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#372804 - 12/05/07 03:13 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: JKogas]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

This is nonsense. Just when you think you've seen and heard it all....

This is easily seen for what it is. Take a guy and for a year, have him do nothing but kata for 2 hours per session, three sessions per week. Take another guy, same age, height, weight, and have him involved in alive sparring and drilling for the same duration, times, etc.

At the end of that year, have them fight ten times. The guy with sparring experience wins 9 of them (if not ALL of them...but I've giving kata guys a small benefit of a doubt). I really don't even think it would be CLOSE. Just my opinion.

I'd bet this would be pretty easily demonstrated if one was so willing.


-John




I can't argue with that. But 10 years later, if he truly gets the worth of kata, and also spars, my money is on the well-rounded one.
_________________________

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#372805 - 12/05/07 03:23 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: Ironfoot]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I can't argue with that. But 10 years later, if he truly gets the worth of kata, and also spars, my money is on the well-rounded one.




Well said. !

Quote:


Yes, I know, the thing is I am doing what JKogas did. The article was not about alive training, it was about kata versus sparring. In Kogas' attempt to prove his point he morphed sparring to include all alive training and defined kata to only include simple kata performance. I was ignoring the premise of what he said just like he ignored the article's comparison of kata to sparring. Just as the article was nonsense in its misunderstanding of karate training and kata's relation to alive training so was Kogas' post.





Some guys on here make the brain, and peoples ability to read things correctly, work harder. ( I mean myself in that sentence)

Good stuff. This thread was an education in itself!
Why do I have this tingling effect in my brain?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/05/07 03:32 AM)

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#372806 - 12/05/07 09:01 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: JKogas]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
JKogas

Your probably right--IF we were talking about a "kata ONLY" regimen.

But were not---in many schools kata is only part of an overall training methodolgy.

Besides, it kinda depends on what kind of "sparring" you have the other guys do.
If were talking about the high speed games of "tag" that pass for "sparring" at most open tounaments then I really don't think that would help you much in a real fight either.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#372807 - 12/05/07 10:52 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: cxt]
Blackrainbow Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 220
Loc: Brandon Fl.USA
This is probably the oldest and most tired and worn out subject in the MA's. I see it this way. If you don't like coffee then stay out of the Starbucks store. There are plenty of MA systems available that don't practice kata. If you do not see any value in it then just leave. I fail to understand people who will spend years studying a particular style only to decide that half of the curriculum should be discarded just because they don't believe in it. My dojo is not a democracy. I encourage my students to ask questions at the appropriate times and I go to great effort to explain the reasoning behind everything I do. I also tell my students that if there is ever a time that they no longer have faith in the validity of what I am teaching, please leave. I don't know of any of the old Okinawan masters who ever stated that kata alone would make you a great fighter. I can state for a fact That Shoshin Nagamine, who I trained with and knew quite well stated exactly the opposite. Kata is a tool. Just one part of the whole sum. Is kata needed to be a great fighter. I don't belive so. But if you take it out of my system then I am no longer teaching that style as prescribed and my teaching is no longer legitimate under the rules of that organiztion. If you don't want to follow the rules then just go create your own style and call yourself "soke".
_________________________
You cannot defend against that which you do not understand

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#372808 - 12/05/07 10:56 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: MAGon]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello MAGon:

Far be it from me to disagree with Mr. Redmond, I have always enjoyed his... "biting experiences" which he articulates so well. However I also feel sad for him, in that the connection is not more blatently obvious for him.

There are levels of sparring. The 1/3/5 step versions are identical to kata and vice-versa. The "disconnect" comes when the sparring becomes so called free-sparring, and that answer seems fairly clear... to me at least.

Free sparring is a technical exchange between partners of ones best technique(s). Kata is designed to stop an attack intended to kill/harm/maim: Choke, grab, punch, bite, hurt from point blank range. If I were to be choked during sparring... if I were to be grabbed and then punched in an untrained manner, my response would be direct kata.

Free-sparring is several levels above that powerful primitive level. As such my response is still identical kata but in different, typically smaller pieces. The attacks are not even close to the norm for which kata was designed. A normal attack will not possess any of the technical prowess, or sophistication a trained martial artist owns. Hense the supposed "disconnect"...

