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#373700 - 12/10/07 10:03 AM Overtraining...
mad_dog Offline
Mayor of Stupidtown

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 41
...or what is your body capable of?

On this forum I read many times about overtraining and that we should avoid it. Some people say that you can overtrain by training hard 6 days a week. (By hard training I mean a few hours in a gym or more or less serious martial arts school)
But not so long ago I looked through websites of muay thai schools in Thailand (planning to go there this summer). So... a standart training is... 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the afternoon (example http://www.muaythaiporpramuk.com/index.php?action=traning&laung=en). And everyone knows that a average skill level of thai boxers in Thailand is much higher than in other countries.
Another example. I needed money badly (before a party) one day. So I found an ad in a newspaper that loaders are needed for one day. The work was extremely hard (we had to carry crates ~ 40kgs each for 8 hours from one place to container). The thing is that some guys are working there 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. In fact, some of them have been working there for years. And they are really strong...

But I heard that some people say that training 2 hours a day, 6 days a week is already overtraining (if trainings are really hard). What is the problem here? Why it is so? Or maybe it is just related with improper nutrition? Or something else?
Discuss.


Edited by mad_dog (12/10/07 10:05 AM)

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#373701 - 12/10/07 10:15 AM Re: Overtraining... [Re: mad_dog]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Over-training is a personal issue, IMHO. If you are doing more damage than good to yourself (either physically or mentally), then you are over-training. Some people can train for extended durations at very high levels, while others cannot. Finiding the correct balance relative to your goals will determine the proper amount/type of training.
_________________________
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#373702 - 12/10/07 10:33 AM Re: Overtraining... [Re: mad_dog]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Is it
Overtraining
or
not recovering

I think it is complicated.
I tend to over train / dont recover at times.
Then my brain goes into lethargic mode.
Time to ease back.

Very complicated. The working/ lifting 40kg loads everday that I could handle. Training in thai boxing for 8 hours no way.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/10/07 10:35 AM)

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#373703 - 12/10/07 10:46 AM Re: Overtraining... [Re: jude33]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Everyone needs rest and recovery, but the term overtraining does seem to get thrown about a bit too much.
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#373704 - 12/10/07 11:00 AM Re: Overtraining... [Re: mad_dog]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

...or what is your body capable of?

On this forum I read many times about overtraining and that we should avoid it. Some people say that you can overtrain by training hard 6 days a week. (By hard training I mean a few hours in a gym or more or less serious martial arts school)
But not so long ago I looked through websites of muay thai schools in Thailand (planning to go there this summer). So... a standart training is... 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the afternoon (example http://www.muaythaiporpramuk.com/index.php?action=traning&laung=en). And everyone knows that a average skill level of thai boxers in Thailand is much higher than in other countries.
Another example. I needed money badly (before a party) one day. So I found an ad in a newspaper that loaders are needed for one day. The work was extremely hard (we had to carry crates ~ 40kgs each for 8 hours from one place to container). The thing is that some guys are working there 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. In fact, some of them have been working there for years. And they are really strong...

But I heard that some people say that training 2 hours a day, 6 days a week is already overtraining (if trainings are really hard). What is the problem here? Why it is so? Or maybe it is just related with improper nutrition? Or something else?
Discuss.




You have to consider the nuances that differentiate 'training' from 'activity'.

Training involves working at an intensity that is beyond your ability to sustain all day long. This triggers a reaction in your physiology that improves its baseline attributes.

'activity' involves physical exertion within your physical limits that you can sustain for as long as necessary. Your example of 40kg boxes is perfect- the workers are using their bodies to do a job, they are not doing the job to use their bodies. They take a rest when they are tired- they dont stress about keeping in their cardio zone, they pace themselves, not push themselves. They have coffe breaks, lunch breaks, smoke breaks.

Even with these energy saving aspects, after only one day there, you have no idea of volume of sickness/injury days taken per employee per annum, nor turnover of staff- many such physicaly repetetive jobs chew up and spit out staff in very short rotation, and their bodies pay the price for ever more.

