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#372794 - 12/04/07 07:21 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: MAGon]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
What most people miss is that kata & sparring are not mutually exclusive when it comes to the purpose of SD.

Peanut butter is good; jelly is good. Put them together & you have a better sandwich.

Sparring is fighting w/ rules so don't expect to save you A$$ w/ sparring; kata is too systematic to save you a$$. But if you take the fluidity & responsiveness of kumite & include some of the nasty little tricks of kata, you'll have a well-crafted SD system. The product is greater than the sum of it's parts.

Where's the controversy?

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#372795 - 12/04/07 08:22 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: hedkikr]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i'd like to think theres some kind of award we can give you for explaining it so clearly.....i love peanut butter and jelly sandwiches! and i love kata and kumite!! wooot!!
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#372796 - 12/04/07 08:53 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

This is nonsense. Just when you think you've seen and heard it all....

This is easily seen for what it is. Take a guy and for a year, have him do nothing but kata for 2 hours per session, three sessions per week. Take another guy, same age, height, weight, and have him involved in alive sparring and drilling for the same duration, times, etc.

At the end of that year, have them fight ten times. The guy with sparring experience wins 9 of them (if not ALL of them...but I've giving kata guys a small benefit of a doubt). I really don't even think it would be CLOSE. Just my opinion.

I'd bet this would be pretty easily demonstrated if one was so willing.


-John



Hi John.
I can see your valid points and the scenario you described I agree. But kata practice, application practice by two man drilling and in some cases live drilling (up to a point)
are from my studies part of the kata training. In karate.

Just in case you think some kata types are all pure kata I also take part in jujitsu/judo based grappling. Would like to do wrestling but we dont have it here in enough areas. Yet.
Still more or less a begginer but still train.

Jude




I don't want to speak for other people but I think you missed John's point.
Places that do kata do not necessarily "train" kata. Doing kata alone does nothing for fighting, the kata must be applied as much as possible.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#372797 - 12/04/07 09:08 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


John,
the way you put it is exactly right. Only doing kata does not help your fighting ability in my opinion, that just doesn't make sense.





Only doing kata won't help. We agree on that. What is the added element that DOES help? Sparring? (and aliveness.)

Then if logic holds that if it's the sparring (and aliveness) that provides that missing element, if we just train alive ALL the time when drilling and sparring, then we don't need kata at ALL, right? We also develop more quickly, right?


-John

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#372798 - 12/04/07 09:29 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:


John,
the way you put it is exactly right. Only doing kata does not help your fighting ability in my opinion, that just doesn't make sense.





Only doing kata won't help. We agree on that. What is the added element that DOES help? Sparring? (and aliveness.)




Putting the kata into action,but it's not sparring. Two man drills, reacting to certain attacks,etc..

Quote:

Then if logic holds that if it's the sparring (and aliveness) that provides that missing element, if we just train alive ALL the time when drilling and sparring, then we don't need kata at ALL, right? We also develop more quickly, right?


-John




Yes, but it's not just sparring. There are elements of kata that can not be trained alive.
You don't need kata and there are many people who do not.
Kata is the foundation of karate. If you don't do kata then you aren't doing kata. I like karate!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#372799 - 12/04/07 11:20 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: MAGon]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Folks,
The first thing I'd like to point out that the title Redmond's article is "The Relationship Between Kata and Kumite". MAGons thread which references it is the "Value of Kata". To me those are two different questions or points. I don't disagree with Redmond that they are completely different things. Saying that, does not mean that the practice of one will have no beneficial effect on the other, even if it is minor. It is not hard to make an argument that to do something well you have to do a lot of that activity. It stands to reason that if you wanted to be successful in competion kumite you would focus time and attention on that. If your goal was to be a World forms champion engaging in a lot of sparring could be counter productive to your goals.
Neither the article or the post puts forward either practice as effective in preparing someone to fight though the thread will ultimately cover that ground again. It stands to reason that preparing to fight, or training to fight, if that were a practitioners primary focus would need to be trained with that goal in mind. I guess I should say if you want to fight really well rather than just "fight" since anyone can participate in them whether they care to train or not.

