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#374389 - 12/17/07 02:09 PM spinning hands in malaysia (video)...
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
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#374390 - 12/17/07 10:40 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
WC_Lun Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 30
Loc: Kansas City MO
hmm, looks like a cross between Tai Chi push hands and Wing Chun chi sao not done on the centerline.

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#374391 - 12/19/07 01:07 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: WC_Lun]
ashe_higgs Offline
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yeah, kinda.

we try and control the mass, which lies on the centerline, but you don't need to be on the centerline to control the mass.
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#374392 - 12/19/07 03:40 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
EFRAIN Offline
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Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
hey guys thats just called push hands in Bagua Zhang. Thats the way you push hand in bagua zhang including moving and using footwork, at least in the system I know of Bagua Zhang. Yin style BGZ.


Bow out with respect from a Bagua Zhang, TKD Martialist

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#374393 - 12/19/07 04:00 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: EFRAIN]
ashe_higgs Offline
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no, bagua doesn't call it push hands (tui shou) bagua uses rou shou (rolling hands), but spinning hands from ILC is a little bit different than both, but shares a lot in common.
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#374394 - 12/19/07 08:12 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
MattJ Offline
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Interesting, Ashe. Does that type of practice typically go to clinch range? You don't normally see that in Chi Sao or push hands, as far as I know.
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#374395 - 12/19/07 01:47 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: MattJ]
ashe_higgs Offline
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oh yes, definitely. we divide the practice into 1st section, 2nd section and 3rd section.

1st section is the wrist, 2nd section is the elbow and 3rd section is the shoulder or body (i.e. cinch range).

we also recognize each section at different ranges (long medium and close), i.e. 1st section can be at close range, 2nd section could be trained at long range, etc.

the spinning hand has to be trained at all the sections and all the rages at each section.
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#374396 - 12/19/07 07:53 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
WC_Lun Offline
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Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 30
Loc: Kansas City MO
We have the same concepts in Wing Chun Chi Sao.

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#374397 - 12/24/07 10:07 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
EFRAIN Offline
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Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
ashe_higgs

"no, bagua doesn't call it push hands (tui shou) bagua uses rou shou (rolling hands), but spinning hands from ILC is a little bit different than both, but shares a lot in common."


lol OK What is the difference?"rolling hands" and "push hands" When you push your doing both or eventually it will get to that. In bagua you do both not just rolling hands persay. ONE should never categorized it as this or that. your still pushing in different ways and when you do such drills while practicing or fighting it should be basically open. meaning dont restrict yourself to certain drills or so called moves/techniques. Bagua is all about change.

Bow out with respect from a TKD/Bagua Martialist


Edited by EFRAIN (12/24/07 10:09 PM)

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#374398 - 12/24/07 10:17 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: EFRAIN]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Posts: 593
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Quote:

your still pushing in different ways and when you do such drills while practicing or fighting it should be basically open.




that's true, you wanna stay freestyle to keep it real, but most schools have regimented practices that are quite distinct.

even the difference between chen and yang tui shou can be pretty dramatic.
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#374399 - 12/26/07 12:45 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
why not just call it sticky hands practice?
and no WC is not what I practice

the concept of sticking and the bridge is common to many Chinese MA.
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#374400 - 12/26/07 01:04 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: IExcalibui2]
EFRAIN Offline
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Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
Hey guys. Why don't we just get together and try out our push hands/spinning hands techniques and exchange useful knowledge. Well, this goes to the guys around the nyc tristates are or anybody willing to come around and meet somewhere. lol JUST FOR THOUGHT.

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST

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#374401 - 12/26/07 02:20 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: IExcalibui2]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
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Quote:

why not just call it sticky hands practice?





what's in the video is sort of a blend of sticky hand and spinning hand.

here's a "pure" spinning hands clip;

true spinning

in ILC spinning hands and sticky hands are two separate training modalities.
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#374402 - 12/26/07 02:52 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
These guys are toooo hard man.. First of all their posture is terrible, body not aligned, back not straight and they are not controling the elbows. In push hand/spinning hands not matter what you do you just gotta stick to the person, always stay connected and flow. When pushing hands neither opponent is suppose to feel each others energy. These 2 guys seem really tense.

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST

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#374403 - 12/26/07 03:11 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: EFRAIN]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
Also Do you guys use footwork? I didnt see any footwork at all and was wondering if it is used where you train. by the way what style of bagua do you do?