Merely my opinion I could surely be mistaken,

Jeff

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#372809 - 12/05/07 11:45 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: Ronin1966]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Quote:

Free-sparring is several levels above that powerful primitive level. As such my response is still identical kata but in different, typically smaller pieces. The attacks are not even close to the norm for which kata was designed. A normal attack will not possess any of the technical prowess, or sophistication a trained martial artist owns. Hense the supposed "disconnect"...




This is something I came to recognize years ago & so articulately outlined in McCarthy's HAPV (Habitual Acts of Physical Violence) Theory. I teach my class that the chances of "us" coming up against another MA-ist is rare & that most people who engage in street fights tend to fight in similar ways (just look it up on all those street fight videos).

Sparring is a relatively new development in MA training & can be labeled "Gendai". That understood, the next question for "traditionalists" is, "if kumite is only about 100 yrs old, how did MA-ists train before systemized kumite was developed?".

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#372810 - 12/05/07 05:42 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: hedkikr]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Quote:

What most people miss is that kata & sparring are not mutually exclusive when it comes to the purpose of SD.

Peanut butter is good; jelly is good. Put them together & you have a better sandwich.

Sparring is fighting w/ rules so don't expect to save you A$$ w/ sparring; kata is too systematic to save you a$$. But if you take the fluidity & responsiveness of kumite & include some of the nasty little tricks of kata, you'll have a well-crafted SD system. The product is greater than the sum of it's parts.

Where's the controversy?




very nicely put
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#372811 - 12/05/07 07:53 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: shoshinkan]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Kata is NOT Sparring.
Sparring is NOT Self Defense.

Why do we constantly have to restate the obvious.

I believe that the Origins of Kata have been obfuscated and in some instances lost. This is similar to the original passages in the Bible, which have been mistranslated and misquoted over the ages.
(Light the touch paper and stand well back ).


We can try to find practical application within ancient kata, but it was really designed to help the fidgety to meditate. It was physical meditation devised by the Buddhist Monks, implemented in Asia. If Buddhists try to sleep without rolling over and potentially causing harm to insects, why the hell would they devise these sequences to inflict damage on other humans??? That would surely go against the primary Buddhist teachings!

When you have finished earnestly performing Kata over a prolonged period of time, you have a wider sense of spatial perception and feel more at ease.

Lets just Enjoy it for what it is and stop making it more complicated than it needs.
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#372812 - 12/05/07 08:07 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: GriffyGriff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Quote:

Kata is NOT Sparring.
Sparring is NOT Self Defense.

Why do we constantly have to restate the obvious.

I believe that the Origins of Kata have been obfuscated and in some instances lost. This is similar to the original passages in the Bible, which have been mistranslated and misquoted over the ages.
(Light the touch paper and stand well back ).


We can try to find practical application within ancient kata, but it was really designed to help the fidgety to meditate. It was physical meditation devised by the Buddhist Monks, implemented in Asia. If Buddhists try to sleep without rolling over and potentially causing harm to insects, why the hell would they devise these sequences to inflict damage on other humans??? That would surely go against the primary Buddhist teachings!

When you have finished earnestly performing Kata over a prolonged period of time, you have a wider sense of spatial perception and feel more at ease.

Lets just Enjoy it for what it is and stop making it more complicated than it needs.




with respect I need to disagree with you on this one.................

some kata for sure were developed for other things apart from fighting (and certainly some elements of kata have evolved that way), but to suggest no kata were developed for this reason is sheer lunacy IMO.

I guess you may have read Barefoot Zen, an excellent book IMO but wildley sceptical in some of its presentations.

Not wishing to be rude but I will not enter prolonged debate on this one, I will leave that to others.........
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#372813 - 12/05/07 09:04 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: GriffyGriff]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ok so kata's primary use for you is as a moving meditation. noted.

everyone sees and uses things differently based on what they perceive as to it's usefulness. not unlike in the movie Castaway when the main character doesn't think twice using paper bills to help start a fire. or even a tribesman emptying a bucket of gems into a river in order to make use of the bucket.

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