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#373986 - 12/13/07 06:36 AM Disruptive students
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Something I haven't experienced in a long time occurred last night. I had a student that trains in both our dojo and another one that simply wouldn't do the technique being taught. In every instance, he might do the technique once or twice, and then switched off and started doing something he trained at the other school.

Make no mistake, I'm all for training in other places and learning what they have to offer... but I'm also about doing what the teacher on the floor at the time is doing, and getting that right first. This guy never got what was going on, so he "taught over" what I was teaching.

The problem is that he thinks he's proficient, simply because he's strong and can resist a bit in Aikido. It's a "macho" thing with him, rather than cooperative , and I have no problem flattening him out when necessary, it just takes an adjustment to what he's doing... but it's really disruptive to other students.

On one technique, he went completely away from the movement I was teaching, so I let them go, while the other students of the class were using the movement and developed 4 or 5 variations of the movement into their "bag of tricks". The student he was training with asked me after class... "Why didn't you come over and show us those changes"... to which I replied..."because you never did what I was teaching. You have to do the basic movement to do a variation of it, and you guys were busy doing something else". He apologized, and I told him that "if you're training with XXX, do the technique taught... not his variations of it If he wants to teach the class, I'll stay home and you can learn what little he knows."

We've had the guy called up to teach before, and he fumbles and mumbles his way through anything... but he's a "resident expert" on "doing it a different way" once we teach a movement. Never does it the way it's shown, and can't perform what we show when tested on it...

Suggestion to the general population... train the technique being taught. You'll learn more, be more proficient, and actually build some skills. Regurgitating something you saw somewhere else doesn't make you "better", only out of step with what's going on... and disruptive to other people's training. I was in the dojo for three hours last night warming up and training... there were plenty of opportunities to "show what you know" before and after class. Class time belongs to the teachers.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#373987 - 12/13/07 03:03 PM Re: Disruptive students [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

We have had ~his family~ visit our classes many times Uncles, cousins, brothers (younger, male 99% of the time) who were usually large, and whom in the generic I classify as "Neanderthal" in nature. "...ME STRONG, PROVE YOU..." They all seem to confuse learning with "proving" their assorted point. It is unfortunate and childish.

Jeff

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#373988 - 12/13/07 05:50 PM Re: Disruptive students [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
What's really upsetting is that both our dojo and the other dojo across town have made allowances for this guy to allow him to train, and I certainly hope he shows better manners when he's there than he does in our place. I'm the first guy in line to let people learn all they can, but the method of doing it isn't to ignore what the teacher that's on the floor is teaching and "do your own thing".

The issue arose when a white belt he was working with asked me why I hadn't shown them the variations on the movement. I told him to "do what's being taught by the teachers, not by your partners. If they want to teach the class, they need to earn it".

This is just plain old "rude behavior", and they guy is a black belt in a different art, so he should know better. It's really irritating to accommodate someone like that, and then have them create a disturbance. In any case, it's bad form, and shows what martial arts is degenerating into.

A lot of my old teachers would have shown him the door, and told him not to come back. Unfortunately, he's someone else's student normally, or I would have read him the riot act myself. I can promise you that it won't happen again without him getting embarressed in front of the whole school.

If his skills were as great as his ego, he'd be invincible... unfortunately... this is how he teaches.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#373989 - 12/14/07 07:52 AM Re: Disruptive students [Re: wristtwister]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Having been a new student in a different style myself, I can definitely say that such behaviour indicates a rejection of the new martial art. People with this kind of attitude never progress in a new martial art. Students should leave their previous MA experience at the door when they are students at another Dojo.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/14/07 07:53 AM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#373990 - 12/14/07 10:51 AM Re: Disruptive students [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Wrist

Sadly I'm not kidding, I watched a judo guy punch a "problem" student dead in the face once....hard enough to bloody his nose.....when he got around to asking "why?" the judo guy told him "Hey, if YOUR not going to do the technique right why should I???" While the guy was standing their with his mouth hanging open he added "I take boxing lessons and I want to work on my punching skills vs a grappler."

I have also seen people simply refuse to train with folks like that....they are paying good money to be taught the art they are there to learn....not serve as a "free" practice partner for somebody that wants to work on other skills from other classes.

They considered it stealing and said as much to him.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#373991 - 12/14/07 01:24 PM Re: Disruptive students [Re: wristtwister]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
I will never understand why someone would attend a martial arts school (and pay money) when he doesn't want to learn what is being taught there. Not only is it disrespectful, it's foolish. It's like paying $8 to see a movie and bringing a book to read.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#373992 - 12/15/07 06:30 AM Re: Disruptive students [Re: cxt]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
cxt,
you know, I pay my doctor to "give me a physical", and supposedly to "follow his advice" in my health situations... so why wouldn't I follow my sensei's advice in matters of martial arts? I'm 63 years old and have been doing MA over half my life, but I still train whatever the teacher in the class is doing. I may even do it better than he does, but I still follow instructions.

For the most part, students do what they're told, but every once in a while, you run across one of these mavericks that just won't "get with the program"... and my experience is that they stay at whatever level they are forever... because they think they've figured it out, and never add to their repetoire.