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST

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#374404 - 12/26/07 03:14 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: EFRAIN]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Maybe the guys in the video are doing something different than what you are accustomed to?
Just because they are doing something different doesn't mean that it is wrong or that it is a bad training method.

Quote:

First of all their posture is terrible, body not aligned, back not straight and they are not controling the elbows.



I thought that their posture was fine. The fellow in the white shirt has a slight hunch in the back, but the fellow in the black shirt has his alignments together. It is a bit difficult to see this, but you can see how he has his base underneath him giving him a stable root.
What is it that you see that you think is 'out of alignment'?
The back does not have to be straight just so long as it is the correct structural alignment with the base. If you look at 'blacks' spine it is straight, it is just not perpendicular to the ground.

The more of these videos of people demonstrating their push hands, etc. the more you realize that the only way to really understand what someone is doing and how they actually feel is to actually touch hands with that person.
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#374405 - 12/26/07 03:22 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: Fisherman]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
I do agree with you the gentlemen in the black does have a good posture. I looked at the video more and analyzed it and yes you are correct.

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST

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#374406 - 12/26/07 03:25 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: EFRAIN]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
What kind of bagua do you do EFRAIN?
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#374407 - 12/26/07 07:33 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: Fisherman]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
I do YIN style BAGUA ZHANG

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#374408 - 12/26/07 11:43 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: EFRAIN]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
spinning or not, they are still sticking...thus sticky hands
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#374409 - 12/28/07 01:07 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: IExcalibui2]
ashe_higgs Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
just a quick follow up...

i'm glad you didn't realize it was me in the clip. i prefer honest critisism to false praise any day of the week.

i've never trained yin style BGZ, but yin style seems to use more of a straight spine. so from the point of view of your training you would be correct to say that we're using bad posture.

however the flexed spine is common in many styles of CMA. tongbei calls it "dragon back", we call it "expanding the yang". many southern styles, like southern mantis and lung ying, use similar posture as well as some of the xingyi animals (bear and monkey come to mind).

i'm leaning a bit to far forward, but i think i'm just compensating for the height difference between me and my partner.

as far as controlling the elbows... you're not supposed to control anything during spinning hands training. you have to understand the purpose of the training, which is to understand the changing point of contact, learn to manifest fullness at the point and build power. sticky hand is for control.

we are using a lot of force, so yes it's tense, but in a dense, springy kind of way, not in a stiff way. as i said, one of the benefits of this practice is to build power.

as far as
Quote:

"When pushing hands neither opponent is suppose to feel each others energy."




again, you misunderstand the nature of spinning hands. as i said part of the purpose of spinning is to understand the changing point of contact and what force is present there. by it's very nature this training is designed to feel the force very clearly, in fact we say that during spinning hands you want to "meet the force", to learn how to "catch the tip of the spear". again, sticky hand is the place for practicing other things like neutralizing, off balancing, etc.

spinning hands, like sticky hand is divided into stationary and moving step spinning.

here's a clip of my Sifu and his cousin playing some moving step spinning hand.
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#374410 - 12/30/07 11:59 AM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
EFRAIN Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
LOL Maybe I didn't explained myself correctly in my other post/replay about the video and what you meant. I agree and understand why you guys are doing it that way in spinning hands. Yes, ive done that to generate more power and learn how to stick to your opponent, learn how to flow and control. I also do understand why the slight slouching of the back is also done, I have many friends that do Chen style bagua/DRAGON i think it is and they do that alot.

Again apologies for the misunderstanding.

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BGZ MARTIALIST

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#374411 - 12/30/07 01:11 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ashe_higgs]
ShuiHu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 7
This is sometimes refered to as Water hands. In guondong some lines of Wing Chun Practice it still today. Some of the Hong kong schools ie...Jiu Wan also retain this as Jiu Wan first learned in Foshan. It is believed by some to have originated from Fujian White crane not Tai Chi chaun though it appears similar.

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#374412 - 12/30/07 01:14 PM Re: spinning hands in malaysia (video)... [Re: ShuiHu]
ShuiHu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 7
Oh BTW, folks in the UK can see this practiced in Joseph Cheng's wing chun....and as to Malaysia and Kuala Lampur many Yong Chun (wing chun) white crane practitioners settled there and have some very similar practices ;-)

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