about the clinch. Devote much practice time to the underhook, but don’t neglect the overhook either. If you can get your hands on any Erik Paulson material, do so. You’ll be glad you did.


-John

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#374720 - 09/28/08 10:16 AM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: JKogas]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I hope no one minds me sticking my oar in.
Theres no link but it seems a similar approach to the 'Morris method'.Might be worth checking out.I dont know much on CM but concerning a square stance and the gaurd and how kicking can be incorporated into it 'Morris Method' explains it well.
The sessions Iv been in we keep shoulders high to make it hard for them to reach out and neck clinch,not a full turtle neck but nearly there so its easier to do one and the higher gaurd makes it easier to just reach out and take them or tie up,amongst other things.Or even get head controll and get on them to stop them coming in.
Also it helps covering as all you have to do is angle off correctly and the shoulder helps with protection.Though The shoulders are not up so high its realy uncomfy or your like a stiff thing,lol, and immobile.

There are even free clips too on some aspects!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZWxOGSTkpM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmOrBa2ie58
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKGhhonr_fY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRNwk16u8gE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcMDVlFmSE8

Its hard to come by training like this in England.
Do you know any CM people in central England John?
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#374721 - 09/28/08 10:36 AM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Its hard to come by training like this in England.
Do you know any CM people in central England John?




There ARE some folks there mate. Let me look around and I'll come back with some links.


-John

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#374722 - 09/28/08 11:37 AM Re: Taison's Journey [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
This 'Morris Method' seems nice..

Let me have a look at it, and I'll come back to it.

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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