In the case of professional athletes, sure they push their bodies to extremes- but how many years do they train for? How many pro fighters are still at their peak and with no signs of wear and tear at the age of 35? Not many. How many are still able to train at 60?

For those in that elite minority, the sacrifice is worth it for the glory and money, they then face the trade off of problems in later life.

For you and I, and the 9,999 out of 10,000 other people reading this, the smart move is to use exercise and MA to enhance and safeguard our bodies, giving us a shot at a long and consistently active life, not grind it into dust in a misguided attempt to emulate a training montage from Rocky 4.

Training should be efficient, and effective. If I can achieve the same results in half an hour as I can in 2 hours, then why waste time and put 90 mins unecessary stress on the body? To say that 'I train 2 hours a day'. Thats not training the body, thats building the ego.
Quality over quantity every time.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#373705 - 12/10/07 01:26 PM Re: Overtraining... [Re: mad_dog]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Overtraining has a very specific meaning. To overtrain is to stress the body with such frequency and/or intensity that it cannot fully recover. Plenty of manual workers are "overtrained" (or more precisely, overworked). They may be quite strong, but suffer from chronic fatique, joint pain, stress fractures, etc.

The same may be true for Thai boxers. My brother has lived in Thailand for years and has told me few professional Thai boxers retire without permanent, chronic injuries. Some are no doubt impact related, but plenty seem to have problems with overtraining.

The specific training schedule you described may be designed to prevent overtraining. I'll bet the fighters train hard twice a day but rest a lot in between. If a person is young, that may be enough.

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#373706 - 12/10/07 01:48 PM Re: Overtraining... [Re: fileboy2002]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Youth is certainly a good tool but not the only tool. We all age and it is always good to practice good habits now so that when we are older we can still continue to train.

Over-training is something I have to deal with all of the time. Between weight lifting and martial arts I have to find a balance which I still to this day find extremely hard. I stress my body to push my self lifting weights and then when I should be resting the next day I'm pushing myself at martial arts. In fact I used to do both on the same day 5 days a week that had very negative results. In the past when I was younger in my late 20's and early 30's I could get away with less rest but not now and why I always have to recheck what I'm doing and change things up and also take more breaks.

Everybody is different and some can get away with it more then others. I can't and I pay the price whether it is being tired, getting sick more often, strength goes down, energy levels go down, loss of appetite, fatigued during the day, etc.

The Thai fighter analogy while it may be true, Fileboy is correct and that there are far and few older Thai fighters plus they all will pay for it later in life.

As for the work analogy, that is work just like Cord explained it. I used to do manual labor while working in construction. I would shovel, jack-hammer, lift heavy stuff and the such all day for 8-10 hours. I would do this day in and day out. While this is stress on the body it is adaptable. It is not excessive stress say like when I weight lift where I'm putting the maximum of effort to get the most results in the shortest period of time. I'm working at higher levels then these hard workers which means I'm burning out faster and my body cannot get used to it like the steady pace they do.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#373707 - 12/11/07 11:27 AM Re: Overtraining... [Re: Dereck]
Bunny_Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 48
Hmmm I train around 5 hours every day, 7 days a week. Basically I never take a break. And my body feels just fine. The only change that is happening to my body is that I'm getting stronger ^^

I don't believe that there's overtraning. You train as much as you can, that is, as much as your body can take. You set your own limits according to your physical and mental capabilities.

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#373708 - 12/11/07 11:28 AM Re: Overtraining... [Re: Bunny_Warrior]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ok.
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#373709 - 12/11/07 11:35 AM Re: Overtraining... [Re: Bunny_Warrior]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Hmmm I train around 5 hours every day, 7 days a week. Basically I never take a break. And my body feels just fine. The only change that is happening to my body is that I'm getting stronger ^^

I don't believe that there's overtraning. You train as much as you can, that is, as much as your body can take. You set your own limits according to your physical and mental capabilities.




If you are able to train for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week, then you are simply not training hard enough. When intensity is at the correct level, such duration of exertion is impossible.
Its like being pleased that you walked a marathon in 9 hours and seeing that as better than having run in it in 4
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