So, "The Relationship Between Kata and Kumite"? They are related in "Shotokan" by history and practice. We are not and will not be the last to question their individual or combined value. Personaly if my goal was to be the most effective fighter in the shortest time possible I would not choose Shotokan or my practice (Chung do Kwan) as the vehicle to get me there.

Kata, sparring, fighting, to excel in any of they may can contribute and or take away from the execution of another.

As far as the "Value of Kata", for me? I continue to practice them as I continue to find value in them. They are one of the many practices that I feel are helping me make progress toward personal goals. I may take the time one day to try to articulate what value I find in them. The easiest way may be to say that currently for me (they are a healthy part of a balanced diet).

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#372800 - 12/04/07 11:21 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: jude33]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
I just posted to the Kata and Applications thread: "Why do you practice kata?" I believe my post touches on a number of issues. It is only recently that some traditional Shotokan schools are attempting to effective map of kata movements to fighting, and one reason I discuss in my post is that there are too many kata.

Another, IMO, is that Shotokan kata are more artificial approximations of fighting due to the deep stances. But the emphasis of kata, without application, makes it difficult to develop fighting techniques that can have some utility in sparring.

Which brings me to sparring. Shotokan sparring does not necessarily map to 100% to fighting. There is little in attacks and counter attacks to the head (which is a safe way to train). And many of the locks and throws found in kata are effective only if you get the first technique in dazing or disorienting the attacker. You don't get those opportunities in sparring. Generally, if you do clock in guy in the face so much so that his head is knocked back, you have to back off. Let's just say that this would probably not be the optimal time to follow up with the groin or knee kick, designed to bring the head down enough so you can get that hook in to the temple or neck. That's just not the way sparring works. Sparring is a model of fighting which requires safe techniques. Fighting is a system that does not use safe techniques.

Shotokan sparring and Shotokan kata are both models of fighting, both with good points and weak points. It is a challenge to develop fighting applications from kata that map to fighting, and then further map to sparring. With so many kata, that challenge is even greater.

Kakushite

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#372801 - 12/04/07 11:34 PM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

This is nonsense. Just when you think you've seen and heard it all....

This is easily seen for what it is. Take a guy and for a year, have him do nothing but kata for 2 hours per session, three sessions per week. Take another guy, same age, height, weight, and have him involved in alive sparring and drilling for the same duration, times, etc.

At the end of that year, have them fight ten times. The guy with sparring experience wins 9 of them (if not ALL of them...but I've giving kata guys a small benefit of a doubt). I really don't even think it would be CLOSE. Just my opinion.

I'd bet this would be pretty easily demonstrated if one was so willing.


-John




JKogas, you may be unfamiliar with kata training in karate, or maybe effective kata training, but it is much more than just performing a kata. Just as sparring is more than going full blast all the time. Your analogy is incorrect. A more accurate analogy would be have one guy do kata for a year. And you spar with another full blast everyday for a year. I guarantee that the kata guy will win because the guy that sparred full blast everyday will be too battered and beat up to beat anyone.

Now I know that when utilizing sparring it encompasses more that simply going full blast trying to hurt your opponent every training session. Well news flash, kata training encompasses much more than simply kata performance. Its easy to make one's art look good when stating an inaccurate opinion as a fact. However, if you take the time to understand what others do, then it may actually shed some light on other training methods you may not know.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#372802 - 12/05/07 12:13 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
But that's not what John said at all.

Kata only vs. alive training.

Alive training wins,duh.

WE know what kata training consists of, or should. But, kata training vs just doing kata needs to be explained to the masses, even most karateka.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#372803 - 12/05/07 12:54 AM Re: Value of kata (Groan!!!!), revisited. [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, I know, the thing is I am doing what JKogas did. The article was not about alive training, it was about kata versus sparring. In Kogas' attempt to prove his point he morphed sparring to include all alive training and defined kata to only include simple kata performance. I was ignoring the premise of what he said just like he ignored the article's comparison of kata to sparring. Just as the article was nonsense in its misunderstanding of karate training and kata's relation to alive training so was Kogas' post.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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