Even one of our white belts figured out something was wrong, when I showed the other students "variations" on the techniques I taught, and they never got instruction beyond the "basic". One of my sayings is "there's a million ways to skin a cat, but not many ways that the cat likes it"... and dealing with disruptive students by ignoring them is apparent to the other students.

If my doctor tells me my cholesterol is high, I don't go home and start taking blood pressure medicine... I follow his advice and treat the cholesterol problem. If your sensei tells you that XXX is the problem, why would you go work on YYY? It simply doesn't make sense.

There are a lot of different ways to be disrespectful to someone, and this is one of the major problems with MA students today. "It's paid instruction, so I'll do what I want"... try telling your doctor that...

Some people's children... at whatever age...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#373993 - 12/15/07 08:46 AM Re: Disruptive students [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
FYO I do my damndest to copy what the sensei is demonstrating.

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#373994 - 12/15/07 09:04 AM Re: Disruptive students [Re: wristtwister]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Excuse me...I've been reading this thread with interest...and profess...that I don't understand how the BB in another art was being 'disruptive'? From your description, you basically let the students do paired work...and left the 'teaching' of the 'outsider' to a white belt?



Quote:

Something I haven't experienced in a long time occurred last night. I had a student that trains in both our dojo and another one that simply wouldn't do the technique being taught. In every instance, he might do the technique once or twice, and then switched off and started doing something he trained at the other school.

Make no mistake, I'm all for training in other places and learning what they have to offer... but I'm also about doing what the teacher on the floor at the time is doing, and getting that right first. This guy never got what was going on, so he "taught over" what I was teaching.

The problem is that he thinks he's proficient, simply because he's strong and can resist a bit in Aikido. It's a "macho" thing with him, rather than cooperative , and I have no problem flattening him out when necessary, it just takes an adjustment to what he's doing... but it's really disruptive to other students.

On one technique, he went completely away from the movement I was teaching, so I let them go, while the other students of the class were using the movement and developed 4 or 5 variations of the movement into their "bag of tricks". The student he was training with asked me after class... "Why didn't you come over and show us those changes"... to which I replied..."because you never did what I was teaching. You have to do the basic movement to do a variation of it, and you guys were busy doing something else". He apologized, and I told him that "if you're training with XXX, do the technique taught... not his variations of it If he wants to teach the class, I'll stay home and you can learn what little he knows."

We've had the guy called up to teach before, and he fumbles and mumbles his way through anything... but he's a "resident expert" on "doing it a different way" once we teach a movement. Never does it the way it's shown, and can't perform what we show when tested on it...

Suggestion to the general population... train the technique being taught. You'll learn more, be more proficient, and actually build some skills. Regurgitating something you saw somewhere else doesn't make you "better", only out of step with what's going on... and disruptive to other people's training. I was in the dojo for three hours last night warming up and training... there were plenty of opportunities to "show what you know" before and after class. Class time belongs to the teachers.





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#373995 - 12/15/07 08:34 PM Re: Disruptive students [Re: harlan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Harlan,
sorry if I was vague, but we do Hombu-style Aikido in our dojo, and the school across town does a variant of that based on their teacher's style. It's like a TKD black belt coming to a Jujutsu or Aikido class and practicing the other style of Aikido with his "pair" partner.

The guy is a black belt in a variant art of Aikido, studies at another school as well, and then shows up and practices his "other stuff" when we're having paired practice... yes, it's disruptive. If I'm teaching Ikkyo, he's trying sayo-undo or nikkyo, rather than the technique I'm teaching.

The white belt he paired up with didn't know enough to do what we showed him, rather than trying what his partner was trying and showing him, so (again)... yes, that's disruptive.

Think of trying to teach someone a kata, like Tekki... and everyone in the room is practicing Tekki except one guy, who's practicing a TKD form, and instructing his training pair partner in the TKD form rather than Tekki. It's a little hard to show anyone the bunkai for Tekki, if they're practicing a different kata and doing different movements than what you're teaching.

In class, it's "follow the leader"... after class, it's practice what you want... no harm, no foul. In class, it's just outright disrespectful. We tell students when it's "the technique of your choice". In short, it's not their decision to make...

MA classes are a "benevolent dictatorship" with the teacher in charge, and the class structure based of levels of understanding through belt ranking. I expect brown belts to know more than yellow belts, etc. and expect anybody that's a black belt in any other martial art to have the courtesy to understand that system. If he doesn't, he shouldn't be in the class. (NOT MY CALL), in this case. I "inherited" him, and am only teaching as an assistant and co-teacher right now.

If he was "my student", I'd explain the rules to him one time and he'd be gone on his next offense. I got a PM from the other school's teacher, and they aren't allowing him back, so it makes me wonder if he's doing the same thing there... apparently so.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#373996 - 12/15/07 08:36 PM Re: Disruptive students [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
??? Not directed at you, Iaibear... this is a "local" matter...

I totally understand and sympathize with your delimma.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#373997 - 12/17/07 01:08 PM Re: Disruptive students [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Wrist

"Some peoples children....at whatever age."

Really good way to put it.

I don't understand it either....if your their to learn then LEARN, if not then why bother???
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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